Sicko is nothing but LIES

reply to post by chissler

is the prevention, treatment, and management of illness and the preservation of mental and physical well being

So how is feeding me, giving me water and protecting me with shelter not "prevention, treatment, and management of illness and the preservation of mental and physical well being?"

Once a national socialized healthcare program is established then all those homeless shelters and soup kitchens fall under that definition you posted from the wikipedia.

If you just want to arbitrarily draw a line of definition down separating these things that are all the same then you can do that but I'm pretty sure in a court of law keeping me fed, hydrated and out of the cold will fall under healthcare. Hell, get a decent enough attorney and I'd be willing to bet that air conditioning will qualify as healthcare. Let's not forget cable television and internet access for some people's well being.

Feed me and prevent me from starving. Give me water and prevent me from drying. Give me shelter and prevent me from freezing.

Still, even if I agree that food and water are somehow not required for ones own health how would the system support the population once people stop working? You rattled off those countries with socialized healthcare but have you seen their unemployment rates lately? There's no reason to work. Spend all day drinking moonshine and passing out drunk in the street. Your whole life is already taken care of for you by the government.

You make all of these unfounded generalizations on socialized medicine, but have you ever lived in a society that operated under such an umbrella? It's nice to have an opinion, it's nice to read an article or two and try to substantiate such an opinion, but how can you continue to make such statements after being told by people who have lived in a "socialized health care state" their whole lives. My health care is provided for me, but I still have to work.

If you want to "lawyer up" and approach the federal government stating that our socialized health care should allow you to have free room and board, then by all means. But we both know it's completely baseless.

As for the dreaded unemployment rate you speak of, take a moment and have a peak.

List of Countries by Unemployment Rate

Canada, a socialized health care state, is listed as 5.9%. America is listed as 4.8%. So we're looking at a 1.1% difference in the two nations. Care to rethink your approach? All of your unfounded generalizations that are merely looking to garner the knee-jerk response are being refuted by simple facts.

While were at it, and since Cuba was the target of this thread, look at their unemployment rate. 1.9%! If you have the time, start comparing numbers to socialized health care systems to the "American way".

[edit on 8-1-2008 by chissler]

reply to post by chissler


So why do they work in Canada and Cuba?

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


If you genuinely believe that a socialized health care equates to the ability to refrain from working, then you really need to read up on what socialized health care actually is.

Take some time and read up.

Canada's health care system is a group of socialized health insurance plans that provides coverage to all Canadian citizens. It is publicly funded and administered on a provincial or territorial basis, within guidelines set by the federal government. Under the health care system, individual citizens are provided preventative care and medical treatments from primary care physicians as well as access to hospitals, dental surgery and additional medical services. With a few exceptions, all citizens qualify for health coverage regardless of medical history, personal income, or standard of living.

Canada's health care system is the subject of much political controversy and debate in the country. Some question the efficiencies of the current system to deliver treatments in a timely fashion, and advocate adopting a private system similar to the United States. Conversely, there are worries that privatization would lead to inequalities in the health system with only the wealthy being able to afford certain treatments.

Regardless of the political debate, Canada does boast one of the highest life expectancies (about 80 years) and lowest infant morality rates of industrialized countries, which many attribute to Canada's health care system.

Canadian Health Care

That's just a small introduction, but you can find much more information on that website. After getting some of the facts, maybe we can continue this. But if you genuinely believe that our health care system enables us the ability to remain unemployed, there really isn't much left to discuss.

I do look forward to continuing this though.

reply to post by chissler


Yeah, I do believe it opens the door to living unemployed. I'm just guessing for one reason or another it hasn't caught on with Canada yet like it has in France for instance.

As it is in the US the middle class are working and being taxed at such a rate that it is still slightly more profitable to work than to not. For the "poor" in the US it is infinitely more profitable not to work. In fact, even the slightest of bit of income for the poor in the US makes them worse off than if they had no income whatsoever. I have some choice family members who refuse to find employment because of this situation.

At my pay rate and current level of taxation I am profitable by a ration or 2.5:1 take home vs. taxation. Universal healthcare would make it more profitable for me not to be employed. All this assumes you are correct and that food and shelter would not be provided. Imagine if I'm correct?
This is one of the reasons many of our politicians who once touted universal healthcare as a way to buy votes have begun to push programs that would tie eligibility for healthcare to be directly tied to employment status. Ironicaly making the current healthcare situation for some disabled and ill much worse under the new models of US universal healthcare than they currently have it.

And the fed being the almighty new god will always reserve the right to shoot me in the head should it not accept my "lawyering up" as it were. Wait a minute! If they control the healthcare they wouldn't have to shot me in the head. They could just refuse to treat me. Eugenics through universal healthcare.

A few documented problems with socialized medicine. Eugenics not being the least.

Dead Meat

But do you not see the flaw in your approach? Your taking the American approach to it's current system, and correlating these same facts onto a completely different system. You state that it is more profitable for the American poor to remain unemployed. This is probably correct. I can state the same that in Canada, it might be better for some people to not work than to make minimum wage. The incentive is very small, but existent nonetheless. However, this exists in most industrialized societies, I'm sure. So it really doesn't hinge much on socialized medicine.

As for how unemployment has taken hold in France, their rate is clearly listed as 8.7%. Higher, for sure.. but I wouldn't consider this to be a justification of some of your statements. I have not researched this, but I'm willing to say confidently that there are more factors to consider here than their health care.

Health care is one need that we as individuals required. To give it to everyone is certainly a luxury we appreciate. But it does not enable people to life freely.

Food, shelter, leisure, etc., are all costs that do not come for free. Even in our socialized state. If you want something, you need to work for it. (Just not health care)

Originally posted by chissler
Health care is one need that we as individuals required.

So........food is not a need that we as individuals require?

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


You selectively edited my post to misrepresent it. If you read further, you will see that I've said it was one basic need that we have provided for us in Canada. But others such as food, shelter, etc., are not.

reply to post by chissler


I know what I did and it wasn't to misrepresent. It was to save space and keep it neat. Even with the next line included you're saying food is not not a need that we as individuals require.

So is it?

I guess you really mean it is since you repeated it:

you will see that I've said it was one basic need that we have provided for us in Canada. But others such as food, shelter, etc., are not.

Maybe I'm just some biased hate-filled run my SUV over the bones of the poor kind of American but food seems to be a more important need than a dental cleaning or tetanus shot.

Let's get ready for a tongue twister here...

Are you implying that I'm implying that food is not a necessary need for human survival?

What I stated was health care is a basic human need that the Canadian government provides for all of it citizens. In your previous posts here, you have made it clear that you believe governments who operate under a socialized health care system also provide food, shelter, etc., at no cost. So you have stated that all of our basic human needs are met without having to lift a finger.

What I am trying to state, in what appears to be a roundabout way, is that the Canadian government provides one basic human need at no cost, Health Care. As a Canadian citizen, if you want to have your other basic human needs met, you need to work for it. If you need help with it, there are socialized programs in place to help you with it. Socialized programs, not health care. The American system has these same socialized programs in place as well to help out with certain basic human needs, but it conveniently overlooks our need for health care.

American government overlooks, Canadian government provides.


[edit on 8-1-2008 by chissler]

Originally posted by chissler
In your previous posts here, you have made it clear that you believe governments who operate under a socialized health care system also provide food, shelter, etc., at no cost. So you have stated that all of our basic human needs are met without having to lift a finger.

I never stated I thought government DID do this. I didn't mean it to sound that way. I meant to state that food, water and shelter are crucial to a persons health and well-being and as such shouldn't they, couldn't they be covered? Is a persons need for Claritin or Viagra greater than their need for food and water?

What I am trying to state, in what appears to be a roundabout way, is that the Canadian government provides one basic human need at no cost, Health Care.

And food, water, shelter are not necessary for health?

As a Canadian citizen, if you want to have your other basic human needs met, you need to work for it. If you need help with it, there are socialized programs in place to help you with it. Socialized programs, not health care.

Why stop there? If I were in Canada I'd be demanding my food and water and shelter for my health. You could have these basics taken care of without giving up employment and income to become eligible for the assistance programs. I honestly can't believe this hasn't been fought in the courts yet. I guess there just aren't any disingenuous literalist jerks in Canada?
We've got plenty here.

I guess asking you why I do not need food, water and shelter for my health is where I'm making my mistake. I'll direct my question to some ministries of health.

The American system has these same socialized programs in place as well to help out with certain basic human needs, but it conveniently overlooks our need for health care.

I'm guessing you've never been poor in America. They don't pay a dime for their healthcare and it's never denied to them. Not just America's poor but Mexico's poor too.

The only thing overlooked in America is the burden on "The Forgotten Man." A good book check it out.

I'll present this...

A 1.1% difference in unemployment, especially considering the difference in population is HUGE...

As for Cuba, well if it's work or be shot, I would work as well...

Less than 1% difference in unemployment per quarter has caused the President much bad press and liberal slamming. Yet when it is convenient, the Libs "scoff" it off as of no consequence. I guess that's what they mean by twisting statistics.

As for the Homeless shelters and soup kitchens... Ban Analogy...

Soup kitchens and homeless shelters unlike Socialist health care, receives large donations from charitable organizations and people like me that donate and receive tax breaks...

The socialist health care would subsist entirely on tax dollars ripped from people like me that DON'T receive the majority back in April, but have to pay over 27% of every dollar to the IRS already... Add my not expected to receive Social Security and it jumps over 30%....

How much more of my money, MY MONEY, do you want to take from me?

For every one of your "stories" about how wonderful Socialist Health Care is, there are just as many "Stories" of people coming here to get the care they were made to wait for under the Socialist system, so we can dispense with the stories and save time.

The fact is this...

Conservatives believe in helping people to help themselves. A hand UP and not a hand OUT.

Liberals want to have the government take care of everyone and remove self reliance and self initiative.

Socialized Health Care is simply the first step in the redistribution of wealth that is the ultimate Socialist goal.

See, I make too much money, live in too nice a house and own too many vehicles. the Comrades that are supporting these measures want to even things out and punish me for my hard work and success and give some of what I have to some poor soul that has sat around their entire lives and had babies living on welfare.

It's sad that some people have too little. Yes it is.... it is also a fact of life that there will always be those people...

It is also sad when I see a kitten hit by a car on the highway. Do you want to tax cars to pay for vet bills now? Or just take some more of my money for it while your at it.

Socialists.. Sheesh....

Semper

Again, no knee-jerk response here. But the efforts are truly admirable.

Nobody is saying we need to take your house, your vehicle, or any of the small luxuries that you have rightfully earned by busting your own ass day in and day out. The only thing we are saying is that each individual has the right to care when in the time of need. If I'm sick, I deserve treatment. If I'm dying, I deserve help. That's all.

semp, if you have a pay stub near by, I'd like to ask a question.

Without paying into a universal health care program, how much of your pay is deducted each pay? I don't wish to hear a dollar amount, just a percentage. What percent of your pay is taken from you? The last time I looked at my paycheck, I believe anywhere between 25-33% of my pay is deducted. The rest I can have. So for every four hours I work, I might get three of them.

That's a combination of taxes, pension, benefits, union, etc. As an American who doesn't have to pay for the health care of others, I'm interested what percentage of your paycheck you maintain.

Just a thought.

[edit on 8-1-2008 by chissler]

reply to post by semperfortis


I have a question to add to chissler's. How much do the residents of your state pay so that the 'socialized' law enforcement personnel have health care as a benefit?

The only thing we are saying is that each individual has the right to care when in the time of need. If I'm sick, I deserve treatment.

That is just wonderful... A proposition without a solution..... Who will pay for it?

Right

If your sick in the U.S., go to a Hospital, they are REQUIRED BY LAW to treat you regardless of your ability to pay.... That is a FACT....

As far as my check goes, with all of my deductions I take home less than half now....

Several of those deductions are my own choosing however....

The ones I have no choice in equals 37%....And I normally pay the IRS a few thousand at years end.. I refuse to have more taken out until the IRS agrees to pay me interest on my money they hold all year...

Semper

reply to post by Duzey


I pay for my health care, thank you...

We get a discount due to the shear number of officers on the plan, but each and every check I PAY for my health care and my families..

But thanks for asking

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


That must be very expensive. If you don't mind my inquiring further, how much do the benefits cost and are they tax deductible?

So your government deducts more money and doesn't offer you a universal health care? And I have less deductions with a universal health care? And you guys still speak against it? Where is the logic in that?

Are you saying that if I were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow and I went to a hospital for treatment, I would receive adequate treatment without paying a dime? If so, why does anyone pay into any program? Why doesn't everyone just show up to the hospital looking for a hand out?

It is and they are not....

We are lucky, the police, in that we get deductions such as hair cuts and clothing upkeep and such.... but our health care is just like everyone else's....

Plus we don't have a choice to NOT take it, just what plan we choose.... So I guess it's more like Communism and not Socialism as far as the police are concerned...

As for how much, I think we have discussed Semper's finances in enough detail, don't you?

Let's just say it is a good motorcycle payment each month...

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


That's fine, you don't need to send me a paystub. I'm just trying to figure out how much Canadians pay for healthcare vs how much Americans pay.

And to be honest, it looks like Canada is coming out ahead.