The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

Since I have known and spoken with many Germans (family members)and German Jews who were there and they are people of credibility, I have but one thing to add. Your premise is utter nonsense and pure fiction. I suspect you know it is fiction yourself. Either that or you have been brainwashed on this issue by someone else who knows it is fiction.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


When I was at primary school in the early 1970's, we had a teacher who freaked out on the few occasions the fire bell sounded. She became absolutely hysterical and lost all control ... very disturbing for small kids to see and not something easily extinguished from memory. And as the fire bell sounded, two teachers always ran to our classroom to help get this poor woman & us out of the building safely.

She was never affected by the ordinary school bell, only the fire bell. And one day, I'm not entirely sure what happened, staffing problems or some such thing, but the fire bell sounded and these teachers never came to her aid. And we saw that poor woman, a grown woman in her late 50's, huddled in a corner in the classroom screaming & soiling herself. It seemed to last an eternity although was probably only a minute or two. But by that point the kids, me included, had become hysterical too. Parents were contacted and we all had to get sent home.

That woman was a survivor of a death camp. And she freaked when the fire bell sounded because it sounded at the same pitch as a bell she heard at the camp whenever a selection started ... to take inmates away for execution, experimentation or whatever ... those things you probably think never happened.

You seem to think personal testimony is worthless. Of course, she never gave us her testimony ... she didn't need to. Because what we saw that afternoon was worth infinitely more than your turgid, inadequate little post.

It wasn't the Allies who forced folks into slave labour until they dropped dead, or who established a huge organisation of policemen, soldiers, railway workers & civil servants to round up and transport eastwards millions of "undesirables". Nor was it the Allies who opened up those railway trucks and split up families forever in the most distressing circumstances when they made the selection as to who would live, the very few, and who would be gassed and cremated.

And it wasn't the Allies who rang that bell either. It was the Nazis.

I know the Holocaust happened & in the way it's conventionally understood because I saw that woman's reaction myself. But I honestly don't know whether to pity you for your lack of education or to wish upon you what she suffered ... because your opinions are totally outrageous.

I like how all the people of Earth are placed on specific teams and play a game of war every now and then with well defined rules that everyone follows by the book, where the 'teams' are countries and the soldiers are players. The citizens are the cheering fans with deep emotional attachment to their assigned 'team'. Who puts on this spectacle?

There are companies, corporations and individuals out there that have more money and assets than some countries. At what price was the world bought and whose was it to sell?

Wrestling is fake and scripted, just like world politics.


Edit:

To make peace is to get back to farming. If everyone has food, everyone has happiness. Not all food can grow everywhere, start trading it. Trade seeds for use in climate controlled indoor hydroponic setups. I went to Epcot Center last week and took a tour ($14) of their indoor garden. Everyone can grow more food than they would ever need. A community could get rid of their grocery store and use the same building for an indoor farm. They were growing all this stuff in sand or in piping, all using the same 20-20-20 nutrient mix. Work together, not just with each other. Think about it.

Do not have a currency that is worth absolutely nothing and storable forever, it only creates power for the few that horde their wealth (or created the concept, invented debt and printed then distributed the money in the first place). These horders do not share and are not the people to have in charge. The will watch you starve.

[edit on 12/25/2007 by Spoodily]

Originally posted by Niall197
And it wasn't the Allies who rang that bell either. It was the Nazis.

You could discern that from seeing a hysterical woman cowering in a corner too?

I believe the accepted version of the Holocaust, but if you're going to make asinine assumptions like that then I'll kindly take the OP's opinion above yours any day. Check your emotions at the door around here, your story is a sad one but I think it's clouding your judgment. I see this with people who were simply in NY when 9/11 happened and now won't dare look at the skeptics viewpoint because they "saw the planes".

This graph seems to support the OP's claim.

The grandfather of President George Walker Bush (Skull & Bones, 1968) was Prescott Bush (Skull & Bones, 1917), and his great grand father was George Herbert Walker. Prescott Bush and George Herbert (Bert) Walker were directors of the London-affiliated New York banking house of Brown Brothers-Harriman and its various fronts, which funded and directed the military-industrial complex behind Hitler and the Nazi revolution

www.georgewalkerbush.net...

Click here for more information.

Who is "OP" and how does this graph support their point of view?

could someone kindly link me to a post somewhere in this thread where someone is promoting holocaust denial? From the OPs first post, to every reply following it, I haven't noticed anything about holocaust denial, but rather skepticism as to who was really behind the holocaust.

Why are so many people in this thread automatically calling this holocaust denial, and pouring out the sentimental tear-soaked stories?

Originally posted by scientist
could someone kindly link me to a post somewhere in this thread where someone is promoting holocaust denial? From the OPs first post, to every reply following it, I haven't noticed anything about holocaust denial, but rather skepticism as to who was really behind the holocaust.

Why are so many people in this thread automatically calling this holocaust denial, and pouring out the sentimental tear-soaked stories?

Well, what do you call it then?

Did the Holocaust happen?

I think it becomes "denial" when one denies culpability of the Germans in genocide between 1941 to 1945.

What is you're opinion, "scientist?"



[edit on 26/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

reply to post by Nickdfresh


Hehe thanks for the reply

Now I´m not saying that WWII Germany was a fuzzy little pink rabbit, not by a long shot. But however, I´m trying to put across three points.

1.) History IS written by the victors. It´s all around us, and even younger ones as myself can remember a lot of the propaganda being pushed. (Soviet Union, and the *War on Terror*)

2.) Your reply is exactly the type I expected, as it just goes to show you that if you question it, you are automatically labled as either a Hitler wanna-be or a anti-semite.

3.) If Radical Islam takes over the western world, who´s going to stop them from lieng about how *evil* America and the western world is? No one, because they will be in power, and keep you and I in check.

I know you can´t be arrested in America for questioning the holocaust, however where I come from, you can. And in my humble opinion, that´s wrong.

Peace

FK

Many claim the Nazi infastructure was never exterminated that it just "relocated" to America.

Very interesting thread and especially the approach by the OP. As for the holocaust I'm not being a denier ( I have to state this to avoid people feelings being hurt) but I want to take another side of the debate. Honestly I'm sick and tired with this holocaust story and with this victimizing attitude of jewish people. C'mon guys, enough is enough. Almost 65 years are gone by and this thing is history. As it is for 20 million russians who died in the concentration camps of Stalin, or armenian people during Armenian Genocide, or for Kurdish people during Kurdish Genocide by turks ect. Why all this attention about Holocaust? And why nobody talks about what I've mentioned (Armenian, Kurdish, Russians)? Don't forget that Germany is still paying for that Holocaust. Don't forget that the word holocaust has taken very deep roots in our consciousness and social life. Did anybody ever asked WHY? Why jewish people and why not the other nationalities that even nowdays are going through a horrible genocide? Isn't enough that in the name of that Holocaust we today have e state and country called Izrael, in a land that belonged to Palestina? But is anyone talking about palestinian and all the injustices done to them?

Honestly I 'hate' when people jumps in your throat the very first moment one stars expressing his doubt about Holocaust. It's like a mighty power doesn't wan't anybody to mention the opposite of what they proclaimed all this long years. People are being charged and brought to trial for saying that the numbers are to exaggerated or that maybe the whole holocaust story per say might have been an attempt to help jewish people to finally have a country. At this point I don't know which one is the truth and how deep the rabbit whole goes for that matter. All what I can think off in this moment is the trial of Ernst Zundel and the irony of the system I've felt in my veins. One can ignore and is allowed not to give a **it about all other nations in the world ( in terms of genocide) but watch your mouth when is about jewish. So what? What makes them so special and why are we being educated with this double standard?

65 years are almost gone and we're still dealing with the holocaust. How many more years will come to pass till this story is over and 'forgoten' ? Are we just being taught a lesson about a page of recent human history or is a plot to implement a jewish agenda?

I don't know the answer and I don't look for it because I know allready that I won't be allowed but at this point I have the right to have my doubts considering the facts and the double standard. All I want is to be free in thinking and expressing my self as I feel. And if I have the conviction that holocaust didn't happen in the magnitude that has always been said to us, then I want to have the freedom and right to scream that out loud. Maybe this is what the OP is trying to say in this message. Maybe is the moment we should start thinking as individual and not as masses...

Originally posted by IvanZana

With over 20 million Russian Civilians, and over 20 million Chinese civilians killed ww2, why is it the jews are considered the biggest victims of ww2?

Anyway, they had top notch intelligence and sat recon pictures of concentration camps.

By "Sat recon pictures", (just to be clear,) do you mean "satellite reconnaissance pictures".???

I may be wrong, but I don't think that satellites were even an idea in anyones mind at that time.


It was interesting reading up to that point, but after seeing that, I just can't read any further with a serious mind.

So what if they didn't know?

That comment doesn't really help your argument either IMO. It seems to say to me that you already have your mind set either way and there is no reason to even try to discuss the issue with you so I won't.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Maybe it will be more clear if I give you the legal definition of the word fact:

actual course of events: the circumstances of an event or state of affairs, rather than an interpretation of its significance

Ok, I saw this and needed to step in and put my 5 cents in. Lets keep this in perspective with your opening posts, now shall we? Your first 4 posts are all a hypothetical situation. This, by your own admission, is being used to outline how you think the events in Germany unfolded. How can this be described as "the actual course of events", when it's hypothetical?

Tell me, did the Allied forces play any part in the death of internees? Did the allied forces manipulate the actual course of events inside the concentration camps by halting the food, medicine, clothing, etc.. that was to be delivered? This is the right question.

Well, yes they did, but indirectly. But these aren't the only questions to ask when we discuss this issue. We need to also answer the other obvious questions that must be tied into this. Some of these questions are:

Why were the labor camps there in the first place?

Why were gas chambers located on location at these camps, if not for the explicit purpose of killing the internees?

If we can answer these questions, and the ones posed by history, then maybe we could better understand what really did happen.

TheBorg

No one is arguing who was the biggest victim of WW2, we are debating who perpetrated the holocaust.

No doubt the Soviets lost a lot of people, but I can't see what that has to do with who did the real holocaust.

Originally posted by BrokenVisage
You could discern that from seeing a hysterical woman cowering in a corner too?

Thats a really crass statement.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason she did it was explained afterwards?

I believe the accepted version of the Holocaust, but if you're going to make asinine assumptions like that then I'll kindly take the OP's opinion above yours any day. Check your emotions at the door around here, your story is a sad one but I think it's clouding your judgment.

I'd say the systematic purposeful extermination of between 5/6 million people by racial supremacists is an emotional subject. Wouldn't you?

I see this with people who were simply in NY when 9/11 happened and now won't dare look at the skeptics viewpoint because they "saw the planes".

I would respectfully suggest you have your priorities wrong if you want to equate the personal experiences of someone who was in a death camp and likely suffering from post traumatic stress disorder with your views on 9/11.

The OP's thoughts and thread directly relate to a submission that I did on another thread a while ago. My contribution was a great little documentary about this very issue with the Jews and their influences. It was very unbiased and the director collected excellent data and interviews from both sides. It basically stated that in their own Jewish census books that they keep meticulous records of Jews around the world, only about 350K Jews died during those years. And most of them were recorded as being very sick, aged, etc..

Another documentary was actually done by a young Jewish son of a Holocaust survivor and he wanted to find out what really happened and he also discovered similar facts as the other doco. That young Jew found that the main gas chamber had a huge glass window that was not reinforced by steel mesh and was still the original from the 40's. If they were being killed it would've been easy to smash through that huge thin glass window and open the door. He also discovered from the accurate records of the camp, construction and supplies of that site that most of the chimneys in that gas chamber were actually built many years after the war. (his findings)

There were also high ranking Jewish rabbis that were sick of the concerted effort to keep the holocaust in everyone's mind and on their lips. He stated that they keep cranking out nazi camp movies at least several times for every 10 years to keep it fresh in everyone's mind. And they want to keep the atmosphere of this issue to make everyone always feeling guilty and if questioned, they will automatically feel like an anti-semite.

These were excellent doco's done by fellow jews that just wanted to find the real truth. Most of them were threatened severely by their local Jewish orders and are feeling the financial backlash for such findings.

Not sure how to find my old post but I gave the name of the doco. Very interesting and all plausible.

Just my .00000000000000000000002 cents..

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
They had top notch intelligence and sat recon pictures of concentration camps. They knew where the trains were and where they were heading. It shouldn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out the possible routes of trains.

These railroads were also used to transport Jews and other minorities like cattle to the camps. Resistance also destroy these railroads to prevent the Germans from transporting more people to the camps.

The question that does come to mind is why does Israel have such a big influence on the US. I would not be suprised if there is a world war II related secret that the US does not want to get exposed.

reply to post by TheBorg


Agreed. I was immediately struck by the fact that the OP's "proof" is, in fact, disputable. I am also bothered by the fact that the OP rants about "individual perception" when the multiple opening posts are, for the most part, his or her interpretation of a small cross-section of select data.

Further, when I see the word "indisputable" followed by an exclamation point, I frankly expect the thread to live up to its advertisement (and this particular thread does not live up to its claims). If the OP had the proverbial nail in the coffin on this issue, then we wouldn't still be arguing about it five pages later, would we?

I am alarmed that the OP appears to suggest that primary sources are useless and that rhetoric serves as sufficient proof. You can't just splice together some data, some photos, and some opinions and call it indisputable fact. (Well, for all your hair-splitters out there, technically you can, but that doesn't make your claims true.) That the OP actually had the audacity to later define the word "fact" is infuriating to say the least.

I mean... Let's be honest here. The OP has disclosed nothing particularly new, very few things that are actually factual, and the topic is as divisive as ever. The OP also cites no sources that we might use to verify the claims presented. The OP is unwilling to take holocaust survivors at their word, but we should take the OP at his or her word? Or the word of some mysterious, unidentified, unverifiable source? The hypocrisy and the irony are astounding.

The OP made claims of proof and instead gave us mostly speculation (after claiming that no speculation would appear). This is, as far as I am concerned, unacceptable. Back up your claims, or don't bother making them at all. It is my opinion that the OP is operating in bad faith, as Sartre would say. I would've responded to this thread in a very different way had the title actually been "The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies -- Disputable, speculative allegations follow." The alarming amount of threads on ATS with topics designed to provoke users into reading them, but which never deliver on their promises is wearing thin on me. I count this thread among them.


/tn.