Is There A Conspiracy Of Atheists To Overthrow Christianity?

This is the sort of stuff he uses to argue against evolution -

He wants an example of an evolutionary process evolving the word 'Brown' to 'Black'. Now, if it is done by the methods available to evolution it is p!ss easy. The problem is that he misrepresents evolution. He suggests that his random mutation generator is the mechanism available.

BS.

Evolution is random mutation and natural selection.

Thus, in 1,000,000 simultaneous trials, it would be easy to do this:

Brown

to

Blown (c.f. single point mutation and selection)

to

Block (c.f. double mutation)

to

Black (c.f. single point)

Easy. Three steps. All mutations observed in nature. We could use scaffolding and all kinds of processes.

The issue is that his 'challenge' is still BS. As evolution doesn't aim towards any target. Moreover, it is not single organisms that evolve, but whole populations. You might say, but that the above transition was not random. But that would be ignoring the fact we might have more than 1,000,000 trials occuring simultaneously, all being selected according to fitness (i.e. producing coherent english words). Indeed, there are multiple pathways to overcome this challenge.

Honestly, his challenges are irrelevant to real science. He misrepresents everything from information theory to biology.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by melatonin]

To clarify I would also add

Evangelical, Fundamentalist, and Pentecostal Christians associate "being born again" with a conversion experience that involves a personal, and sometimes intense, encounter of the individual with the power of God, as if the person has "attained" salvation. Some Christians in these groups would assert that those without such a conversion experience are not true Christians.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by sizzle
They had the frying pan warmed up for that guy before he even got there.

It's hard to take someone who uses such dishonest misrepresenting tactics seriously. Anyone with experience of his MO is going to know exactly how he works.

ABE: anyway, get back to playing the martyr to the phantom subversive totalitarian atheists.

cheers.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by sizzle
I don't recall making a statement that specified that.

okay then:

The Bible itself tells you that you cannot understand the things of God with the carnal mind. And until you are spiritually re-born; that is what you have is a carnal mind.

You keep 'diplomatically' inferring it without giving respect to the various forms of atheist spirituality that exist [which you've now denied doing ]..as though you think atheists are incapable of spiritual awareness. You even started a thread based on that [us and 'them'] premise.. and you even snuck in the words 'carnal mind' to describe us even though we are ALL aware that it's a biblical term of degredation which basically means an uncivilised mind thats prone to 'sinning' with carnal pleasures. It's very hard to believe you are the passive peacemaker when you not only threw the first stone and started a thread accusing us of being the aggressors [quite a judgement in itself] ..but have also insulted our moral charactors.. an observation I suspect you will now claim victim to which ironically will play right into your atheist=aggressor scenario anyway.

[I can see how this is going to play out.. :shk:]

reply to post by pavlovsdog


How can you NOT know that these are the basic tenants of True Christianity?

The thief on the cross beside Jesus was taken to paradise WITHOUT being baptised, taught catechisms or even sacraments!
This is not new.
The anabaptists were so-called, (evangelists) killed, and persecuted for teaching repentance and conversion, followed by full emersion!
preceded by the Waldensions, the Hussites and the Lollards.
Great men and Women of Faith!!!

Are you Russian Orthodox?

[edit on 16-1-2008 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by sizzle
They had the frying pan warmed up for that guy before he even got there.

It's hard to take someone who uses such dishonest misrepresenting tactics seriously. Anyone with experience of his MO is going to know exactly how he works.

ABE: anyway, get back to playing the martyr to the phantom subversive totalitarian atheists.

Since that is so obviously how they all felt (and it is obvious by their remarks, while they are waiting for him to arrive) then they should not have invited him to discuss his opinions. Because it was not a discussion at all. It was a witch hunt.

It may be possible to overthrow a religion (but I doubt it), but spirituality can not be eradicated.

Originally posted by sizzle
Because it was not a discussion at all. It was a witch hunt.

Not quite. He would have been ducked and burned at the stake if it was a true christian witch hunt.

We atheists are doing our best to come up with a similar devious method of disposing of heretics. Be patient. We've only got to books and seminars thus far.

reply to post by melatonin


Don't forget tax payers' dollars, you also have that.
As well as a wide array of government pandering!

Originally posted by Clearskies
Don't forget tax payers' dollars, you also have that.
As well as a wide array of government pandering!

Heh, yeah, atheists have the US government under their thumb, rofl.

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by pavlovsdog

 

How can you NOT know that these are the basic tenants of True Christianity?

TRUE Christanity? No further comment. I guess yours is the 'only way' the 'right way' and 'if you dont believe as I do you are going to burn in hell'

Now, I purport that the following is much closer to the basic tenants of Christanity. As it predates the Evangelical belief sub set by almost 1500 years

The Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by sizzle
I don't recall making a statement that specified that.

okay then:

The Bible itself tells you that you cannot understand the things of God with the carnal mind. And until you are spiritually re-born; that is what you have is a carnal mind.

You keep 'diplomatically' inferring it without giving respect to the various forms of atheist spirituality that exist [which you've now denied doing

]..as though you think atheists are incapable of spiritual awareness. You even started a thread based on that [us and 'them'] premise.. and you even snuck in the words 'carnal mind' to describe us even though we are ALL aware that it's a biblical term of degredation which basically means an uncivilised mind thats prone to 'sinning' with carnal pleasures. It's very hard to believe you are the passive peacemaker when you not only threw the first stone and started a thread accusing us of being the aggressors [quite a judgement in itself] ..but have also insulted our moral charactors.. an observation I suspect you will now claim victim to which ironically will play right into your atheist=aggressor scenario anyway.

[I can see how this is going to play out.. :shk:]

Ya know, I hate it when someone tells me what I am inferring, when they could not be more wrong. Apparently you choose to be offended. If that is the case, I cannot stop you. But I'll try once more to explain the carnal mind in the Biblical expression. At least the way it was intended to read before it was translated into some of the more modern english texts.
In the original texts, it referred to being in the flesh. I know, I know. I am still in the flesh. But I have had a Spiritual transformation of the Holy Spirit kind.
Nowhere did I ever say that atheists did not have the capacity to be spiritual. Nor did I say that you were carnally sinfull. That is for each person to judge for himself. I could say what the Bible says about all of us, but I am sure that you do not want to hear that. So I won't.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by sizzle
Because it was not a discussion at all. It was a witch hunt.

Not quite. He would have been ducked and burned at the stake if it was a true christian witch hunt.

We atheists are doing our best to come up with a similar devious method of disposing of heretics. Be patient. We've only got to books and seminars thus far.

So Conspiriology was right then. You guys do mean Christians actual physical harm and possibly even death. I know out and out hate when I experience it.

reply to post by pavlovsdog


Yes,
even though I am not too fond of Constantine and the subsequent council of Nicea, That creed doesn't say that a person has to be a member of a PHYSICAL catholic (which means Universal) church or apostolic organisation.

You know the church became very corrupt after that time, on through the dark ages.

reply to post by Clearskies


starred for not
a. telling me to capitalize catholic and
b. knowing the usage of the word

Originally posted by rileyI suspect you will now claim victim to which ironically will play right into your atheist=aggressor scenario anyway.

[I can see how this is going to play out.. :shk:]

I went to catholic school and have been exposed to alot of christianity otherwise. A few years ago I read the bible in one sitting, and, to be sure of the context I did that again [I felt sick afterwards]. I am very familar with biblical terminology and the way it's used and that is what the term 'carnal mind' means.. we both know it and you tried to use it to indirectly antagonise atheists. The only time I have ever heared priests use those words is when talking about sinners. You got called on it, dropped it like a hot patato.. and guess what? You claimed to be my victim. Passive agressiveness at it's worst.

Originally posted by sizzle
So Conspiriology was right then. You guys do mean Christians actual physical harm and possibly even death. I know out and out hate when I experience it.

I think as you mature from being 'born again', your sarcasm detector might well become more developed. Might happen at around 'puberty again'. Or not.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by sizzle

So Conspiriology was right then. You guys do mean Christians actual physical harm and possibly even death. I know out and out hate when I experience it.

I think you need to be 'born again' with a sense of levity. Thats another trait I see exemplified in modern evangelists and fundies - thin skinned and unable to take a bit of goading or a jibe. This does not endear you to the masses.

reply to post by riley


At the risk of upsetting the Catholics; I do not agree with the Catholic Doctrine and never have. And I will say this; If I had been raised Catholic, I too might be an atheist today.

When did we bring Catholics into this? Are we expanding the discussion? I've not seen anything mentioned about Catholics except for the fact that riley went to Catholic school