US giving away stealth tech w/ JSF????

OK, this is part question part discusion:

If the US is allowing basically any country to get in on the joint strike fighter, are we giving away our stealth and avionics which sets our aircraft apart from other countries?

Or are these planes to be "scaled down" without the stealth?

If not, isn't the US worried that the stealth abilities could be compromised? Personally, I'd like to see us give scaled down versions out, and save the good stuff for us (and maybe the Britts - they are the only friggin country that ever gives us any support).

do you have any links or articles to back up your claim?

I was asking if they were going to be scaled down or not - I have not found info on this.

As for the JSF being given out - this is well known - countries that are currently on board (but not limited to) are: US, England & UK, Italy, Isreal (which has sold US tech to Russia before), and I believe Canada. There are probably more countries I forgot about or don't know about, but that is why it is called the JOINT strike fighter - because it's developement was funded by many countries so everyone would pay less (even though the US payed for most of it like always)

Any way - is there anyone out there who can help me out or has anythoughts?

*sigh* even iran has a stealth fighter now (the shafagh),, and anyway USA type stealth will be rendered useless by newer radars, stealth is only effective against 3rd world nations

ok gaza, i know you are a russia lover from your posts, but come on now - instead of blasting US tech would you give me something that says if other nations are getting the same model of the JSF as the US or not.

If you'd care to give an opinion if it would or would not matter if hostile nations got their hands on this aircraft that would also be welcome.

and *sigh* I wish that the russian millitary could fly half of it's aircraft instead of cannabalizing them for parts

actually, the JSF is flawed as it only supports a few munitions types and carrys a very small payload.

with nano tech weapon systems become smaller.
energy weapons come in near future as we all know.

but only countries of the allied nations like australlia canada, uk ect will get it and if they are giving it away its because they allready got something better.

You have to realize that the US has already given up F-16, F/A-18, F-15 and many other craft. Another would not matter. ALso it would be much more costly if we did not have other countries buy the F-35,

From a British perspective obviously I am not too concerned about my country taking on some more modern technology from a partner! .

But I would say that stealth technology is the current 'known' and is probably superseded by something much better lurking around in the US that we have not seen yet.

There are always "export versions"

and any differences are probably really well classified.

U.K., Canada and AU will probably get the full-on versions.

But still you have to consider that sooner or later any large fleet combat aircraft will eventually go down over enemy territory (if only because of mechanical failure if not enemy fire) and somebody will retrieve it.

It would be most interesting if some of the stealth modes were in software, i.e. using active electromagnetic tech as a ECM countermeasure. In that case, it would be very easy to degrade it for export version, and to make sure that when the aircraft is going down (or you hit the ejection seat) the ROMs will fry themselves.

It would also be easy to add a "prefix code" (ST:TWOK) in case one of our allies we sell it to turns out to be somewhat less reliable than originally thought (cough cough)

*sigh* even iran has a stealth fighter now (the shafagh),, and anyway USA type stealth will be rendered useless by newer radars, stealth is only effective against 3rd world nations

There are many different layers of stealth mind you....

Yes, I'd bet good money on it being a scaled down version. It would include stealth composites (already out there, as a result of the crash in Bosnia), and paint, etc. but it'll be missing the latest composites, as well as the electronic stealth components and other advanced improvements... It'll basically be as stealthy as the first generation of the F117, but not the latest and greatest....

Originally posted by theferret
From a British perspective obviously I am not too concerned about my country taking on some more modern technology from a partner!

.

But I would say that stealth technology is the current 'known' and is probably superseded by something much better lurking around in the US that we have not seen yet.

I'll have to agree with you on that. There is a doctrine we adopted from the British during WWII: If we can't defend against it ourselves, it stays on the shelf.

Even if our enemies (Chinese, French, Russian, German, etc..) were able to get their grubby hands on one, there still isn't much they could do with it anyways except attempt to expose a vulnerability in the system they could exploit. Aircraft like the F-15, Stealth Fighter, and the JSF contains many high-tech doodads and gizmos (forgive my lack of technical lingo) that would be very difficult to near impossible to reproduce in said nations (thats not including the necessary software and programming). And even if they were able to, they still wouldn't be able to afford to produce and maintain enough of them to be construed as any serious threat.

And by the time they are able to, we (as well as our genuine allies) will be using something that will make the JSF look like 3rd World tech.

I agree - the f-22 and B-2 are the is the best stealth that we know of. But here is the thing, all stealth works by reducing the radar cross section and making the plane look much smaller on radar. This is done through a lot of methods, and a good stealth plane is a good compromise of all. So if our enemy's (say the chinees, since Russia no doubt could already replicate this tech if they had the funds) get their hands on the F-35 through the Isreali's (I am not too worried about the UK) they could leapfrog tech advancemeants, and so exponentially close aircraft tech with us.

BTW - I posted this subject as TheButcher, but forgot my password and since i did not use my Email adress It may be sometime before i get my name back

Actually the F-35 is no different whether it's going to Turkey, the UK, Australia, etc. The avionics may end up being different, but the rest of the plane is no different.

As far as compromising stealth technology, the F-35 is mainstream, internationally marketable stealth.
You may notice that the F-22 is not for export - even to the US's closet allies... there is a reason for that...
The technology is a bit more advanced.

As for Sector Gaza's thoughts that stealth is no longer a valid technology as radars are getting more advanced... that is true only to a certain degree.

The radars are getting more sophisticated but the distance that they can "see" these stealth flyers is not really improving - they just know what RF anomalies to look for now. If an F-22 were to fly over, you might "see" it on your screen for a few brief moments before it disapeared again... if there are electronic countermeasures in the area you can all but hang it up on nailing a Raptor... But a Raptor is not an F-35, however once again, although not as stealthy, the F-35 still only provides a very small window for a SAM site to get a shot off...

A couple of interesting quotes pertaining to the subject are as follows....

Dick Mather project manager at Lockheed-Martin has this to say regarding the stealth of the F-22...
"How large the F-22 Raptor appears on radar is classified and depends on the quality of the radar. However, it can be said that the F-22 doesn't appear on even the most sophisticated radar systems until it is almost too late to shoot. "You might get your sights up and maybe get a shot, or maybe not, because that...(Raptor) is "ZOOM!" right through your field of view..." then it disappears off the screen.

Paul Metz, the first test pilot to fly the F-22 described an exercise in which the pilot of a fully updated F-15 with the latest avionics on board was told that Metz was approaching head on in an F-22. The F-15's updated radar failed to find the Raptor.
"The first time he got a read on me was visually, when I flew right over the top of him..."
Paul Metz, USAF Ret., former Lockheed-Martin Chief Test Pilot

Originally posted by Very_Soon_Now
actually, the JSF is flawed as it only supports a few munitions types and carrys a very small payload.

Belated Welcome and Greetings to ATS Very_Soon_Now.

Regarding your comment, perhaps you may wish to review this thread:
"Lockheed-Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I would be interested in your analysis and then on whether or not if you still think as you do now?


regards
seekerof

Trival to say the least, the US has a sub-orbital strike aircraft that circumvents all of the current interceptors.

The inteceptor is no match to an aircraft that flys higher and faster.

As to this:
"If the US is allowing basically any country to get in on the joint strike fighter, are we giving away our stealth and avionics which sets our aircraft apart from other countries?"

I would greatly like to now how you figure that just "anyone" is going to get their greedy lil' paws on the JSF? There will be NO "basically any country to get in on the JSF".

Perhaps this will help you out?

"The F-35 JSF is designed to replace the U.S. Air Force A-10s and F-16s, U.S. Navy F/A-18s, U.S. Marine Corps AV-8B Harriers and F/A-18s domestically, and will go to the following foreign countries: the United Kingdom, Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Australia."

"whos getting the F/A-22 and JSF?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

These are all Allied and aligned with the US nations. I failing to see this as a threat to the sanctity of "stealth" and the giving away of stealth tech.




regards
seekerof

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Seekerof]

ok, I was mistaken in thinking that Isreal was getting the aircraft, which is where my main concern was, seeing how they have sold our stuff to hostile countries before.

Obviously the UK canada ect. are trustworthy, it just worried me that a country as dubious as Isreal, which uses the US would it

Anyways thanks for the info seekerof & intelgurl

Trival to say the least, the US has a sub-orbital strike aircraft that circumvents all of the current interceptors.

What aircraft is this? Or is this speculative

"RAM decreases the enemy�s ability to detect the F22 by the most commonly used means today, Radar. However, the latest Russian aircraft are fitted with advanced Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) sensors which track the heat signature of a normal aircraft and use this to lock and direct AAM missiles toward the target. Thus the F22 must also maintain stealth against this type of sensor.

-www.214th.com...

I remember reading a test report that stated that an F-15 flew over the top of an F-22, visablably identified the F-22 but did not have it on radar.......

Seems to me that the stealth technology used on the Raptor and the eventual JSF will suffice, for the time being.



regards
seekerof