Special Forces Convo : Originally Called 'For all those people who think the American Special Force

Quote, from Duncan Falconer (Ex-SBS)'s autobiography,
P409, 'The US Navy Seals, for instance, the US's primary special forces unit and the most heavily funded, and some ten times the size of the SBS, had only one operative allowed to set foot inside Iraq during the entire war, and that was as a guest of the SBS during their first mission, and only then because he happened to have been attached to the SBS prior to the outbreak of war.'

Score, 1-0, Fulltime.

[Edited on 26-4-2004 by browha]

What's the SBS?

*Fill to meet quota*

So how do this make them less elite?

If the US forces arent elite, how come America is the most powerful nation in the world?

I'll pit my girfriends son who is a US Navy Seal/EOD against any other countries elite force anyday

One of their mottos

Equal Opportunity Destroyer
Anywhere Anytime

Actually in my mind, since they only had to dispatch a single troop that makes the forces more elite. Since each troop is so well trained, they only require one to do the job.

Originally posted by QuestForSafety
Actually in my mind, since they only had to dispatch a single troop that makes the forces more elite. Since each troop is so well trained, they only require one to do the job.

SBS (Special Boat Service).

I was under the impression too that US's 'elite' forces have to be trained under the supervision of the SAS/SBS?

Medic - They obviously were not trained/skilled for combat in Iraq, how can you fight a war sensibily without using a single one of your elite forces?
Insite - Special Boat Service, Working to find an online thing that details their selection requirements, if I cant I'll write it up by hand
JustAnIllusion - It has something to do with the armed forces numbering several million +, the variety of culture, the sheer financial resources. Having elite forces doesnt make you powerful. New Zealand have a very strong SAS and they arent powerful.
NetStorm - Not saying SEALS arent good, but they arent AS good. I recommend you read the book I mentioned, it is extremely interesting.
QuestForSafety - Please read 'only then because he happened to have been attached to the SBS'
He shouldnt even have been there... Surely this says something about your own commander's beliefs in the abilities of your special forces

''The minimum standard to aim for is running 5 miles in 40 minutes ; the tests will most certainly include circuit training, sprints, that sort of thing so expect to get a good beasting (ha ha !). There will also be an interview for most candidates on why they want to join. If successful, you will notified, and then be kitted out by the RQM and given a date for the �Induction weekend�.

On this weekend you will be expected to run 8 miles in 60 minutes and a medical inspection will be also be carried out. Before you start the actual selection weekends you will have some drill nights at your local Squadron to work at fitness and map reading. Forget the fancy weapons and specialist training, they may come later.... one word of advice, you need to be DEDICATED - there is a hell of a lot of learning to do, but the winged dagger and service with arguably the top reserve unit on the planet could be yours : so think on that.

On recruit weekend one, you will then need to do a CFT (Combat fitness test ; 8 Miles) in full battle order, e.g. 40lbs Bergen and boots, in around 1hr 30-40 mins. The standard time for the army CFT is 2hs so you can see that good fitness is vital. Generally speaking you will be covering approximately 25k/m across the hills at speeds of 3-5km/h in the initial weekends. ''

'If you get to Test week (weekend 11 of the programme) then this could include the Fan Dance, speeds could be between 3 - 6km/hr. That�s bloody hard work !! There is no set pace for moving across the mountains because it varies according to the day, the activity, the weather, and sometimes the mood of the DS���as you can imagine its important to build up your stamina and that can only be done by beasting yourself on some hills before you get to the 1st weekend. A 1k/m swimming test comes at the end of selection so don't neglect your pool sessions.'

Read this website
and the links aout it directly erlated to the SAS
Another good link

Here too

More on selection --

Boating Week. Candidates must

pass a combat fitness test
pass the SBS swimming test, which demands 600m in 15 minutes , 50m clothed with weapon and belt kit, and 25m underwater.
Complete all canoe trials, including a 5km march with Bergen and canoe and 30km canoe paddle.


Diving Week. Complete a number of dives, generally show confidence and willingness to dive.

Those successful will go on to the joint SAS/SBS selection course

Brecon Beacons phase (3 weeks)- land navigation marches with Bergen and weapon, culminating in " long drag". The majority who drop out will do so in this phase.
Pre-jungle training(2 weeks)- working in four-man patrols.
Jungle Training, Brunei (6 weeks).
Officer week/signals training (1 week).
Support Weapons Training (1 week).
Army Combat Survival Instructor Course (2 weeks)- survival, evasion, resistance, escape; well-known for its harsh Resistance To Interrogation training; the last phase where many will be " binned".
Continuation training takes place mainly at Hereford

Demolitions (2 weeks)
Observation Post Training (1 week)
CQB Course (2 weeks)
Individual Skills Courses (8 weeks)- during this time men will undergo training as Special Forces medics or signallers, or further demolitions training. Officers attend language training and a Special Forces commander's course.
Static Line Parachute Course (3 weeks)- for those who are not qualified paratroopers.
SBS students go on to their own 8-week boating and diving course, including underwater navigation and demolition, negotiating surf zones and navigating a 55km course in the Klepper canoe, and infiltration via submarine. Following this Marines are rated as Swimmer Canoeist Class 3, and entitled to wear the badge of this specialist qualification on the left cuff of their blue and green dress uniforms, " SC" over a wreath.

This and the parachute wings worn on the upper right sleeve are their only distinctions; they wear the same green beret and capbadge as all Royal Marines, or white cap in blues. RM officers do not wear qualification badges, so they have just the parachute wings. For Marines to be promoted to Corporal they must qualify as SC2 and to Sergeant SC3. These advanced training courses emphasize operational planning and training supervision. Promotion to Sergeant also requires passing the Senior Command Course at the CTC, Lympstone.

Newly-qualified swimmer-canoeists will then join an operational troop, but of course training never ceases. They may go through further training in combat medicine, communications, counter-terrorist operations, foreign languages, SDV " driving" and many other skills. Exercises are conducted with friendly nations' units, the closest relations being with the SEALs and Dutch SBS.


Anyone still up for a good argument post a reply after you read those sites

Originally posted by innkue
SBS (Special Boat Service).

I was under the impression too that US's 'elite' forces have to be trained under the supervision of the SAS/SBS?

True, your sniper school was set up by the SBS, and a lot of your men are attached to the SBS/SAS for training, etc
But the SEALs selection process is similar to the Royal Marines, who are effectively the feeders for the SBS... Not really comparable, as the SAS are required to walk 50 miles in something like a day, with a full bergen up to 140 lbs.. The SBS require you to pass SAS selection before you can be considered for SBS selection

Browha just because the troop was there due to being attatched to the boat service, they still probably made use of them. So, when the main base heard that troop got to the war, they probably realized that they never had to deploy one more, since one was already there taking care of the situation.

Troop, means single soldier. Not a whole 'troop' as in several squadrons

I know, which was my entire point in the above posts, that the Elite Forces are so well trained, they only required a single troop (One soldier) to be in battle.

[Edited on 11-2-2004 by QuestForSafety]

Originally posted by browha
Troop, means single soldier. Not a whole 'troop' as in several squadrons

If your referring to a single person, its 'trooper', not troop.

Aussie SaS's were in Iraq doing operations,susing it all out,before anyone else was involved in Iraq and before the Iraq war started.

This whole thing has been talked about before.
Every SF unit in the world has good and bad points. The training or selection is designed for the type of soldier you want to turn out.
Get over it and move on.

This link makes the claim of one Seal in Iraq not so credible...pic from a different site. Same group.

globalspecops.com...



Unless I miss my guess, that pic was taken in Iraq. More than one Seal? Yup. Kinda takes the credibility away. And I know it's not Desert Fox, Desert Storm, Desert Shield. They were there.

Oh, and...

www.specwarnet.com...

SEALs had been present in the Persian Gulf well before the Persian Gulf War broke out with the SEAL participation in Operation Earnest Will. Active in Earnest Will from 1987 until 1989, the SEALs were part of a policing force that was to prevent the Iranians from seeding mines in a maritime seaway used by many of the world's oil tankers. As part of a large special operations task force, SEALs aided in the patrolling and searching of ships suspected of planting mines. The SEALs participated in a shipboard assault on the Iran Ajr, a ship found laying mines by US Army scout helicopters that fired on the helicopters when ordered to stop. The ship and crew was captured with no US casualties.

SEALs were present in the gulf when Iraq invaded Kuwait in August of 1990. Soon after the Iraqi invasion of kuwait NAVSPECWAR deployed a group for the first time, consisting of members of SEAL Team 5, Navy Special Boat Units, and three Kuwait i combat craft and marine units that had managed to make it across the border before the Iraqi's sealed it off. Eventually SEALs from Teams One, Three, and Five were in country and serving in various missions.

SEALS were also active in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. At this point most of what they did is still classified, but it is known that around 250 SEALs were deployed in and around Iraq preceeding the start of hostilities.

SEALs also captured and held the Mukarayin Dam, 57 miles from Baghdad, for five days in April to prevent the dam's destruction by forces loyal to Saddam Hussein, which would have flooded much of Baghdad. With members of Poland's GROM assisting, the SEALs fast-roped from Pave Lows and first captured the dam, powerstation, and related buildings and then searched the dam for hidden explosives that may have been set before their arrival. There was no resistance nor were any charges found.

On April 1st, SEALs were part of the group that rescued Private Lynch from a hospital and recovered the bodies of nine Army soldiers who had died in an ambush.



Need I go on? One Seal in Iraq?

Im sure the SBS is a very elite orginization with lots of training also, but counting the number of seals in Iraq will tell you NOTHING about how elite they are. There were like 150,000 other American troops over there, does that mean that thoes 150,000 troops are more elite than the Seals? Also, aren't Seals primarilly for Amphibious operations anyways, and if I rember correctially Iraq has only a small coastal to access the sea, that was one of the reasons that Saddam invaded Kuwait in the first place? Now if you had a story about the Seals getting over-run by someone, like regular soljers, this post would make sense.

Zedd -- I concede that to you, but I dont know why Falconer said what he did then... I shall have to investigate more.

Wgatenson -- A Special Forces' eliteness is measured in how competent they are in how many operations/scenarios. If the SEALS were judged inadequete for Iraq, then they would not have sent any/many men... I am not going by numbers, because there are ONLY 400ish SAS and 250ish SBS men...

You dont deploy troops incompetent of fightning in a certain scenario unless you absolutely have to, and the fact that 150,000 troops were there means that it was a pretty committed war effort, so why did they go to war without their elite guys there? Becuase they werent up to the job