Huckabee on Iran: 'you will see the gates of Hell'

Originally posted by MikeboydUS




I am delusional? You need to do some research.

China and Russia's Air Force and Navy combined are not even close to the size or power of the US Navy or Air Force.

The US Navy Alone has 11 Super Carriers. The US Air Force alone has more combat aircraft than both of them combined. Also consider US strategic bomber forces far outnumber both Russia and China.

The most important aspect of any sustained combat is Logistics, and in that regard Russia and China fail miserably. Both nations simply would be unable to supply their forces if deployed far from home. In addition both would struggle to project their forces anywhere far from home.

The only place where Russia and China could put up a real fight would be within or real close to their homelands. Beyond that and they would be annihilated in a conventional battle.

I am not being patriotic or advocating war with Iran. I am simply stating stating the obvious, that the United States has the most powerful conventional military on the face of the earth by far. For someone to not recognize that is deluded.

Oh dear, it's like talking to an Evanglical Christian and trying to explane why there is no god.

Originally posted by West Coast




Which is precisely why I chose to leave nuclear weapons out of it, and replaced it with the word "conventional".

Even then, China only has a measly 200 nukes, which could easily be taken out, Russia, while having a numerical advantage, is rotting from the inability to maintain its nuclear arsenal, even right as we speak. And we still do not know what the US has in regards to "black programs". Gary Mckinnons has some interesting claims. All in all I am not promoting a war with these nations, let alone a nuclear one! Just merely speculating on a conspiracy message board.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Go to Sinodefence defensetalk or similar site and type search term nuclear weaponry. Russia is WAY ahead in missile technology compared to USA. Their mirw warheads in their new topol m missiles cannnot be shot down. While S-400 systems have no problem droping down any missile in USA arsenal. This is a FACT, not fiction. Also they have other cruise missiles that render patriot and other systems, obsolite, fact as well. Go study....

Originally posted by musselwhite
How many soldiers do we have left to defend America if attacked on US soil?

The answer - not many. Most of the US soldiers will be replaced and all future wars will be fought through PMCs (private military contractors). The most powerful groups of the future will be companies that train and control PMCs, like Blackwater, not goverments.

The purpose of dwindling down our troops is to give way for hired soldiers. The goverment benefits greatly through them because they are cheaper than training, giving medical aid, and arming US soldiers. Not only that, but there will be almost no negative public reaction when a PMC soldier dies, because they are not US Military men. We no longer can say, "Support our troops," because they are no longer our troops. They will belong only to the the corporations they work for and highest bidder.

The future war with Iran will be fought, but not through US soldiers. By the time we get our new president, most of the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan will come back, and in return US will hire PMCs to replace them as well as go into Iran.


[edit on 13-1-2008 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

I am delusional? You need to do some research.

China and Russia's Air Force and Navy combined are not even close to the size or power of the US Navy or Air Force.

The US Navy Alone has 11 Super Carriers. The US Air Force alone has more combat aircraft than both of them combined. Also consider US strategic bomber forces far outnumber both Russia and China.

The most important aspect of any sustained combat is Logistics, and in that regard Russia and China fail miserably. Both nations simply would be unable to supply their forces if deployed far from home. In addition both would struggle to project their forces anywhere far from home.

The only place where Russia and China could put up a real fight would be within or real close to their homelands. Beyond that and they would be annihilated in a conventional battle.

I am not being patriotic or advocating war with Iran. I am simply stating stating the obvious, that the United States has the most powerful conventional military on the face of the earth by far. For someone to not recognize that is deluded.

I think, you are beyond delusional. You need to get your facts more straight. I'd do a bit more searching before you post more nonsense, you underestimate other countries of what they're capable of..

The solution is simple. Vote for Ron Paul. You might not agree with all his policies but atleast he isn't a warmonger or a religious nut. Surely that makes him the best of a lousy bunch. As for Huckabee, if you vote for that religious nut, he'll probably turm America into the pits of hell.

Mike, China has the largest airforce in the world:

The People's Liberation Army Air Force is the largest military air force in the world with over 6,000 military airplanes and over 300,000 active personnel. The new PLAAF is updating its inventory of MiG-21 and MiG-19 copies with planned purchases of the advanced Russian made Sukhoi SU-27 FLANKER series and the newly developed J-10 strike fighter.
quoted from: www.softwar.net...

And the USA can not win a conventional war with China, Iran or Russia. Let alone the 3 combined together. Why?
China: The minute the US declares war to China, the chinese goods stop flowing in the US; the Dollar collapses, therefore the USA can not afford a thing from overseas (the US NEEDS foreign funds to keep its army going).
Iran: Iran can instantly cut 70% of world's oil, sending it skyrocketing. An army needs oil, and a lot of it. The Iranians have a lot of developed weapons, including ballistics missiles that can reach any US base in the region. The US would be fighting on Iranian soil, look at the Iraq fiasco, do you really think the US can win an insurgency war in Iran?
Russia: The russians would not attack first, when the US has its hands tied with Iran or China it may support them with subs and resources. remember that all the fuel the US uses is extremely vulnerable.

So how you think it takes the entire world to have a chance to defeat the US is beyond me.

Originally posted by FaxMachine

You really don't know what you are talking about. Go to Sinodefence defensetalk or similar site and type search term nuclear weaponry. Russia is WAY ahead in missile technology compared to USA.

How so? US missiles are WAY more accurate making them far more deadly. Russia always valued the size of a blast radius rather than accuracy, this because of their inability to make a weapon accurate enough to hit said target. So they go big, assuring they will hit the target even if they arnt on target, that results in alot more collateral damage.

Their mirw warheads in their new topol m missiles cannnot be shot down.

They cant? Or is this just you formulated biased opinion? I think your forgetting about lasers and how they will play a major role in america ABM designs. Im quite sure a defense mechinsm that moves at the speed of light can knock out a slowlly moving target of MACH 3+.

While S-400 systems have no problem droping down any missile in USA arsenal.

Wheres the proof of what you say? Your spouting bull# now.

This is a FACT, not fiction. Also they have other cruise missiles that render patriot and other systems, obsolite, fact as well. Go study....

Its "obsolete" not "obsolite". And youve already been proven to have a biased agenda. You have absolutely no proof that validates any of your claims. Just your biased nationalistic chest thumping opinion, which is very very ignorant. As mikeyboyd said, the US military dominance is growing like a Californian wild fire, the US IS ahead in military terms compared russia RIGHT NOW, and by the 2020s the nuclear option russia has relied so heavily on will be obsolete. LAsers will also play a major role, along with kenetic kill switch weapons that will be circling the globe at all times in outer space. Why does russia oppose US weapons in space? Theres a reason, and its because they cannot keep up. Space is the final frontier, and the US is the clear front runner in exploring the space option. I also suggest looking up FCS (future combat systems). While america updates its armed forces, russia sits on idle, and has ever since 1989. The days of the mean russian bear are over. Perhaps it is YOU who needs to study?

[edit on 13-1-2008 by West Coast]

Why is it everytime we have a discussion about Iran. It always turns into something akin to a penis envy competition. My missile is bigger than your missile, or my ship can sink your ship. Geez grow up!!!!!! War is a mugs game, fought by mugs. There's also the fact that countless thousands of innocent people get killed just so some corrupt stooge can make a quick buck.

Originally posted by TheOracle
Mike, China has the largest airforce in the world:

The People's Liberation Army Air Force is the largest military air force in the world with over 6,000 military airplanes and over 300,000 active personnel. The new PLAAF is updating its inventory of MiG-21 and MiG-19 copies with planned purchases of the advanced Russian made Sukhoi SU-27 FLANKER series and the newly developed J-10 strike fighter.
quoted from: www.softwar.net...

They do, however, i believe alot of those aircraft are not safe for flight.

And the USA can not win a conventional war with China, Iran or Russia. Let alone the 3 combined together. Why?

CONVENTIONAL WAR. And yes, the US could effectively fight a conventional war against all three nations. Logistics plays a major role, the US has mastered it, the others mentioned above, have not.

China: The minute the US declares war to China, the chinese goods stop flowing in the US; the Dollar collapses, therefore the USA can not afford a thing from overseas (the US NEEDS foreign funds to keep its army going).

If the chinese economy does not grow atleast 7% a year, the chinese economy would go into a recession. Thus possibly collapsing the chinese economy.

China would be affectively cutting its own throat, and that would not collapse the USD. It would hurt it, but would not collapse it.

Iran: Iran can instantly cut 70% of world's oil, sending it skyrocketing. An army needs oil, and a lot of it. The Iranians have a lot of developed weapons, including ballistics missiles that can reach any US base in the region. The US would be fighting on Iranian soil, look at the Iraq fiasco, do you really think the US can win an insurgency war in Iran?

Remember, conventional war. And we dont need troops on the ground in order to kick Irans arse.

And cutting off 70%? How? By iran stopping the selling of its own oil, thus killing themselves, as that is there only major export? Or by doing that and blocking the straights of Hormuz, which will piss just about every kingdom in the middle east off. And do not forget the VASTLY superior USN that Iran would have to deal with to affectivly seal of the straights of Hormuz.

Russia: The russians would not attack first, when the US has its hands tied with Iran or China it may support them with subs and resources. remember that all the fuel the US uses is extremely vulnerable.

We are talking about head to head combat, convetional warfare in its very essence. Russia is not americas equal in these regards.

So how you think it takes the entire world to have a chance to defeat the US is beyond me.

The US has the worlds most prolific military force known to man. The US military spending alone is more than the rest of the worlds spending COMBINED. The US spends 70 billion dollars alone in military R&D YEARLY. Black budget spending is near or at an all time high, back to the cold war spending level. The US has the most powerful navy and airforce. The USN is larger then all the rest of the worlds navys COMBINED. I mean it goes on...dont underestimate the power of the US... I think if anything, the US is too powerful.

Well if the US military is the greatest, maybe someone could tell me which military victory the US has achieved since World War 2. The US can't win in Iraq/Afghanistan. War isn't about fancy weaponry and shiny aircraft carriers, they are just good to display on forum avatars.
War is about heart, values and beliefs which the US doesn't have (in the case of the middle east) and this is why the US cannot win. Soldiers on the ground know that they have been lied to a war, they know they are fighting because they have no choice, they know they are there to use Iraq's wealth and strategic position. China and Russia will never start a war against the US unless provoked. The only warmongers on this planet are the US administration. No matter how well armed you are, in the end you need the power of the local people to win.

And I repeat that in the case of a conventional war against either russia or china, the US can't win. Simply because the US has much more to lose than the Chinese (economically) and the US relies on shipments of oil to keep the army going, these shipments are easy to shut down anywhere on the globe.


And in regards to the US military spending much mroe than anybody else, I can only agree. Since everything in the US is two or three times more expensive than military hardware made in Russia or China. Also many of the costs do not appear in China's budget while the US has one big Defense budget so yes it does appear bigger.

[edit on 13-1-2008 by TheOracle]

Originally posted by FaxMachine

Originally posted by MikeboydUS




I am delusional? You need to do some research.

China and Russia's Air Force and Navy combined are not even close to the size or power of the US Navy or Air Force.

The US Navy Alone has 11 Super Carriers. The US Air Force alone has more combat aircraft than both of them combined. Also consider US strategic bomber forces far outnumber both Russia and China.

The most important aspect of any sustained combat is Logistics, and in that regard Russia and China fail miserably. Both nations simply would be unable to supply their forces if deployed far from home. In addition both would struggle to project their forces anywhere far from home.

The only place where Russia and China could put up a real fight would be within or real close to their homelands. Beyond that and they would be annihilated in a conventional battle.

I am not being patriotic or advocating war with Iran. I am simply stating stating the obvious, that the United States has the most powerful conventional military on the face of the earth by far. For someone to not recognize that is deluded.

Oh dear, it's like talking to an Evanglical Christian and trying to explane why there is no god.

How can you compare that to advocating atheism?

You can research and investigate the US military and all other militaries. Its not a matter of faith. The US military is a physical entity that can be seen, touched, and heard. There is no doubt that it exists. There is no doubt that it has the largest Navy, Air Force, and modern Armored forces upon the face of the earth. There is no doubt that the United States has the largest defense budget, is at the forefront in directed energy weapons, unmanned vehicles, and weapons that utilize space. These are facts that can be verified in news reports, encyclopedias, military journals, numerous books, magazines, and documentaries.

So the US military is nothing like an argument over the existence of a deity. It is backed by facts and reality that can be researched, investigated, and measured.

Originally posted by Armin

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

I am delusional? You need to do some research.

China and Russia's Air Force and Navy combined are not even close to the size or power of the US Navy or Air Force.

The US Navy Alone has 11 Super Carriers. The US Air Force alone has more combat aircraft than both of them combined. Also consider US strategic bomber forces far outnumber both Russia and China.

The most important aspect of any sustained combat is Logistics, and in that regard Russia and China fail miserably. Both nations simply would be unable to supply their forces if deployed far from home. In addition both would struggle to project their forces anywhere far from home.

The only place where Russia and China could put up a real fight would be within or real close to their homelands. Beyond that and they would be annihilated in a conventional battle.

I am not being patriotic or advocating war with Iran. I am simply stating stating the obvious, that the United States has the most powerful conventional military on the face of the earth by far. For someone to not recognize that is deluded.

I think, you are beyond delusional. You need to get your facts more straight. I'd do a bit more searching before you post more nonsense, you underestimate other countries of what they're capable of..

I'm not underestimating, I can draw reasonable conclusions based on facts and figures. Like how many personnel, combat aircraft, tanks, ships, budgets, training, fuels, and supplies that are available to various nations. Most nations simply cannot mass project forces around the world. The few that can project forces, though not on a massive scale, cannot sustain those forces. There is no nation on earth that can project forces like the US and sustain them.

Now if your interpreting that as the US being able to invade and occupy the entire planet, thats not what I said. I said no nation and possibly the entire world would be able to win a conventional global war with the US.
This is based on logistics, equipment, training, and industry. The US wouldn't need to occupy the planet. Simply cut off resources and industries to opposing forces, much of which can be done by bombing. Opposing forces would be reduced to a Third world country with their militaries comparable to insurgents in Iraq. The guerilla forces left would pose no real threat. Only if the US tried to occupy the countries would it be a real problem. At that point it would no longer be a conventional war anyway.

So again no nation on the face of the earth, could win a Conventional War with the US. Once a nation's economy, industry, infrastructure, and military is ruined they would be out of the fight, except in the event of occupation, where locals can project and sustain guerilla and terrorist forces.



[edit on 13/1/08 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by musselwhite

How many soldiers do we have left to defend America if attacked on US soil?

How many US citizens are there in the United States? Anyone attempting a full scale invasion of the United States would find themselves bathed in their own blood. Citizens themselves would never allow it to happen.

reply to post by DJMessiah


I agree we are funding this new wave of mercenaries for hire, using our tax payer money to build their bases and to arm them.

UK has joined to, Dubai and many other US friendly nation been allow to supply this mercenaries.

Originally posted by TheOracle
Well if the US military is the greatest, maybe someone could tell me which military victory the US has achieved since World War 2. The US can't win in Iraq/Afghanistan. War isn't about fancy weaponry and shiny aircraft carriers, they are just good to display on forum avatars.
War is about heart, values and beliefs which the US doesn't have (in the case of the middle east) and this is why the US cannot win.

If the US had the heart, values and beliefs of let’s say the Nazis is there any doubt that we would not obliterate whole nations? Our heart, values and beliefs keep getting in the way…damnit

Soldiers on the ground know that they have been lied to a war, they know they are fighting because they have no choice, they know they are there to use Iraq's wealth and strategic position.

It is obvious you’re not in the military for this is the total opposite of reality. Please don’t express personal opinions as fact.

And I repeat that in the case of a conventional war against either russia or china, the US can't win. Simply because the US has much more to lose than the Chinese (economically) and the US relies on shipments of oil to keep the army going, these shipments are easy to shut down anywhere on the globe.

Well except for there is more untapped oil in Alaska and boarding waters than much of the Middle East. It is still cheaper to buy and use Middle East oil, that’s all.

Since you say the US can't win and I agree to a point because of the cost it would take us to win and not because of our military capabilities. Do you feel that either Russia or China could win a war with the US? I think it is kind of a stalemate don't you think?

In the term of battles though we would win the majority and we would own the skies and seas after a very short time. But then this doesn’t mean victory in the sense of the overall war for total victory we would need to do things that our heart, values and beliefs will not let us do.


[edit on 13-1-2008 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by TheOracle
Mike, China has the largest airforce in the world:

The People's Liberation Army Air Force is the largest military air force in the world with over 6,000 military airplanes and over 300,000 active personnel. The new PLAAF is updating its inventory of MiG-21 and MiG-19 copies with planned purchases of the advanced Russian made Sukhoi SU-27 FLANKER series and the newly developed J-10 strike fighter.
quoted from: www.softwar.net...

And the USA can not win a conventional war with China, Iran or Russia. Let alone the 3 combined together. Why?
China: The minute the US declares war to China, the chinese goods stop flowing in the US; the Dollar collapses, therefore the USA can not afford a thing from overseas (the US NEEDS foreign funds to keep its army going).
Iran: Iran can instantly cut 70% of world's oil, sending it skyrocketing. An army needs oil, and a lot of it. The Iranians have a lot of developed weapons, including ballistics missiles that can reach any US base in the region. The US would be fighting on Iranian soil, look at the Iraq fiasco, do you really think the US can win an insurgency war in Iran?
Russia: The russians would not attack first, when the US has its hands tied with Iran or China it may support them with subs and resources. remember that all the fuel the US uses is extremely vulnerable.

So how you think it takes the entire world to have a chance to defeat the US is beyond me.

Chinese Air Force rebuttal:

Did you look through their inventory?

Over 2000 Mig-19s as of 2006. The Mig 19 was introduced on 1955, and designed before 1953. They also have around 1000 Mig 21s, another dinosaur of combat aircraft.

67 Su-27s as of 2006. I am also weary about those numbers, check out this place: www.sinodefence.com...

The United States on the other hand:

Just from the Air Force ( not including the Navy or Marines)
Around 340,000 active duty personnel. Around 200,000 reserves and guard which have been pretty active since 2001.

Around 7,500 aircraft, but that's total aircraft like the number 6000 above. So lets look at Combat Aircraft.

567 F-15 eagles, 141 in the Air Guard
701 F-16 fighting falcons, over 500 in the guard and reserves
91 F-22 Raptors
50 F-117 Nighthawks

The US by far has the most Modern combat aircraft. Almost 2000 modern combat aircraft. I could still list the Navy and Marines modern combat aircraft, which would take that number even higher. A 1950s air force vs. a modern one would be slaughtered in the air.


Chinese goods rebuttal:

The Chinese economy depends on alot of support from Americans buying their crap, not the other way around.

The US was in the midst of the Great Depression, when WW2 started. In a total war scenario All resources are mobilized. It would actually boost the economy just like World War 2 brought the US out of the Great Depression.

Iranian oil rebuttal:

Iran doesnt supply the US oil. The majority of US oil comes from Canada. Iran could affect global oil prices, but again in a Total War scenario, the Government has ways around those prices.

I am also not advocating an invasion or occupation of Iran, if military action ever comes against Iran it will be the form of a massive air campaign and thats it. Again I am not advocating action against Iran.

The Russians are the ones who would put up the best fight in a war. It would be strategically insane to try to invade and occupy them, just like it would be to do that to China. In a massive conventional war, they dont have to be invaded and occupied. They just have to be contained and broken, economically, industrially, and militarily.

Hi There,

On a one-on-one scenario, Iran will suffer quite extensively in a conflict with America, but should other nations become involved, particularly those of either China or Russia, America will be hit hard, and not just in the Gulf, but on the mainland, too.

It really is irksome this self-deluding belief in one's country's military ability, it's almost like assuming that mainland America is something of a bunker impervious to destruction and decimation, and able to visit the same upon other nations with impugnity...such thinking is as wrong as rape. The way it has been seen by the world at large at how America's 'superior' military might has been bogged down in Iraq by inexperienced amateurs, has more than likely given pause for confident thought about taking you on. Bear in mind, that without there being other coalition forces in Iraq, it is doubtful that Iran would be thought of as a target for the taking.

This thinking that America has defensive weaponry that will easily shoot down all attacks as if swatting flies, is so misguided and immature, that I'm tempted to suggest 'let it all fly', and we'll all see the true measure of America's military. However, considering that when it does 'all fly', thousands upon thousands of ordinary people along with a lot of soldiers, are going to be killed.

I think it is appropriate that Huckabee uses the metaphor of hell as a form of American attack, but what he needs to bear in mind is that Hell will be opened to everyone. I think it is appalling that a presidential candidate should use such rhetoric, obviously it is a race to the keys of power by any means, by any vote, and the bringing upon the people consequences they can ill-afford.

Quite simply...should America attack Iran, it will deservedly be worthy of the name 'Pariah', the minds of the world are set against such a conflict that has been orchestrated and steered by America to come about. You will rightly be reviled and hated. Any presidential candidate carrying a mere modicum of moral conscience would steer America away from the belligerent course it is currently upon. However, the crop of candidates leaves a lot to be desired. Nothing of America is left that resembles the American dream...quite simply America has become a nightmare for this planet, and the only satisfaction that can be drawn is that America will go down the same hole that it seeks to send other nations. That is guranteed.

[edit on 13/1/08 by elysiumfire]

Not really to brag, or anything... But in my opinion the absolute greatest army in the world is the US.

Or at least in terms that the US will never be invaded by ground troops of any nation. The largest and most efficient army in the world, is the citizens of America. This goes along with the militas. By sheer number alone, this should be enough. But it goes beyond that. I think it would be an underestimation to say that many citizens are better equipped than the army itself.

It would probably not make much difference though, if bombs were flying.

I think Huckabee was making an attempt at humor in his comment. Or trying to rally the undoubtedly evangelical dominated crowd. Anyway it was an idiotic comment from an idiotic man.

As for the pissing contest between some of the people in this thread, I think there is an obvious conclusion to be made.

The USA spends far more money than anyone else on defense. They are the technological leaders in many military fronts. They possess a vast military and have an expert knowledge of battlefront logistics.

So did Rome.

I think what you are missing is that there are a whole lot of other factors in winning a war. The USA was beaten in Vietnam because they fought an enemy that didn't fight fair (or fought smart depending upon how you look at it).

Between the debt we owe China, and the control Iran has on the world's oil supply, the USA could be brought to its knees in a couple weeks purely by destroying the value of the dollar- particularly its ability to buy oil.

A significant amount of food in the USA is imported- pretty much all vegetable products. If the dollar loses its buying power, then people cannot afford to eat. Between not being able to eat, and being forced into a presumably unpopular war, the people will quickly react violently.

No tanks, planes, satellites, or ships needed. Simply a matter of manipulating the dollar. China and Iran could take the hit economically. China's economy is roaring and it doesn't have a vastly overvalued currency to lose. For Iran it would be a matter of survival- they could not win in a conventional war.

[edit on 13-1-2008 by erkokite]

[edit on 13-1-2008 by erkokite]

The realistic war scenario between the US and Iran/Russia/China is the Middle East and Taiwan.
Both aren't far for the projection and maintaining russians or chinese military - Iran would be more than willing to let those use military bases. And on top of that, in theory if such war happens, most of the middle east population would support the Russians or Chinese as they have grown tired of the american presence. If the USA cannot defeat the militia men in Iraq, what makes you think it can beat a million trained iranian soldiers going into Iraq?
And Oil is a weapon - even if the US doesnt get most of its oil from the middle east, many other country do and the price would hit 200- 300 a barrel. Try running a war at this cost, it would end at home and not on the battlefield when people cannot fill their tanks or afford basic products.

On a hypothetic neutral battleground, China may take more losses but would win by sheer numbers like the soviets did to germany in ww2. China has as many men (or more) in age of fighting than the entire US population.