The Holocaust is Overrated

Are my eyes deceiving me, or did the OP describe mass genocide on an industrial scale as "overrated"? Obviously he considers rationality and sensible, considered thought as equally overrated, and deserving of equally little attention.

As we all know, the Holocaust was one of the central events of the Second World War, which, in turn, was one of the most significant—if not the most significant—events in all of human history. Overrated, my dear friend, it most certainly is not.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by Brad.T]

[edit on 17-1-2008 by Brad.T]

I can see where you're coming from actually...

Im in Year 11 (10th Grade) + I took history + we are learning about it for the 7th time in my school life... I'm now incredibly bored with it....

As for it being the worst thing to happen in history, it could possibly be... A hell of alot of people died for no good reason. It is fairly serious no matter how boring the subject is

Laura x

OK, everyone complaining about the word 'overrated' can stop wasting our time citing dictionary entries. So it wasn't the best word to choose in that context. Get over it. You know what the poster meant or you wouldn't be complaining about word usage in the first place.

He wrote 'overrated' he meant 'overblown.'

Now, that that is taken care of maybe we can start discussing the message of the OP and not the thread title.

Originally posted by Brad.T
As we all know, the Holocaust was one of the central events of the Second World War, which, in turn, was one of—if not the—most significant event in all of human history. Overrated, my dear friend, it most certainly is not.

Oddly enough, you just proved the OP right. WW2 and all the events related to it are vastly overblown by our history textbooks. How can anyone honestly say WW2 was the most significant event in human history?

If you ignore the propaganda they teach you in school and examine the history of humanity, several points in our history stand out as several orders of magnitude more important than some silly land-dispute lasting about a decade:

• The fall of the Roman Empire and the resulting thousand years of ignorance, illiteracy, starvation, and constantly decreasing life expectancy
  
• The rape and conquest of the New World.
  
• The rise of farming, the plow, and civilisation along the Fertile Crescent and the Nile river valley some 10k years ago.
  
• Hell, even the Mongols and the their hordes had far more impact on humanity, even to this day, than WW2.
  
• If you just want to talk about numbers and Europe (something very common for people with a euro-centric education), what about the numbers involved in Napoleon's campaigns? Lets not forget the historical impact (both positive and negative) that those campaigns had on the politics in Europe and the middle east.
  

This is by no means a comprehensive list of all the historical events that WW2 pales in comparison to.

Jon

EDITunctuation

[edit on 1.17.2008 by Voxel]

Teaching about what happend in WW2 only to hope it won't happen again is pointless.

Look at our opertation freedom thats been going on and I'm pretty sure there's a holocaust going on right now in Africa.

Plenty of Jewish people have said there no better then the Nazi's now for what thery're doing to the Palestinians.

So much for teaching.

I remember being told once that the reason the holocaust is discussed and mentioned as often as it is (might have heard this in hebrew school, might have been regular school) is to ensure that we never forget. Forgetting something like this allows it to happen again.

So guess we have forgotten quite a bit since 1945.... our we don't care?

China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50, 49-78,000,000
Afghanistan, 1979-1982, 900,000
Ethiopia, 1975-78, 1,500,000
Biafra (Nigeria), 1967-1970 1,000,000
Rwanda, 1994 800,000
Cambodia 1,700,000
Angola, 1975-2002, 400,000
East Timor, West Papua, 1966-98 800,000
Yugoslavia 180,000
Pakistan, 1971, 500,000

Darfur TBD

and the list goes on and on and on
and will always go on....

my 2 cents worth

Sorry Crakeur, but there is little sense or logic in that statement. Holocaust was a big part of war? Was extermination of millions of Belorussians a lesser event? Who in the United States even knows where Belarus is?

Do you know what was the percentage of Russian males, born 1920-1922, still alive on May 8, 1945? I would like to know what your guess it.

That is NOT a Question of QUANTITY.

If SHOAH is equal to other warcrimes, then killing a hundreds of babies equals killing a criminal in self-defense.

Food for thought.

I thought "overrated" would attract more attention. It's more scandalous that way.

but yea, there is so much focus on the Holocaust. How many of the regular people out there can name more than 2 or 3 genocides that occurred in history other than the Holocaust? There have been genocides of greater scale but they just don't really teach it. I mean in history classes prior to college, do you go in depth about any other genocides?

Originally posted by Voxel
OK, everyone complaining about the word 'overrated' can stop wasting our time citing dictionary entries. So it wasn't the best word to choose in that context. Get over it. You know what the poster meant or you wouldn't be complaining about word usage in the first place.

He wrote 'overrated' he meant 'overblown.'

Well hey, thanks for the lecture.

The OP's written this;

thought "overrated" would attract more attention. It's more scandalous that way.

So he knew what he was writing.

As for ;

Now, that that is taken care of maybe we can start discussing the message of the OP and not the thread title.

Isn't that what was being done?

Describing textbook history as "propaganda" and dismissing WW2 as "some silly land-dispute lasting about a decade" is interesting though.

Why do you choose to say that? Yes, the victors and survivors write the history books, but that argument applies to all of the things you list in your post. Is that all "propaganda" as well?

So while I agree that there are other genocidal events that have occurred with a similar or larger death toll, and said as much in my post above, I'm just wondering what angle you are approaching this from, as you seem to want to imply that the most devastating war in history "pales into insignificance" with other events ?

Hello.
A: WWII was an inormous tragedy for HUGE amount of people.
B: There were other inormously tragic events in the history of humanity.
C: However........ In WWII a (you can put any nation) polish citizen
of whatever disent didn't automaticaly get murdered by Nazi's.
Polish (you can put any nation) jew was persecuted because he was a jew. Manpower from all of ocupied territories was used for labor, Jewish manpower was scheduled for extermination. In America Spanish wiped out a whole civilization however if local adopted christianity - he was spared. Even if Jew expressed a will to go and join SS - his fate would be no different than any other jew.
It's not that suffering of jews is above suffering of everyone else,
it's because jewish final solution was not second rate citizens or slaves for the reich (as say polish or russian) but a total extermination.
D: If you can bring similar event against any nation with similar "effectiveness" (50% killed) i will agree that this event also should be taught separately.
E: The Holocaust is overused for political, financial and even peronal reasons. This doesn't meen that it was not as awfull as it was/
F: ank U for attention.

Originally posted by Voxel
He wrote 'overrated' he meant 'overblown.'

An equally ridiculous term...

How about emphasized? That might have been a better and more productive choice. (Of course, the OP admits to seeking an attention-grabbing title...)

The Holocaust is likely emphasized in American education because nearly 40% of all Jews on the planet live here in the United States. Moreover, they also represent one of our largest ethnic groups who happen to have been subject to genocide in the recent past. ( Link and Link )

Few could also argue the significant historical nexus that exists between American history, WWII and the Holocaust.

Where's the confusion?

Finally, I take exception to the OP's implication that we are somehow taught by our education system that the "Holocaust is the single worst event in human history."

Find me a widely used textbook in our public schools with that exact phrase.



This thread is a thinly veiled attempt to promote an altogether different kind of agenda.

Genocide, wherever it may be found, is a despicable thing. I find minimizing this one example of it.....tasteless and in bad form.

My $.02.



[edit on 17-1-2008 by loam]

Ok I'll bite. Let's put a string theory twist on this and in another reality the OP is the last remaiming member of his extended jewish family with a barcode on his forearm. He's watched his siblings and parents die. He himself is mostly bones. He has watched the bulldozers trowel the dead into mass graves. 'Overated?' You are one ignorant azz. You will have to live with this thread in ats history. So glad I am not you. I am reminded of the pbs series of the holocaust. Thousands of emaciated bulldozed in mass graves. If that doesn't move you, you are dead inside.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by jpm1602]

Did anyone ever meditated, why the Jews was the primary target of the Holocaust? No? Well. Study a bit of history and you will learn it.

By the way, they're starting to piss of the world again as they did back in 1933 (Yes, and not in 1938 as they're stating. There was something back in 1933 what is erased from most of the history books. That was the cause, which is brought Holocaust as the effect. Not they were the primary victims of that era. Germany was the victim of their acts. But Germany simply stepped up against them as now many of the countries are starting to do the same.). One thing is sure. They never learn from their own mistakes and from their own past.

Here is a small fact, why do I telling this.
On the world, the minority is causing most of the problem right now. All over the world, the minority, protected by the Jewish media, is making most of the crimes in all ways (There are few exceptions of these people, but very few.). Gypsy criminals are existing all over in Europe (Italy, Germany, Hungary, just to name a few), just as the Black crime is risen throughout the United States. Officially it's not existing, because the media is telling this... but the people of these countries are experiencing the opposite day by day and the number of these crimes are rising rapidly. Why do the Jews are protecting these people? Because their votes are counting for them. Unfortunately most people of these minorities are uneducated and can be controlled. But maybe as most of you experienced, people throughout the world have enough about lies and delusions. I'm not telling that all the Jews are evil, because there are good ones, a.k.a. Non-Zionists, but they're very few in numbers. Plus, there are no news day by day without the problems of the Zionist state of Israel and their warmongering to make war against Iran (And as we all know, they're not making any nukes since 2003. They knew this, the U.S. knew this. And now, we knows this.)

So, back to the beginning, why did I told this to you.
Back in 1933, the Jewish people (Zionists) are declared war against Germany, just as they want to do with Iran. They wanted to control that nation, they tried to delude that nation on the similar way as they doing nowadays and what is most important, they wanted to plunder that nation as they doing it with my country, Hungary (Don't need to worry about us. We have a nice and pretty resistance, ready to take our country back.). So, as you're seeing, there is a similar pattern in history. It seems history is going to repeat itself on the old way. But... and here comes the but, which is coming from overreacted.

The Holocaust is overreacted? Yes. Definitely. As many data shows, approximately 238000 Jewish people died in the Holocaust due to illness. There are many photos where they claimed that those victims on the photos are Jews... but they were Hungarian civ victims of the siege of Budapest, which was in 1944 (Hint: There were no yellow cross on the vics at all, while they needed to wear it. Well. The legends are saying this.). This number is also a sad data, but it's not 6 million as they're stating. And even if it would be true as they're stating, these numbers are not giving them the right to kill the Palestinians.

So, what is the Holocaust? Pure propaganda. Propaganda, which is giving an ultimate cover and give a right to kill, to steal, to lie.

I know many are going to attack my statements now, friends of the terror state of Israel and people of the Jewish community (Sorry for those ones, whose are living a clean life, because I'm not intended to harm them with this collective name. For them, I wish a long and peaceful life.). But one thing is sure. Sooner or later the people will have to decide which will be that side where they're going to join. Oh. And before anyone would tell me, that I'm a Nazi... one thing what I learned from the Jewish propaganda. Who is not on their side, it's a Nazi. If you hate Israel, because your sense is not capable to accept the senseless killing, you're a Nazi. We learned this here in Hungary. All the Hungarians, all those citizens whose are loving his beloved home country, our small and beautiful holy land, our culture is called as a Nazi. Yes. You read this right. Nazis, because we're not agreeing with the Jews, whose are plundering our nation, want to steal our lands. I hope none of you will have to live and experience this as we experienced it in the last two years.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by Dark Crystalline]

Ah Jeez here we go. It's the jews fault they all got murdilated. We got some really sick freaks out there. I think I'm going to throw up or be ill.
'sorry for those ones', no I'm just sorry I have to share the planet with knuckheads like you.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by jpm1602]

reply to post by italkyoulisten


lets see you live through what happened and then see how you feel about it

Honestly. Have you ever heard from any Jewish person: Yes, something is our fault. (In any case.)

No. We never heard this in greater situations, because they never able to take responsibility for anything and I believe we're not going to hear this in the future too. So, I'm not willing to hear this in this case too. It's not my problem if the people of the Jewish community are not willing to face with the consequences of their actions. Many things were their fault before 1939. Many things. Do you believe that the Germans, or the Italians, or the Hungarians, or even the Spanish just simply specialized themselves against the Jews on why not basis? No. The Jews are gave a reason for it. As they always did. I just learned this here in Hungary. Counteractions, or as you're calling it, Nazi actions (i.e. home defense, love of our own country, love our past, love of our culture) are the effects of those causes, what they did in the past. That's what most of the people in the Jewish community are unable to realize or simply unable to accept in his mind, because they believe that they're faultless and they're over everyone.

My country is a proud country, with great history (That's another fact that our nation, our culture, even our ancient letters are quite older then the Jewish nation and culture itself, but they also want to vanish this from the history books, because it's hurting their damned interests and fabricated past.). They also want to seize our land, because the mythological heart of Earth can be found in my country (It's not on the so called holy land, it's here in Hungary.). My country always gave refuge to the Jews, because while we're a proud warrior nation, my nation is a noble nation too. But... they betrayed my country and my people. Always. They betrayed my country all the times, when they've seen a chance to betray it, to sold it, even under the Second World War. Before that, the Hungarians treated them as equal citizens. So tell me again, whose fault that they're creating their own enemy? Always throughout the history.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by Dark Crystalline]

reply to post by Dark Crystalline


hey dark crystalling, i know this is off topic

but are you an actual indigo opposite?

are you mad and angry and want to stop 2012? just curious

OFF:
Actually a Crystalline is similar to Indigo, but you're mistaking. I don't have any connection to 2012. I have connection to few things, but not for this. Do you know what will be in that year? Many things, i.e. Olympia and presumably if the next U.S. president will fail, another election. Oh. And my birthday, Christmas and a New Year, which will bring us to 2013. If you're thinking for some sort of end of the world, Armageddon, here comes Planet X... well, by my knowledge, it will be a same year as the previous ones. Well. I hope, because my plan is to get married around that time to the most beautiful and kindest woman that I ever met, so I want to skip this Armageddon hanky-panky. I'm not a "Here comes the end of the world", "We're all doomed, because the Mayan calendar ends that time" guy. Well. All the calender ends one day and we always get a new one. Unfortunately the Mayans didn't have a chance to make their own new edition, because most of them are disappeared in the meantime.

So, what's your point with this question? Curiosity or just simply "try to make a fool about the one, who is writing down these things" action? Well. I believe you want the second one.

I am extremely saddened by the postulating of some to say murderous behaviour is ever warranted or acceptable.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by jpm1602]

reply to post by Dark Crystalline




jews, gyspies and blacks all in one hate filled post. congrats. that has to be an ATS record.

and please refrain from history lessons regarding Hungary. We've been over this. Your nation has a steep anti-jewish history, except for the periods when they needed money. Then the jews were your friends.

what I never understood is why they allowed themselves to be abused by nations such as yours, over and over again, only to be tossed out and mistreated whenever a leader felt threatened by their presence or power.

stop, wait. don't respond to it. you want to but don't. it will be a total waste of your time. until you acknowledge your nation's true history, your crying foul of every group, other than your own, will fall on deaf ears.

"overrated". Hmmm...

Not sure how you can overrate the systematic industrialized murder of many millions of people deemed undesirable by the state of Germany. Jews, Gentiles, Gypsies, Homosexuals, the mentally handicapped, enemies of the state. How many tens of millions would it take for it not to be "overrated" "overblown", etc...?

Oh, and if this makes me a friend of Israel, so be it.

The history of the other holocausts connected with the Shoah are there for the investigation. The very fact that you mention them at all proves that.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by seagull]