The Holocaust is Overrated

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
The conspiracy part of this is, why can't we question the Holocaust? And why can't we criticize anything about Israel?

The thing is...you CAN. Its being done everyday on the internet and also right here, right this moment. You can find anti-jewish-conspiracy-theories in every second normal household, asking the same questions you are asking.

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
The conspiracy part of this is, why can't we question the Holocaust? And why can't we criticize anything about Israel?

Whoa, hold on for a second. I thought the purpose of this thread was to bring Asian atrocities to light. Are we seeing the true purpose behind this thread now? The title sure proves that.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Whilst I am in no way an apologist for the holocaust I support peoples rights to discuss the accepted version of events.
Openness should be encouraged always.
These people are currently imprisoned for denying The Holocaust or the extent of it;

news.bbc.co.uk...


www.dw-world.de...

I personally believe that The Holocaust and all other atrocities acted out in the name of racial or religious superiority should be taught to all.

However, there does seem to be a particular focus on highlighting on the crimes committed against Jews in camps throughout Europe whilst ignoring other victims who were killed in every sphere of war during WW2 and other wars etc.

Is it surprising when examining the disproportionate number of Jews within the MSM and academic circles?

[Edit: my ever worsening grammar and spelling]


[edit on 28-1-2008 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
The conspiracy part of this is, why can't we question the Holocaust? And why can't we criticize anything about Israel?

Theres questions and theres denial. See, you can ask "did 6 million people die in the holocaust?" and no ones going to bat an eyelid except for possibly to point you at some history books.

But...if you go to those history books, and check the records, and see the evidence, and then come back and say "that didn't happen" then theres likely a problem will be percieved.

As for criticising Israel - who says you can't? I do. During the incursion into Lebanon I was an extremely strong vocal critic of the actions they undertook. If the IAF or Israeli government does something stupid then I'm all for calling them on it. The line, again, is criticising solely because they are jewish.

I thought in a free world, we could ask and probe into whatever we want? The mere condemnation of criticism of a subject suggests untruth, as critique and scrutiny is the only test of truth.

Well that depends. You see, I've never, ever once in the 20+ years I have been politically aware, seen someone - or a group of people - come out and argue that Jehovah's Witnesses, Disabled people, homosexuals, Romanies and "sub-human" prisoners of war were not systematically persecuted, abused/experimented on and then systematically murdered by the Nazi's in gas chambers. I don't see any any deniers relating to them. I don't see any questions relating to them. I don't see anyone screaming for "truth" and saying their deaths were overstated.

Yet I see consistently people arguing that the Jewish people weren't. I see them write that the jews had it coming to them for various reasons. I've seen people try and justify the actions taken by the Nazi's against the jews and offer "alternative" explanations for the camps and what happened to them.

I wonder, why is that?

Maybe when you realise the undertones behind what I've asked you might find the answer to your question. You see, theres truth, and then there are very clevery worded "demands" for it, which are no such thing, and instead have an agenda all of their own.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Yea, but it will never be seriously considered. That's the beauty of the system. You're still free to talk about whatever you want, but if you talk about something that's not allowed, you just lose all credibility and get a label. If you question the US government, you're a "conspiracy nut", and if you question Israel then you're an "anti-semite". See what I'm saying? When you're a "conspiracy nut" or an "anti-semite", you have zero credibility. Go on the internet and write an article about "ARABS TAKING OVER THE WORLD!", and you won't get much crap, but replace "ARABS" with "JEWS", you will get so much crap from people calling you this or that. I mean, basically you can replace "ARABS" with any other ethnicity and you won't get as much crap as if you used "JEWS".

reply to post by neformore


I'm not questioning any of the facts about the Holocaust. When I say we can't question it, I don't mean it is necessarily written into law. It's deeper than that. It's written into our social code. You can ask it, but it's just not socially acceptable, and all your credibility is shot. I mean, of course, there are some countries where it is literally illegal. The reason I talk about the Jews isn't because I don't like them or something. It just that they are the ones who the Holocaust is associated with, and that seems odd. Sure the Jews suffered the highest number of deaths (of a single ethic? (religious) group), but in the big picture, they made up of about half of all that were killed in the system. I mean, if you were to talk about the Holocaust to someone, it is much more likely that they'll say "oh, yea the systematic killing of Jews right?" than "oh, yea, the systematic killing of a plethora of minority groups right?"

Originally posted by neformore
Its nice to know what you think, really it is

A snarky moderator... how... laudable.

Well, if he'd said "hey there's this conspiracy about jewish people trying to take over the world", I would agree that he was taking about a conspiracy, and you'd have your thread basis there and then. Sadly he didn't, did he? He did mention his views, but as I said, his views aren't a conspiracy. The reaction to his views might be.

Sure, just like there might be a conspiracy in your own BAN threads, US to sign Israeli arms Package, Benazir Bhutto 'killed in blast', Dilemmas revealed in US-UK relationship, yet you never mention conspiracy or put a conspiracy spin on it and all from mainstream news sources.

Yes but the fine posters of ATS look at some of that stuff and put two and two together and develop their own intelligent theories about the news, applying the alternative angle onto the thread.

But the fine Moderators can't? It seems that Ghandi saying that Jews 'overplay' the Holocaust is as much of a conspiracy as this thread is, don't you think? Or are you telling me you can't see the implications there? Linking to this thread also gave the thread the appropriate context, but I suppose some things just go right over peoples' heads.

In the end, I'm glad we both got to make this interchange in an totally off-topic subject. The only difference is that you are a moderator.... who goes off-topic.

Tsk... tsk...

But on to the topic... one small thing that reveals that the Holocaust is overplayed by the Zionists is that they begin teaching it to Kindergarten students, and that is is concentrated upon yearly; In grade 11 alone, 30 compulsary hours must be spent on it.

I'd say that's pretty overplayed, how about the below attitude?

"THE Holocaust is part of our identity and consciousness since the day we are born," says Shulamit Imber, pedagogical director of the ISHS."

"Holocaust education should not take place just on Holocaust Day," says Imber. Holocaust Remembrance Day ought to in a sense be a culmination of what one has learned about the subject. The learning must take place all year round, she says.

And it does. Zealous, much? Looks like we have a little Holocaust fervor happening there. It sounds more like indoctrination than education.

And this is the rest of what Arun Gandhi said about Jews overplaying the Holocaust, which seems to get left out of the MSM articles (Gee, I wonder why?)

“Jewish identity in the past has been locked into the holocaust experience — a German burden that the Jews have not been able to shed. It is a very good example of a community can overplay a historic experience to the point that it begins to repulse friends. The holocaust was the result of the warped mind of an individual who was able to influence his followers into doing something dreadful. But, it seems to me the Jews today not only want the Germans to feel guilty but the whole world must regret what happened to the Jews. The world did feel sorry for the episode but when an individual or a nation refuses to forgive and move on the regret turns into anger.”

"Would it not be better to befriend those who hate you? Can you not reach out and share your technological advancement with your neighbors and build a relationship? Apparently, in the modern world, so determined to live by the bomb, this is an alien concept. You don’t befriend anyone, you dominate them. We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews [Zionists] are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.”
www.insidehighered.com...

Apparently not. When your neighbors come to your level of technology, you plan a preemptive nuclear strike. Israel may have the 3rd largest nuclear stockpile on earth, behind Russia and the US - and they are wavering to use it.

No one can question that the ME is teetering on the actions of Israel and the backing of its nuclear weapons program while they maintain the option of a nuclear strike on Iran, with Bush seemingly trying to act as instigate Israel into it, "I want to remind you that the current president of Iran has announced that the destruction of Israel is an important part of their agenda."

But, ya know, Ol' Arun Gandhi is just a stinkin' anti-semite.

As I read some of the posts critical of this thread, especially ones critical of the original poster, I cannot help but feel some of us(including some moderators) are missing the point of the discussion here.

Original poster has made it clear enough, as I read it, to provide the context with which the notion of "overrated" is expressed, as this is a comparative term, and has little meaning on its own.

Following observations are made:

The "overrated" word is not singularly directed to the jewish holocaust experience, but in relation to other ethno-nationalistic atrocities. In this regard, apart from the numbers game of counting however millions are victims, some of us feel that:

1. Systematic extermination of millions of jews is no worse than being subjected to wanton animalistic brutality of the Japanese imperial army(especially the infamous unit 731) across a large swath of asia. Is "Rape of Nanjing", or the systematic rape of the Korean "Comfort Woman"(many of whom have commited suicides rather than live in shame), or most recently rape camps of Bosnia/Darfur any less disgusting ?

2. We cannot talk about the "overrating" of jewish holocaust without also talking about the behavior of the jewish state. If, let's say, Israel systematically exterminated 6 million Palestinians, ignoring its own history, why would anyone in this forum(or the rest of the world) give a hoot about the jewish holocaust experience, never mind considering it overrated ? If they don't care why should the rest of us ? Israel's current despicable behavior most definitely contributes to the notion of "overrated holocaust".

3. How many of us ever seen a movie(perhaps the most emblematic of our histo-cultural depiction) dealing with other ethnic group's atrocities besides the jewish holocaust ? The point of tiresome saturation comes thru here.

Before some of those "quick draws" fire the anti-semite bullet from the hip, I invite them to carefully and intelligently observe the totality and comparative aspects of the issue regarding the jewish, along with other holocausts, and not get hung up with a single word .

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
But on to the topic... one small thing that reveals that the Holocaust is overplayed by the Zionists is that they begin teaching it to Kindergarten students, and that is is concentrated upon yearly; In grade 11 alone, 30 compulsary hours must be spent on it.

"THE Holocaust is part of our identity and consciousness since the day we are born," says Shulamit Imber, pedagogical director of the ISHS."

"Holocaust education should not take place just on Holocaust Day," says Imber. Holocaust Remembrance Day ought to in a sense be a culmination of what one has learned about the subject. The learning must take place all year round, she says.

I agree this would seem over-zealous (wow - I agreed with you on something!). However, the full article (linked here) shows that this curriculum relates to Israeli schools, not the whole world's schools. I must say I think it's far more reasonable to expect a heavy emphasis on holocaust history in Israeli schools than in US schools or French schools, or German schools for that matter. My history classes focussed heavily on the Battle of Hastings, for example - I wouldn't expect Israeli school children to study that event, though. But I would expect an emphasis on an event that happened within the life time of current Israeli school children's immediate families, in the country whose people were most affected by it. You clearly disagree, but I don't think there's a conspiracy here, and I struggle to see even where the controversy is.

And this is the rest of what Arun Gandhi said about Jews overplaying the Holocaust, which seems to get left out of the MSM articles (Gee, I wonder why?)

Thanks for the full citation, which, despite your theorised suppression elsewhere, has now had plenty of exposure at least on this thread. But you still haven't engaged with this citation as I asked a few posts before - what is it that you have in your campaign arsenal that supports Gandhi's claims?

He states that Israel wants the whole world to feel guilty - what in Israel's foreign policy suggests that it wants anything of the sort? I accept that people in Israel still grieve the holocaust, but (and I expect you'll call me "silly" now, again) I would argue that its actions, right or wrong, are founded on much more pragmatic, less emotive grounds than guilt tripping the planet. I would say Israel seeks to be a massively dominant political and military power in the region because it feels threatened on all sides by its Arab neighbours, here, now and today, not because it's somehow wreaking revenge on the whole world for the wrongs done to it in the Holocaust. I don't even agree that it uses holocaust memory to excuse its more barbaric actions - I don't in fact think Israel bothers to make an excuse at all. It's the arrogance of their foreign policy that I disagree with, not the motivation or the excuses for it.

And you haven't answered my point in response to Gandhi's assertion that Israel was the "biggest player" in the culture of violence. I repeat - 2000 deaths since 2005 in Israel and Palestine. Somewhere between 200,000 and 400,000 in Sudan since 2003. I accept that Israel is a more potent force because of its nuclear weaponry - but the fact is it hasn't used them. Even if that nuclear inaction were based on the impractability of launching a nuclear strike on a near neighbour, rather than a lack of desire on the part of Israel - the fact stands that Gandhi's comment is statistically wrong.

So far you've demonstrated nothing beyond the fact that an internationally respected peacemaker's grandson is on your side of the argument. My question would simply be: so what?

Thanks at least for getting back on topic. Briefly.

LW

EDIT: P.S I note that you add the word "Zionist" yourself to Gandhi's words. He didn't use that word. He said Jewish. To clarify - are Jewish and Zionist one and the same to you?

[edit on 29-1-2008 by LoneWeasel]

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
A snarky moderator... how... laudable.

Snarky? Not really. I'm genuinely interested in how and what you think.

Sure, just like there might be a conspiracy in your own BAN threads, US to sign Israeli arms Package, Benazir Bhutto 'killed in blast', Dilemmas revealed in US-UK relationship, yet you never mention conspiracy or put a conspiracy spin on it and all from mainstream news sources.

Might have been, yes. I don't think anyone ever really knows for sure how the things they flag up are going to be taken by the contributors to the board. Obviously the moderators at the time saw something in them in the context of the forum, or they would have been moved about. I do believe one of them was closed anyway.

But the fine Moderators can't? It seems that Ghandi saying that Jews 'overplay' the Holocaust is as much of a conspiracy as this thread is, don't you think? Or are you telling me you can't see the implications there? Linking to this thread also gave the thread the appropriate context, but I suppose some things just go right over peoples' heads.

Its not the responsibility of the moderators to explain individual users threads. Thats down to the user at the time. If they don't frame the context they want it to be seen in then its down to interpretation. Moderators aren't mind readers. You linked to a news story about a guys opinion and never mentioned what context you wanted it to be taken in. There was no conspiracy angle, so it was moved.

In the end, I'm glad we both got to make this interchange in an totally off-topic subject. The only difference is that you are a moderator.... who goes off-topic.

Tsk... tsk...

I'm responding to your post here benign Previous post and its kind of difficult to do that without writing it down in the context of the topic at hand and how it relates to the points you've raised about it. I could try telepathy but I doubt that would work.

I just find this thread morally reprehensible. Comparing atrocities and body count, the way that people were killed or slaughtered seems like point-scoring to me.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
I just find this thread morally reprehensible. Comparing atrocities and body count, the way that people were killed or slaughtered seems like point-scoring to me.

For my part MacDonagh, I apologise if my part in this debate has at any point offended anybody. I have consistently campaigned in my posts for the topic to be treated with sensitivity. I agree that comparing atrocities in this way is itself sickening. I do feel that it's necessary, unfortunately, to engage with the debate on the level at which certain challenges are being made.

Freedom of speech means anyone's entirely within their rights to post threads on subjects like this. As Crakeur has pointed out - the downside of freedom of speech is that occasionally one has to listen... but I also think it's important to confront the morally reprehensible rather than let it go unchallenged.

There's no point scoring from my perspective - and I have wrestled with the value of perpetuating what seems to me to be to some extent an attention seeking argument on the part of at least some contributors - but the support I've had for my own point of view as expressed in this and related threads persuades me its worth fighting on.

I would ask - again - that people treat this subject matter with care and sensitivity.

Thanks

LW

reply to post by MacDonagh


That's because nobody actually bothered to address what was brought up in the OP, crude as it was, which I have somewhat 'sanitised' and reiterated several pages back. Only Xtrozero attempted to answer it. Oh, lee anoma made some good points as well. Everyone else is using the thread as a soapbox to spread this ideology, or that anti-ideology, this rhetoric or that platitude or whatever. It's annoying. No actual content (at least not much when you peel away the layers of junk rhetoric and platitudes).

Oh, one more thing -- neformore, benign.psychosis -- why don't you two start a thread of your own or get into the debate forum? You're both not actually discussing the topic, more like taking snipes at each other. And you're doing it in other threads as well :shk:

/rant off.

Grrr...

Originally posted by Beachcoma
reply to post by MacDonagh

 

That's because nobody actually bothered to address what was brought up in the OP, crude as it was, which I have somewhat 'sanitised' and reiterated several pages back.

Sorry, coma, but I just don't agree. The specifics of the question - whether or not the holocaust is given a prominence beyond other atrocities that is deserved or otherwise - have been consistently adhered to throughout the pages. But the OP offered a speculation as to what the motives were behind that prominence, and that is also relevant to the debate. We've moved from the practicalities of and inspiration begind teaching holocaust and genocide history to debating that speculated motive. What's to Grr about?

LW

I think the great thing about this thread is that I'm proven right whenever some random person gets morally outraged and calls me an anti-semite. Seriously, the Holocaust is a drop in the ocean that is history. It really brings it down to the question of how much free will do we actually have?

The addict doesn't know he's addicted until it becomes a problem. And even then, he will still believe that he is in control of his own judgment and decision making.

We're all being conditioned to have responses toward certain subjects without really thinking about it. The Holocaust is one of them. Another subject would be conspiracy theories in general, which is commonly viewed as paranoid loonies. Since questioning anything about the Holocaust implies conspiracy, it becomes like it is on a pedestal or something, like it is holy, as you would be a conspiracy loony AND an anti-semite! But the question becomes, how much of what we choose and say is based upon true objective reasoning and how much is based upon bias? and is bias created? where do most people learn their biases? Where is the main source of bias?

You can say that we are taught so much about the Holocaust so we can never forget it, but is that to mean it's ok to forget other equally horrific atrocities that are left out?

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Oh, one more thing -- neformore, benign.psychosis -- why don't you two start a thread of your own or get into the debate forum?

I consider myself suitably chastised!

May I remind you that Moderators are people too (And they have opinions)

Now do I really need to link every post in this thread where I've addressed the topic, because there have been several.

Up until Sunday I was not an ATS moderator. On Sunday I was lucky enough to be asked to be one.

That does not automatically mean that I am about to change my mind on subjects and completely drop issues.

this racial thing on planet earth is one of the main reasons we
will NEVER be accepted as even members to the universal community.

so much fear, so much hate, so much idiocy...whats the point??

fear, hate, greed and envy has simply killed billions of our earthly humans.

and why. a skin color, a religion, a geographical area??

what the hell?????

I remember being told once that the reason the holocaust is discussed and mentioned as often as it is (might have heard this in hebrew school, might have been regular school) is to ensure that we never forget. Forgetting something like this allows it to happen again.

That's fair enough. I concur to that statement. Question raised here is not did it happened but to what extent and why certain people are making sure everyone is constantly reminded of Jewish suffering but neglecting to even mention 60 MILLION Russians, millions of Poles, Yugoslav's, Geek's, Gypsies etc.
Something is wrong here you have to admit. There was 600 movies since WWII relating to Jews tragedy. So in retrospect there should be 100.000 movies made about Russian suffering alone, and what about the others.
Name some of movies debating about our suffering if you can and they have to be Hollywood made!
I know, difficult i'nit?!
Number of killed Jews outside Auschwitz was reduced from 4 million to just over a million 40 years latter. Why is that? Also why total of killed Jewish people remains 6 Million if thet number was reduced by 75%?
Man, they are dictating everything in our life. Zionist I mean. They are using such horrible events to justify money grabbing and making us ordinary good people feel sorry for and pay for something we didn't commit.
What about reparations to other Countries. Germany is still paying billions, as well as America?!? What did Americans did to Jews really?
Why Romania, Greece or Yugoslavia didn't get anything even dough they were decimated in concentration camps worse than in Poland?
Answer id because they are few but powerful and everywhere in the white house taking all important and influential places and writing foreign and domestic policies. That's why.
Peace to us all and death to death bringers!

Originally posted by LoneWeasel
We've moved from the practicalities of and inspiration begind teaching holocaust and genocide history to debating that speculated motive. What's to Grr about?

Yep. On page 13, I think. Now we're back to rhetoric and oft-repeated mantras.

reply to post by neformore


What does the fact that you're a moderator now have to do with my post? Anyway, I was calling you out because I normally enjoy your posts, which are often thought provoking, but in this thread it's not so thought provoking but more like a broken record. (sorry, it's true, you and that psychosis fella have been going on and on about what is essentially the same thing for so many pages... imagine budski's avatar... doesn't help that both of you post verbose responses -- see below.)


* * *

Whatever peeps. I was in a bad mood at the time of that posting. Doesn't help that my internet connection was slow as hell, and loading page after page there was very little actual information to be found. Took like close to a minute to load a single page earlier today...

Meh. Members are people, too. We get cranky sometimes.

reply to nefermore

Up until Sunday I was not an ATS moderator. On Sunday I was lucky enough to be asked to be one.

That does not automatically mean that I am about to change my mind on subjects and completely drop issues.

And nor should you.
It is by being you that you were asked to become a Mod.
The danger of "promoting" members to become Mods is that they sometimes subsequently cease to post as much as they did thus weakening debates they would normally have taken part in.

Anyway, apologies for going off thread, again.

On thread,
As has been clearly displayed during this thread, the "sanctity" of The Holocaust is complete and little or no discussion is allowed on the subject.
Yes, The Holocaust occurred, (I have actually been to Auschwitz, a very eerie, traumatic experience I assure you and one that I recommend to all visitors to Poland).
Yes, The Holocaust was inexcusable.
No, it is not the only, or worst, (?? how to define the worst??)act of genocide by any stretch of imagination.

But why the reluctance to discuss it and related topics?

Is it because The Allies knew more about the concentration camps and chose, rightly or wrongly, to do nothing about it until the end of the war?
Is it to vindicate and justify the Israeli nation?
Is it perpetuated by Jewish vested interests in MSM?

These and many other questions need answering but the current climate discourages debate of any kind.

As stated before, all acts of religous, racial, ethnic or political acts of genocide should be taught in an effort to minimise the chances of re-occurences.

As we are forced to judge the acts of yesterday by the standards and morals of today I think it is easy and convenient for us to focus our collective guilt on Hitler and The Nazi's whilst not examining the actions of some of our own forefathers.
It serves many purposes for many people, but being economical with the facts and cherry picking events will never provide the WHOLE truth.


[Edit: Bad grammar as always]

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Freeborn]