World’s Largest Supercollider Could Destroy the Universe

I feel certain of something. There is only one type of research that governments spend insane amounts of money on.

weapons research

If there were a force in the multiverse so infinitely powerful as to devour an entire universe, it would have happened already. I put my trust in mother nature and her safe guards against this sort of thing.

We could destroy ourselves, but the ENTIRE UNIVERSE? No way!

Originally posted by apc
These are not black holes. It has to be big enough to be black to be a black hole. These things are smaller than a photon. They have squat for mass. They couldn't attract a speck of dust. They are just very very very very very very very small singularities that evaporate in a minuscule fraction of a second.

Good point! But frankly, I don't know if the cross section of proton absorption, but the black hole, is defined by the Schwarzchild radius, or it is larger due to quantum effects. If it's anomalously large, the low mass of the BH doesn't matter. It'll keep eating stuff.

reply to post by IMAdamnALIEN

We could destroy ourselves, but the ENTIRE UNIVERSE? No way!

P R O P O R T I O N A L I T Y! I don't know what size the Earth is compared to the Milky Way much less to the whole Universe. Each spiral galaxy - of which there are billions - is thought to have a Super Massive Black Hole at its center. That is the source of the gravity that keeps 200 - odd billion stars in orbit. If that black hole has been there since shortly after the Big Bang, then whatever we create on Earth is IRRELEVANT.

reply to post by donwhite

Regarding the USA Superconducting Super Collider -- I agree 100% with your post, Don.

All this talk of black holes and doomsday aside, the USA had plans to move forward in a hugely significant way, and make massive contributions to pure science and human understanding -- it was abandoned in 1993 by Bill Clinton (and Congress) as too expensive.

This decision pretty much heralded the ended the era of "Big Science" in the USA. Since then, we have never had the will to propose or complete such a significant project.

It is interesting that the cost of $15 billion dollars to complete the SCSC is about what we, in the USA, spend in ONE SINGLE MONTH on the Iraqi war.

Weird double post. How did that happen?

[edit on 12-1-2008 by Buck Division]

I just think that anyone would have to end up debating the physicists on this matter, and I have seen and looked at so many science papers just about what seems like every conceivable theory in the end, I think even the physicists would be shocked if anything did happen. If you have ever read Dr. Michio Kaku, a civilization would have to build a super-collider out in Space before it was large enough to really get to the energies needed to produce anything that would be a concern. CERN is not even close to the energy produced by Nature out in the Universe, not even close. In fact it is so small still that they only hope to come up with anything new to help out theories about the Nature of the Universe. But still some of the phsicsists like Dr. Stephen Giddings think that it is the New Frontier. Actually with Plamsas and physics of this sort, the goal someday still is probably to find a way off of this Planet. For some reason, I think being Stuckies on this Planet -- or Inmates on this Planet - since humans really can not get very far into SpaceTime is far worse then the imaginations that may come along with pondering how simply the force of gravity is not the main force with creating a black hole of that size. The quantum forces that probably limit what will happen are so much more powerful that to breech into the Classical Relative Universe of where we are at, just will not happen.
When everything is considered, there is so much going on that no one can really see that ever since it was found out with things like Cosmic Rays, and Neutons from the Sun passing right through you and whatever else has been found out recently, the perspective of humans producing the kinds of energy needed to do anything important is not even close when it comes to the thought of CERN even thinking it will produce something that can not be controlled, and even then that has been done already.

Anti-matter has been produced but can only be produced in such small amounts (if it could then be used for Space Travel) that to even make a small enough amount to actually think it is an amount would take something like another 200 years. What they have made is stored in some sort of magnetic containment field, because if it came in contact with regular matter of this Universe, the explosion would be far greater than some nanoscopic black hole that may happen when CERN comes on line.

Plasmas are very difficult to understand and even producing that for Space Travel will take a long time to understand. Just trying to come up with a theory about what is going on in the Sun that produces life in this Solar System can not even be understood yet. Yes, I am afraid that humans are really just Stuckies in this Inertial Frame of Reference and unless some real breakthroughs come along, any human on this Planet will still be on this Planet for a long, long time yet. Other words have also been used, but still a Prison Planet, or anything else is just another adjective used to describe how much humans still yet do not know much about anything yet as to total knowledge that yes could be used both to create and destroy.
Ah, then the rub about knowledge!

This reminds me of Dan Brown's book "Angles and Demons." The gist of the plot is that CERN create a significant amount of anti-matter with a partical accelerator, for the purpose of re-creating the conditions that existed at the Big Bang: something out of nothing. Of course, the anti-matter falls into the wrong hands and is used as a weapon on the Vatican. (I actually think this book is better than The Da Vinci Code)

I doubt there's much risk here. As many others have said, there's no way for CERN to create a large enough sample to put the planet, much less "the universe," at risk.

Venture Bros. Episode WIP

FADE IN WIDE - Geeky looking people work around a large steaming tube thing. They say technical things. Preparing for something. A "Where you can disCERN the difference!" poster hangs on the wall.

CLOSE IN - Some guy with glasses at a console with graphs and stuff
"Everyone ready?" - Glasses Guy

WIDE PAN - Room from above
General sounds of readiness erupt from all the nerds. They put away their calculators and notepads and step away from the tube.

CLOSE IN - One particularly extra-geeky scientist gets out a pack of cigarettes.
"Smoke 'em if you got 'em." - Extra Geeky Guy
"When did you start smoking?" - off screen

CLOSE IN - Guy with glasses
"Lets just hope this goes better than last time...Heh-"

WIDE - Room from above
The geeks look around and laugh nervously.

CUT TO - A past test run of the tube
A fat zombie-Elvis appears out of nowhere near two unsuspecting scientists.
"Drugs! Brains!" - zombie-Elvis
Zombie-Elvis bites into the first scientist's head and rips off the other scientist's arm.
"AHH! Kill him! Kill the King!" - Second scientist
As zombie-Elvis goes to attack the second scientist, Extra Geeky Guy runs in from off screen and blows zombie-Elvis's head off with a shotgun.
"Thats why I keep 'Dara' in my desk DAVE." - Extra Geeky Guy patting his gun while looking down at the second scientists with an attitude
"UUuuaaahhh..." - the second scientist passes out from blood loss

CUT TO - Guy With glasses
"Anyway, here goes." - Glasses Guy
Glasses Guy presses a big red power button and you hear the Macintosh sound play in the background. The Extra Geeky Guy can be seen over the Glasses Guy's shoulder coughing hard.

WIDE - Room from above
As a techno-ray-gun sound grows in intensity, the geeks appear increasingly nervous. After a few seconds the sound reaches its peak and terminates in an unimpressive pop. Just then everyone in the room changes into the apes from "Planet of the Apes."
"Aww, SH-" - The Glasses Guy

CUT TO - A popular cafe in France
The waiter says something in French to a patron who politely nods approval. Suddenly, everyone turns into apes.
"Sacrebl-" - Waiter

CUT TO - Cuba
Castro is giving an eight hour speech in Cuban accented English.
"...because of America!" - Castro waits for the cheers to calm down
"Thats why...umm..." - Castro looks around for something to say - "..we will succeed!"
Suddenly, everyone turns into apes. Castro's eyes grow wide in shock.
"Not.. AGAIN!" - Castro says angrily
Castro picks up an AK-47 from under the podium and starts madly firing into the masses of apes.
"Vive la rev-" - Castro is overrun by apes - "MOTHERFU-"

CUT TO - Oval office
The president is meeting with a few members of his cabinet.
"Barring something crazy like, oh I dunno, an asteroid hitting the planet or something, haha, I think this plan of yours could finally give the world peace within in our lifetimes, Mr. President." - Smooth Cabinet Guy
Suddenly, everyone in the room becomes apes. A car swerves and crashes off screen. Random gunshots and screams can be heard from the hallway. The wail of sirens increases and behind the President fires start all over Washington DC.
"Huh.. Ever have one of those days where you wonder 'Why'd I even get up?'" - Smooth Cabinet Guy
"Just get out." - Mr. President looking grave

CUT TO - Original science lab with all the Geeky-apes
"I think it is safe to postulate that we are all fired." - Extra Geeky Guy getting his shotgun from a desk
"It just you and me now, Dara." - Extra Geeky Guy lights up another cigarette

TITLE SEQUENCE

Originally posted by HoonieSkoba
This reminds me of Dan Brown's book "Angels and Demons."

Haha! That is right!

No wonder all this has a very familiar feel to it! I am surprised that nobody has noticed this before. This is almost identical to the premise at the start of Dan Brown's book (which BTW was far superior to his more successful and later "Da Vinci Code" book, in my humble opinion.)

Very cool observation, Hoonie!

This is certainly a futuristic society we are getting into...so many new tech advances; it truly is remarkable but something like this in the wrong hands can be very negative and potentially life threatening.

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole

The Cernier Company or CERN, the world’s largest physics research firm, is currently in the process of building what would be the world’s largest working supercollider. Known as “Large Hadron Collider,” or LHC, the device is 27 kilometers (16.7 miles) long and resides in a tunnel approximately 100 meters beneath the Franco-Swiss border, just outside of Geneva.

By accelerating protons toward each other at 99.999999% the speed of light the LHC can recreate conditions similar to those that resulted from the Big Bang, ultimately alighting a great deal about the particles and forces that comprise our Universe.

These supercolliders have been around for awhile, but there has never been one on this scale. Scientists say this supercollider will have the ability to ability to create tiny black holes as well. I was quite stunned to hear they were considering creating one of these when this massive machine is completed.

And while Physicists have the logistics of the LHC well in hand ideas about its outcome are strictly theoretical. According to one scenario tiny black holes could be produced which hopefully would decay into what is known as Hawking radiation (the tinier the black hole, the faster it evaporates). If these black holes fail to decay, however, the consequences could be disastrous.

I know that when the first atomic bomb was built there were rumors/concerns of it starting off a chain reaction, in turn destroying earth. But this is a black hole we are talking about. There are no guarantees that it will decay after it's created. If anything went wrong, it could end up devouring our whole planet.

While I'm sure much could be learned from such experiments, I don't think the rewards outweigh the risks on this one. What do you all think?

If this is true, and im getting a little bit off track with this, but, we could potentially have a catastrophic weapon. If Aliens truly exist, this would be the time to show up.

Seriously though, I think this is brilliant, we're only in the opening stages of true knowledge, and the only reason we're not taking our first steps on Mars right now, is cause of corrupt institutions like the international banks and our hole credit system.

How many space stations do you think we could have if funding wasn't a problem?


Our true nature is to explore, but I guess now, we're best known for Inhumane Wars, which is horrible since now we think we can create black holes. Hahaha


I just hope we dont take a step back in advancing cause time could run out in a couple thousand years.

On the positive side
If CERN and the LHC instantaneously vanish, we won't have to worry about how well the share portfolio is performing for very long

I think what will most likely happen is we'll find out that we haven't made an LHC big enough yet.

reply to post by buddhasystem


I want you to know, if this thing destroys us, I'm holding you personally responsible.


Since you are working on this project; how about some more info?

Um i am not into the 2012 doomsday twaddle or any other end of the world stuff, but for some reason this project is giving me goosebumps. Dunno why but just got a bad feeling about this.....

realistically, IMO, if CERN did infact create a self sustaining black hole, it wouldn't be what killed us. What killed us would be the collision of the moon to the earth as a result of the massive gravity swell created by the blackhole as it increased in size. The moon would hit with such force that it would cause the tectonic plates to fracture and melt in some areas, as well as massive tidal waves, earthquakes, and explosions etc....This is what would destroy us far before the crust collapsed under the weight exerted on it from the center of blackhole.

Cheers,

Camain

Okay, here's a really "out-there" theory: I've read Seven Thunder's linked-to article about the Big Bang machine, and noticed that it was from 1999. The article said the machine was almost complete and would be running in a few months.

So, this may sound totally whacko, but bear with me for a second: when you look into the paranormal forum and the UFO forum, it seems that around the same time (1999) stuff has started to increasingly happen -- more and more UFO sightings every year, the "black-eyed kids" no one had ever heard of before, strange dimensional "glitches" etc. etc.

Could it be that the firing up of the Big Bang machine had unintended (and maybe still unknown) side effects and has opened minuscule holes into other dimensions which those things can come through? Maybe the tiny black holes that just "evaporated" have actually done something that no one noticed, i.e. open portals to other dimensions...

Now, don't ask me for proof for this; it's just a really weird hypothesis that I came up with when I was reading this thread. But it's definitely interesting to ponder...

......well before I talked about the garbage problem w're having and maybee we could use this black hole to dispose of all the garbage but rethinking we could better use this black hole that will be created to get rid of all the mafia and camorra guys...

reply to post by Blaine91555


I work on computing for the LHC, for the experiments and the collider itself you can browse www.cern.ch and Wikipedia, for Atlas and CMS.

(however, I was on the team that prototyped the Atlas TRT many years ago)



[edit on 12-1-2008 by buddhasystem]

Very Interesting thread! Incidentally, I was just reading this article:Dominium model at Scientific America.
It mentions this new CERN project, Brookhaven, etc. but also proposes that mini synthetic black holes are stable. ( meaning they won't collapse) An exerpt:

How would it happen? Once the stable sample of black-hole material is formed it starts going to work compacting matter down. As the Beast feeds on surrounding matter, it gets heavier and sinks through the floor of the lab. Its weight would cause it to continue to sink deeper into the Earth. Eventually, it would reach the core where gravitational pressures would help force-feed the little Beast. The Earth would not be able to implode all at once, rather competing grains would hinder the progress of adjacent mass like one can observe in an hour glass. Although the final destiny is certain once the process begins, it would not be able to occur all at once. As the Beast consumes the Earth from the inside out, internal volume would be lost. The Earth’s crust would no longer fit snugly and would be readjusting continuously as a result. Earthquakes would become commonplace, and their intensity would be unlike anything recorded in human history. As the Earth loses internal volume, some areas would sink faster than others…and the oceans would rush in. Eventually, so much internal volume would be lost that the crust would buckle and rupture, which would create massive rift volcanoes spewing noxious gas into the atmosphere. And so on…