If Satan Is Not Omnipotent....

He could have and He did. But humans messed it up- not Him. We wanted to and still want to do it our way.

We messed it up because God allowed us to.He didn't have to let Lucifer rebel did he,he could have stopped everything at any time couldn't he?

Why did Satan and the angels rebel? Free will

Angels don't have free will,they were created to love God,they had no choice and that kinda love is hollow and unfulfilling to the reciever.

Originally posted by jakyll
We messed it up because God allowed us to.

Right. Free will.

He didn't have to let Lucifer rebel did he,he could have stopped everything at any time couldn't he?

Your entire question as to why God didn't blast Satan immediately and the fallen angels I think is already answered in the New Testament. I'm hesitant to mention it here, though, because my memory is foggy and I don't want to mislead anyone. I'll see if I can find it.

Angels don't have free will,they were created to love God,they had no choice and that kinda love is hollow and unfulfilling to the reciever.

The rebellion of Satan and the fallen angels pretty much blows that theory. But, like the angels, men were also created to love Him and be loved in return. But it is not love if there is no choice. Period.

reply to post by helen670

Angels were not created with a body..therefore are bodiless and immortal spirits.Angels are divided into ranks according to degrees of perfection....

But what has that got to do with what i said,

Lucifer could not manifest something that God had not already planned out surely!

God never gave angelic beings are a choice......they simply loved Him on their own accord.

Well if they had no choice how could they love God on their own accord,they weren't created that way?

Hell?
gee, it took me over 3 hours to reply to your post....show me where?

lol,sorry.
I asked,

As the sole Creator, didn’t God create the great bottomless pit called Hell?

You replied,

God created hell.......it is also known as outer darkness,being away from God.

I asked,

The Bible does not say when God created Hell, but wouldn’t it have to be before or on the same day he created man and woman? Man and woman were created on the sixth and last day With Hell ready and waiting, doesn’t it appear that God expected Adam and Even to fall?

God did not create Hell.......Darkness.When Satan fell away from God........He led himself to outer Darkness, away from God.
God created man Adam(means.. first man)and in turn man chose to be away from God.......from breaking the one commandement of God.

Also,the Commandments didn't exist until the time of Moses,so none were broken by Adam & Eve.

Correction....Christianity believes that Jesus Christ died for all mankind....

If he died for the sins committed in the past,present and future doesn't that mean God knew humans would go on sinning? Did he know that Jesus' "sacrafice" would have so little effect on the world?

reply to post by ReginaAdonnaAaron

Free Will is the answer to most of these questions.

I think free will from the hand of God is one of the biggest myths in Christianity.

The problem here is that God knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. Its knowledge cannot be wrong. There is not a single event that it has not foresaw. Given that it created the Universe the way it did, do we have free will? Consider that when God made the Universe it could see every possible result of what it was doing. Which means: it could not create something without knowing what the results would be, and without knowing how it would be affected (and effect) the things around it.Let's say that Fred has a choice that will save his life, to accept God or not to accept God and the final choice is to be made tomorrow. God knows already what choice he will make - God cannot be wrong therefore Fred cannot choose otherwise to what God has predicted. When God created the chain of events that made Fred it also knew that it was making Fred's choice for him, and knew how the various circumstances and character would make him choose either right or wrong. Fred would go forth and make that very decision that God knew he would make, and by virtue that God knowingly set up all the factors that affected his decision, it was not up to Fred but to God to decide how Fred would fare.

The links below give arguments against free will for humans and also for God himself! (there definatly worth a read.)

reply to post by AshleyD

The rebellion of Satan and the fallen angels pretty much blows that theory. But, like the angels, men were also created to love Him and be loved in return. But it is not love if there is no choice. Period.

Everyone seems to be missing my point...if nothing negative existed in Heaven then Lucifer could not be tempted and corrupted by nothing,its impossible for it to be otherwise.

And only God would be able to create something as powerful as Evil!

Originally posted by jakyll
Everyone seems to be missing my point...if nothing negative existed in Heaven then Lucifer could not be tempted and corrupted by nothing,its impossible for it to be otherwise.

No, Hon. I understand your point. It goes back to the centuries old assumption: If God created everything then He must have created evil.

But we are told Satan was originally created as a perfect, beautiful being. He later made the choice to rebel and stated the infamous "I wills." He wasn't into the whole "service" thing. His own vanity and power got the better of him. Where did the iniquity and vanity come from? I don't know. But it seems that he didn't become horrid overnight but it was a gradual rebellion that later led to his entire downfall.

I feel it is one of those things that will be explained to us later. There are many things in the Bible that causes even the most knowledgeable Christian to ask, "Huh?" But we are told all knowledge will be given to us at the end and all of our questions will be answered. We are told some things are specifically concealed to us but for good reasons. If you want me to give some examples, just ask. There is a very good reason, I promise.

reply to post by jakyll

But God has more power.

This is as easy as I know how to say it. God dwells inside of you. You are the mirror of God. What you do determines how the God in you will develop and whether that nature will be altruistic or perverse.

There are truths that have not been told that one must uncover for oneself.

Jesus is the example Christians should follow. The nature of the true and living God is found in Him and what He did.

What is troubling you? The fact that so called Christians have relinquished their rights to the power of God. Wouldn’t it be easier for those in confrontation to know how to heal rather than beat the sick.



[edit on 12-1-2008 by Siren]

reply to post by Siren

What is troubling you?

Nothing is troubling me.
I am simply on a quest for knowledge,and the best way to get that is to ask questions!

reply to post by jakyll


Hi, jakyll, once again.....


Hell?
I had meant to say 'Hades'...nether regions(atmosphere, outer darkness)
It was not a hell as we know of it now......away from God!
New planets are becoming known all the time, it could be one of the planets(ALIENS?)
Satan and his fallen Angels are free to roam, because they chose to be away from God.

I said in previous reply///''God never gave angelic beings are a choice......they simply loved Him on their own accord.''
I meant to say God gave them free will as He did with man.....
:shk:
(sorry,I did say at the end of my post that It may contain mistakes,!)
you ,answered///''Well if they had no choice how could they love God on their own accord,they weren't created that way? ''

If someone did something nice for me, I would be grateful for that, wouldn't you?
The Angels accepted God on their own terms.....their intellect is above mans and



'' you said....''Also,the Commandments didn't exist until the time of Moses,so none were broken by Adam & Eve. ''
Actually God gave man one Commandment.....To not eat of the tree,'Thou shall surely die.....they were given one commandment and they both failed...God then asked them to repent in a nice sort of way.....but Adam put the blame on Eve and Eve put the blame on the Serpant.
God saw that none wanted to repent and gave them their orders.....nature and all changed because of this breaking of the Law.

''If he died for the sins committed in the past,present and future doesn't that mean God knew humans would go on sinning?

Yes of-course!
That it why God Took Flesh and became Man.....this was prophesied early in Genesis!(see below)

Did he know that Jesus' "sacrafice" would have so little effect on the world?''

But it did have effect.......ALOT of effect!
The Long awaited Messiah, spoken by the Old Testament Prophets came true....as this was the LOGOS(WORD) of God.

Sin came after the fall.....man did not know evil because all was good.
Adam and Eve did not know Evil.......they were created all good, nothing but goodness around them.......Till Satan paid them a visit in the Garden oF Eden!
To SIN means 'to miss the mark'.....
Jesus Christ destroyed SIN.
How?
In Genesis......Since God loves us all and knew we would freely accept Him in time and repent of whatever ....He promised to all ''And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise (destroy) thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel” (Gen. 3:15).
With these words the Lord passed judgment on the devil and consoled our foreparents with the promise that at some time a Descendant of the Woman will strike the “head” itself of the snake-devil, who tempted them.
But along with this,
the woman’s Descendant Himself will suffer from the snake, who will as if “bruise his heel,” i.e., will cause Him physical suffering....
(Galatians 3:16)
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one: And to thy Seed, which is Jesus Christ.

So, how did Christ destroy Death, and make man once again be united with God?
''O death, where is thy sting?
O Hades, where is thy victory?

Man was once again allowed to ENTER the heavenly realms, whilst before all men good and bad went to the nether regions(Hades)......experiencing nothingness!.
Just think how it would feel to be alone for eternity,without no one but yourself?

Here is another quote from the Bible about experiencing DEATH(spiritual and physical)
"As all die in Adam,
Here///''so in Christ shall all revive" (1 Cor. 15:22)
In Christ we are set free to enter...If we are found worthy to by Gods Mercy!
Another quote....."shall come forth: they that have done good unto the resurrection of life,
and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).
And here are some other quotes of interest.......The erection of the copper serpent, which saved bitten Hebrews from venom when they looked at it (Num. 21:9).
to the New Testament........Freedom from the bite of the spiritual serpent-devil through the power of the Cross (John 3:14).
O death where is thy sting?

helen.....

If God is omnipresent then God is in and of all things, including Hell and Satan, therefore God is not only pure love and goodness, God is also evil and wickedness.

You're so deceived by your churches and you're so deceived by your God.

If God is thus in Satan, then Satan is omnipotent.

[edit on 13-1-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
If God is omnipresent then God is in and of all things, including Hell and Satan, therefore God is not only pure love and goodness, God is also evil and wickedness.

You're so deceived by your churches and you're so deceived by your God.

If God is thus in Satan, then Satan is omnipotent.

[edit on 13-1-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

''Omnipresent''.........(Psalm 138:7-12)
Yes, God always, throughout all time,is present everywhere!


God is the only one who is 'Omnipotent'!
(Gen.17:1,Luke 1:37)
In order for man to create something, man needs something to begin his work with?
True?
It is a correct and rightful truth that,man can not make something out of nothing!

God however, can make everything possible through His WORD(LOGOS).

Satan is a fallen Angel(Lucifer)....created by the WORD of God.
God is NOT in Satan.......Satan is all evil because he chose to be away from all that was good...therefore no goodness dwells in him!

Our own fallen state has caused Nature to change.....and it is still happening...Nature changes with what man does with it!
We create our own happiness and misfortunes, God does not do this!
We have been fore-warned, but we do not listen!

Satan is unable to attack God, therefore attacks with all his might . Gods creation which is man!
Satan and his demons attack through our thoughts ......they even become an angel of light to deceive us through other means....
As there are fallen Angels, there are all also pure and kind Angels that are always present(visible and invisible)with us...again we have the last word and action as to what path to take.
God does not dwell in Evil....

helen

Nice Bible verses, Helen. I'll just ignore the fact that you didn't disagree with my analysis, that which came from God because he is within me.

Have a nice day.

I suppose in the future, if I continue to disagree with your illogic, that I'll be labled a deceitful demon morphing into the form of the light to sway others into the realm of Satan!

P.s. God dwelleth in all things, for God is omnipresent. Please don't ignore that

[edit on 13-1-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Nice Bible verses, Helen. I'll just ignore the fact that you didn't disagree with my analysis, that which came from God because he is within me.

Have a nice day.

I suppose in the future, if I continue to disagree with your illogic, that I'll be labled a deceitful demon morphing into the form of the light to sway others into the realm of Satan!

P.s. God dwelleth in all things, for God is omnipresent. Please don't ignore that

[edit on 13-1-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Hi/

I highly doubt that you can become a deceitful demon 'morphing into the form of light'........For in order this to happen, you would be a slave of the Devil and receive nothing in return!


Just remember this quote from Scripture///We wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities,
against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against the spirits of wickedness under the heaven (Eph. 6:12)

helen

I do receive nothing Does this now make me a slave of Satan?

Again, how can you say that God does not dwell in hate and anger if God is omnipresent?

I think you don't know your God too well.

Have a good day, Helen.

LOVE

i honestly don't feel like looking back through this relatively short thread to see if someone has already said this as i am in a bit of a mood, but i'll say it anyway

satan could just be really, REALLY potent

...just playing devil's advocate

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

satan could just be really, REALLY potent

Sad, but, true and to me it is obvious from the state of the world. Jesus also said this when he said "Blessed are you when MEN persecute you". It appears as though everyone wants power and not peace. Pursuing power ends in chaos and pursuing peace ends in power.

reply to post by helen670

If someone did something nice for me, I would be grateful for that, wouldn't you?

Of course.But thats because i know about evil.
The Angels didn't know anything about it until the creation of humans.
They are pure beings who do what is right.Why? Because they don't know what wrong is!

God saw that none wanted to repent and gave them their orders.....nature and all changed because of this breaking of the Law.

Going off what information we have Adam & Eve would not have been able to understand what is right and what is wrong as that duality did not exist in their lives,they also would not have understood what repenting means.If you knew nothing of evil,how would you resist it?

Jesus Christ destroyed SIN.

If he did so,why are those who sin still being condemned?
Sin must still exist as Satan still exists!

Everyone has been brainwashed into this,LUCIFER=SATAN/DEVIL....LUCIFER=SERPENT IN EDEN.

And this has come about because of one person,St Jerome.

Now,the Tanakh does not at any point actually mention the rebellion and fall of Satan by name,the word Satan simply means adversary and we can see this in the Book of Job.Satan,working with God tests Jobs faith.Here,Satan is not evil,he is doing God's will.As we are still tested today does this mean that Satan is good or evil? (it should be noted as well,that in Job he is working with God several generations after the Garden of Eden incident when he had supposedly turned bad.)
St Jerome translated Helel as Lucifer in the Vulgate.(This may also have been done as a pointed jab at a bishop named Lucifer, a contemporary of Jerome who argued to forgive those condemned of the Arian heresy.)
But Helel,is the morning star,a Babylonian/Canaanite God who was the son of another Babylonian/Canaanite god Shahar, God of the Dawn.
The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-shachar), meaning "Helel (bright one, or praising one, son of Shachar (dawn)".



We all know the famous line from Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

2 very important things need to be pointed out here.In Revelations Jesus says,

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star

So if Jesus is making such a claim,how can Lucifer be the morning star???

Jesus being the morning star makes sence when you consider this verse from 2 Peter.1:

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

More importantly is how these very same lines are written in the Tanakh.

14:4 You will recite this parable about the king of Babylonia: How has the oppressor come to an end, the arrogance been ended? 14:10 They will all proclaim and say to you, "You also have been stricken as we were; you are compared to us.14:11 Brought down to the nether-world were your pride and the tumult of your stringed instruments; maggots are spread out under you, and worms are your covers.14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O glowing morning star; been cut down to the ground O conqueror of nations?

Here,it is quite clearly stated.There is no mention of Lucifer,Satan or any fallen angel.It refers only to a King of Babylon.
The Jewish Encyclopedia reports that "it is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride,followed by a fall,borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star"




A curious thing about the serpent in the garden of Eden is this,

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

If a serpent didn't move on its belly as it does now then how did it originally move!?










[edit on 15-1-2008 by jakyll]

I think the whole concept of Hell proves that Satan isn't evil,that he is nothing more than an angel doing God's will.

Hell is a place of eternal suffering,Satan rules Hell.

But if he was really against God and he wanted to anger God even more,then Hell should be like Heaven for wicked people!!

Yet it isn't.
Satan corrupts and then punishes those who have done his will
Which makes no sence whatsoever!
Surely he would reward as God does to the good and the righteous.