The Holocaust is Overrated

reply to post by Freeborn


There´s a scale from 1 to 10. On 10 you have the extremist revisionist that will go as far as to claim "there was no Holocaust" and you will have the opposite opinion on 1.

I will accept the views 2-8. You seem to be a six-ish kind of person to me
I hold a three-ish type of view.

But many in this specific area hold a 10 view while pretending to hold a 6-8 view because they think that the 10 view is being suppressed or they can sell people the 10 view if they offer them the soft stuff on 6-8 first.

Sorry for sounding technical but you get the point.

Originally posted by intrepid
Whoa, hold on for a second. I thought the purpose of this thread was to bring Asian atrocities to light. Are we seeing the true purpose behind this thread now? The title sure proves that.

Intrepid, you are right it did get slightly off topic.

I think that this is also due in part to some of the responses. They may have taken the original idea to a different but related area of questioning. The original question proposed elicited a defensive stance from some so then the topic turned to the question of why it should and that there seems to be a pattern of stonewalling such questions. You have to also understand that there may not be ONE absolute answer to the original posters query in spite of what some people have claimed. As I pointed out there are a number of scholars (yes some that are Israeli) that have different answers as to why the amount of focus. Yet in here we only get a reaction along the lines of “here is the only answer now go away and shut up”. What kind of attitude is that? As I said even if it was valid the venom isn't warranted.

That is baloney to me, and not the turkey kind I like.

I think that the OP’s subsequent statements on the defensiveness of such questions is a somewhat reasonable assertion to make but maybe I am missing something and this whole thread was designed to generate a different reaction. Although I have seen a few threads that were more on the blatant side of the bigotry coin that didn’t have this many Mods involved. Some of those James Watson ones come to mind.

If the Mods truly believe this thread is a smear campaign and that those who contributed are all anti-Semitic knuckleheads then why not just close it and not beat around the bush or wait for clearer justification?

Originally posted by neformore
Up until Sunday I was not an ATS moderator. On Sunday I was lucky enough to be asked to be one.

Oh I hadn’t actually noticed.
Congratz, Neformore.

- Lee

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
I think the great thing about this thread is that I'm proven right whenever some random person gets morally outraged and calls me an anti-semite. Seriously, the Holocaust is a drop in the ocean that is history.

It really brings it down to the question of how much free will do we actually have?

You can say that we are taught so much about the Holocaust so we can never forget it, but is that to mean it's ok to forget other equally horrific atrocities that are left out?

I understand the point you are and have been making. I don't think, though we disagree, that I've ever suggested you were anti-semitic. Though I do have my suspicions about the agenda of some of the posters who have supported your side of the argument, I don't deny that.

Where we disagree, I think, is on what's behind the prominence of the Holocaust in our history, and whether that prominence is a worthy thing.

I think my points on that front have been repeated several times in this thread, but by way of summary, here's where I stand.

1. Practicability of Source material
   
   The plentiful source material on the holocaust makes it ideal teaching material. Documents like the diary of Anne Frank, written by a school girl, make it easy to see how school children can relate to the topic. It's simply practical - and while there are those who feel over exposed to the topic, I can't imagine that a statistical analysis of Russian deaths on the Eastern Front would engage pupils in the same way.
   
   
2. Existing family links to holocaust period
   
   You call it a drop in the ocean, but the fact of the matter is that we are still (just about) inside the generation which was affected by the holocaust. The fact that there are large Jewish communities living both in the US and the UK, for example, means that a large number of us knows a family that was or still is directly affected.
   
   
3. Irrelevance of holocaust guilt to Israel's contemporary politics
   
   I seriously contest the strength of the connection between the world's guilt at the holocaust and Israel's (at times viscious) foreign policy. I disagree that countries would sit back and allow Israel to do whatever it wants simply because they suffered in the war. I also don't believe modern Israel uses the holocaust to excuse itself. I think it acts as it does to protect itself against its current enemies, which are real and a threat.
   
   
   
4. Debunking of holocaust denial
   
   No serious historian regards holocaust revisionist theories with any great respect. The reason for this is that revisionist theories make the mistake of giving too much respect to conjecture simply because it is alternative, and too little respect to existing evidence on the basis that aspects of it can be questioned. This over-eagerness to revise is overwhelmed by the strength of the evidence not to. For more on this, including posted links to evidence, and to thorough debunking of holocaust deniers, see this thread.
   
   
5. Direction of modern holocaust memorial organisations
   
   Have a look at the site for the US Holocaust Museum in Washington. Website is here. Have a look at the work they are doing to promote America's awareness of and reaction to genocide. This isn't about a zionist campaign, it's about remembering for the future.
   

You are right to say we should all be aware of all the other genocides that have happened. You are quite wrong to suggest that The Holocaust is the enemy of our doing so.

LW

Originally posted by Freeborn
On thread,
As has been clearly displayed during this thread, the "sanctity" of The Holocaust is complete and little or no discussion is allowed on the subject.

But why the reluctance to discuss it and related topics?

Is it because The Allies knew more about the concentration camps and chose, rightly or wrongly, to do nothing about it until the end of the war?
Is it to vindicate and justify the Israeli nation?
Is it perpetuated by Jewish vested interests in MSM?

These and many other questions need answering but the current climate discourages debate of any kind.

Sorry for the double post - but I have to take issue here. Where is the reluctance to discuss it? Austria may have anti-denial laws - I can't speak for Austria - but here you are allowed to discuss whatever you like, and indeed we have done so over 16 pages and a number of days now. What makes you talk about "sanctity" and not being allowed to discuss it? What does this thread demonstrate but the complete opposite?

No one will attack you for raising questions about the holocaust. A sensitive handling of the topic is necessary because it is still so emotive to a lot of people, but there's nothing to stop you debating the issues. And this site is not alone in that regard, either. There are plenty of other resources that debate them. Try out this link, for example.

I don't quite understand the martyred attitude of those who post revisionist theories and find themselves faced with disagreement. The reason you are faced with disagreement is that the arguments aren't very convincing. If you persist with arguments that have no merit, people might start to question your motives, I suppose. In this field, it's hardly rocket science to work out why, is it?

But this site at the moment has two or three current threads on the subject. No one's sending anyone to prison or banning the threads. They're disagreeing when the arguments are nonsense. That's what debate is. Isn't it?

LW

Originally posted by Skyfloating
There´s a scale from 1 to 10. (snip) You seem to be a six-ish kind of person to me

I hold a three-ish type of view.

But many in this specific area hold a 10 view while pretending to hold a 6-8 view because they think that the 10 view is being suppressed or they can sell people the 10 view if they offer them the soft stuff on 6-8 first.

This is how things get off topic.

We don't need to rate each other on the bigot-meter. There are plenty of hate sites out there or loosely moderated forums where people can "have at it" I am sure without holding anything back. No one needs to come to ATS as a secret racist double-agent. The people here with those sort of views have usually made them quite clear one way or another but it is wrong to start suspiciously accusing people.

Some people do have conspiracy theories regarding Israel that isn't a slam against the entire Jewish race just like the ones written up on the States isn't about every American. How they write them up is another thing.

I would be naive to assume that there are no bigots signed up on here but that line of thinking is really not interesting to me. I just don't really care what a person secretly feels if they don't have the guts to deliver and the wantons to take the heat.

I've told people I believe I'd seen alien beings (still do) knowing full well I'd be called crazy and/or mocked, so clearly I don't fall under that category.

P.S. My quote edits...also I've never been certified insane as of yet.

- Lee

reply to post by LoneWeasel


I absolutely do not agree with item number 5 on your list. It doesn't seem to be working. It's been how many years already? And how long has the campaign to 'remember the Holocaust' lasted. Genocides still happen. They're happening in Darfur now. Heck, it even happened in the Europe not too very long ago (after Yugoslavia exploded).

For the life of me, I really couldn't figure out what the purpose of repeatedly reminding people of it is for, except to produce the emotive responses you talked about in your subsequent post. But again, to what purpose?

Note: I've asked this question (or a variation of it) before, twice, it was not answered.

By the way, this whole "remember so it won't happen again" is one of the platitudes I mentioned earlier. Platitude, as in completely useless statement. Makes one feel nice and comfy sitting behind it, but in reality, does it actually affect real world events? The news headlines I read suggest a big resounding NO.

reply to post by LoneWeasel


I was not talking about ATS, it's obvious to all concerned that discussion about The Holocaust is obviously ongoing here.
I honestly thought that was a given.

MSM and conventional education prohibits discussion on the matter.
Anyone voicing an opinion opposed to the conventional viewpoint is automatically portrayed as a Nazi sympathizer. (They maybe for all I know but the lack of discussion in MSM doesn't allow us to find out!)

As I stated before, I am no Holocaust denier, I've seen the evidence with my own eyes.
It is not nice, I assure you.
How many other people here can say the same?
I am just expressing my opinion that The Holocaust AND other atrocities should be taught in our schools AND that debate within MSM and other relvant arenas should be actively encouraged.
There are valid questions out there that need answering and other acts of genocide that need raisng in public awareness.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Freeborn]

Suppose it got dropped, suddenly.

So no one talks about the holocaust in WW2 anymore.

Suppose it gets replaced in the curriculums with the Japanese atrocities in China/Burma etc.

Do you think there would be asian-holocaust revision? Would we see people questioning the number of chinese affected by the atrocities?

Would that holocaust eventually become "overrated" ?

If so why, and if not, why not?

reply to post by lee anoma


I will admit that the Holocaust is being exploited by the "Holocaust Industry" and that Israel sometimes pushes its luck.

But we mustnt forget that the genocide of millions originally began with a thought...a seed...and that seed was "the jewish/bankers conspiracy theory" and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion". A compelling read, but unfortunately it was picked up by the Nazis and taken literally and at face value (they started believing that its "the jews" who are the cause of all ills). This seed-thought spread like a virus and turned into action. That action has gone down as one of the worst acts in history....something we dont want to repeat.

You say "we are not allowed to talk about this"....but I can present the exact opposite experience. Where its been unpopular and dangerous to talk pro-jewish (even still today). Dont make me list the thousands of places where I dont dare practice freedom of speech in a pro-jewish manner.

Originally posted by Beachcoma

For the life of me, I really couldn't figure out what the purpose of repeatedly reminding people of it is for, except to produce the emotive responses you talked about in your subsequent post. But again, to what purpose?

Note: I've asked this question (or a variation of it) before, twice, it was not answered.

By the way, this whole "remember so it won't happen again" is one of the platitudes I mentioned earlier. Platitude, as in completely useless statement. Makes one feel nice and comfy sitting behind it, but in reality, does it actually affect real world events? The news headlines I read suggest a big resounding NO.

Well - it looks from that more like you HAVE had an answer - but considered it a platitude. The platitude you refer to would be my answer as well. But I'm afraid I'm going to frustrate you still more, because I happen to agree with what you're saying. Holocaust Memorial hasn't worked, in the sense that it hasn't stopped genocides taking place since.

I don't have an answer to how to stop genocide. I don't see that reducing the amount we study the holocaust would help, though. I think awareness alone is not going to do much. But awareness that is pushed into action might. We did not stop the massacres in Darfur. We should study that too. And we should make sure it doesn't happen again. You can suggest that the Holocaust Museum is full of platitudes - but at least it seeks awareness - and action.

LW

reply to post by LoneWeasel


Thanks for your honest answer. I'll give you a star, though personally I think these things are useless (the star system).

Another question. You said that he Holocaust Museums are seeking awareness (and possibly action). Does that mean people (at least in the Western Hemisphere) are NOT aware of the event? Really? Didn't they learn about it in school?

Reply to Skyfloating

"the jewish/bankers conspiracy theory" and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

Well let’s suppose if the Holocaust didn’t take place. Do you think that the Jews would have owned Germany today and have a major influence/authority on Europe?

reply to post by kangjia57


I really have no idea what the world would look like today if it hadnt happened.

reply to post by neformore


Well if it was only focused on the Asian atrocities then there will be an equal problem. I don't think there will ever be such focus on one event without raising some questions as to why.

reply to post by LoneWeasel


and I mean, you can say that there's the most abundant source material, but that is only because most asian survivors NEVER GOT TO TELL THEIR STORY. Essentially they are forgotten.

There are also many existing family links. In fact, you can ask pretty much anyone of the older generation (in China, Philippines, Korea, Manchuria), like 60 and up, they'll tell you all about the horrors that they/their parents endured. But nobody's cared to ask.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by italkyoulisten]

www.iht.com...

Memorial to the gypsies and homosexuals who were mass murdered being constructed in Germany. (top on drudge report today)

We must remember all who were lost in that terrible period yes, but to call any genocide where millions were slaughtered "overrated" is inhuman.

~S

[edit on 29-1-2008 by salez20]

Symptoms of groupthink

In order to make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms that are indicative of groupthink (1977).

1. Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
2. Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
3. Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
4. Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.
5. Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".
6. Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
7. Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
8. Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

en.wikipedia.org...

Kind of sounds familiar.

Originally posted by neformore
Suppose it got dropped, suddenly.

So no one talks about the holocaust in WW2 anymore.

Suppose it gets replaced in the curriculums with the Japanese atrocities in China/Burma etc.

Do you think there would be asian-holocaust revision? Would we see people questioning the number of chinese affected by the atrocities?

Would that holocaust eventually become "overrated" ?

If so why, and if not, why not?

Unfortuneately, Japanese already considers the matter "overrated". So overrated in fact the accounts of the atrocities are almost completely left out of the school text books. From time to time, surviving perpetrators(out of guilt), do speak out and try to change this revisionist view, but the discussion of the matter seems almost taboo and is strongly discouraged by the Japanese society at large.

This of course, is the flip side of the subject matter of this thread. What should be noted is that despite this inexcusable revisionist stance of the Japanese, rest of asia do not engage in a educational/cultural/political saturation campaign to change this view, e.g., asian holocaust museums do not exist in every major city of China or Korea(if at all), unlike in the US of jewish holocaust museums. The only visible effort is the weeky demonstration by the surviving "comfort women(not many are left alive, and shrinking)" in front of the Japanese embassy in Seoul, a la demonstrating mothers of the "disappearados" in Chile.

Perhaps it has to do with the cultural sentiment of feeling"ashamed", but by and large, the rest of asia(most notably China and Korea) has moved on from this traumatic experience, and simply left it to the politicos to work out some means of official recognition at the government level, and given up the effort to revise this deep seated revisionary stance of the Japanese.

Perhaps they know that obvious truth repeated too often begins to elicit opinions to the contrary, and does not do anyone any good.


[edit on 29-1-2008 by NeedToNo]

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
Kind of sounds familiar.

Well yes it does - and rightly so, because thats a nicely packaged and neat way of describing the tactics employed by the Nazi's to whip up feelings against the minorities in National Socialist Germany.

Of course, Goebbels would have made it sound sweeter.

My point being that you are complaining - I think - about "groupthink" being applied to you here, but its "groupthink" that got the whole ball rolling from the late 20's in Germany, and certainly after 1933.

Maybe a small taste of what you consider to be "overrated" ?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by lee anoma

 

I will admit that the Holocaust is being exploited by the "Holocaust Industry" and that Israel sometimes pushes its luck.

But we mustnt forget that the genocide of millions originally began with a thought...a seed...and that seed was "the jewish/bankers conspiracy theory" and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post here, but why the fixation on the "seed" of genocide married to the jewish holocaust ? It seems to me that genocides of all shapes and forms have long existed in human history and continues today(Darfur anyone ?).

What does the "protocols of the Elders of Zion" have to do with this seed(yes you are now being conspiratorial here), when my student sense of history tells me that the persecution of the jewish people had a long entrenched history in Europe for hundreds of years. It seems that the existing majority bias of the white Europens against the powerless minority ethnic group had more to do with it.

I don't recall the existence of the "protocols of Elder Navahos" as being the seed reason the genocide against the native people in America occured.

Majority bias if unchecked and unexamined tends to push humanity into this sort of shameful behavior, in my opinion. Noam Chomsky(himself jewish) wisely exposes such tendencies in his opus, "Manufacturing consent", warning against concentration of like minded control, that is mass media in the US/Europe, by the way, jewish dominated as has been posted earlier.

I will mention another obvious example of this Euro-centric majority bias:

Christopher Columbus "discovered" America, as I had long learned in school and accepted.

Open discussion of alternative views(that jewish holocaust is overrated, in this case) against the existing paradigm seems prudent and rational given our sad human history, otherwise we would still believe that sun revolves around the earth.