The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

Hitler's bellicosity was driven by fear. Fear of things to come. Fear of many of the problems we face today. He saw that the world was becoming a very crowded place. After the Great War, the German people were pushed to the back of all lines. It is not surprising that the once proud but lowly Corporal would become filled with hate at the degradation of the German people. And fear. Fear that the harshness of the post WWI era was a permanent plight for the German people. Fear that they would always be the last to partake of the world's resources. Fear that they would be the first to be denied those resources when they became scarce. Fear that his people would be driven into extinction when the world's resources were expended. This is why he acted against the Jews. I don't think it was a hatred of the Jews in particular that drove him. It was a hatred of all non-Aryans. He believed that there was simply no room left in the world for anyone but the Aryans. Kill or be killed I suppose you could summarize the plot. It is quite logical actually. Not the ravings of a lunatic. Hitler was no idiot. I don't agree with exterminating humans, because I think there are other methods for dealing with the burdens of overpopulation, but I am not driven by fear either. Hitler was driven by fear. Fears that he shared with his people. Fear that he used as a weapon.

Directly on the topic... No, the Allied forces are not directly responsible for the Holocaust. Hitler himself along with his top officials relented that they had been so quick to exterminate people who could have been used for slave labor later in the war, as it turned out of their favor.

There were indeed conspirators outside of Germany who knowingly cooperated with the Nazi regime and were directly complicit in the events, but this was not part of an overall Allied strategy at the time. Since then however, those conspirators who acted outside of the law and colluded with the enemy have reaped grand rewards and have escaped responsibility for their collaboration. For more on that, you can research everything from Operation Paperclip, to the Bush family history. There are other big name conspirators who collaborated with the Nazis who remain the driving forces in world affairs.









[edit on 12/30/0707 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 12/31/0707 by jackinthebox]

I've been to Oswiencim, it is the death camp that was created next to Auschwitz. You make a good argument but the simple layout of oswiencim makes it obvious it was designed to kill people. The trees are planted all round in a very specific order so as to block any view of the camp. The gas chambers are mostly intact and the ovens for the bodies are still there. I saw them and I walked through them.

The train came into camp and anyone young and able to do work was separated off and the rest were sent to the gas chamber (showers).

Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
reply to post by mig12

 

C'mon man. You can't expect us to believe the allies KNEW where the supplies were headed.

So, this is where the line is drawn? Whether they KNEW or not? Anyway, they had top notch intelligence and sat recon pictures of concentration camps. They knew where the trains were and where they were heading. It shouldn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out the possible routes of trains.

So what if they didn't know? If they did know, you'd just hear the excuse that every scmuck gives, "Oh, uh, I didn't know!" Would they want to world to know that they accidently helped cause the deaths of all those people by cutting of food and medical supplies to millions? or would they smear it?

It's simply a matter of logistics. The major bulk transportation of supplies were bombed or taken by the allied forces. What little supplies did get into the camps were OF COURSE given to the German Military.

What about places like Sobibór?

What about places like that? There is no irrefutable proof that Jews were killed there. It was destroyed in early 1940, and for good reason.

So, this is where the line is drawn? Whether they KNEW or not? Anyway, they had top notch intelligence and sat recon pictures of concentration camps. They knew where the trains were and where they were heading.


How did they have "satellite recon pictures"? Sputnik, the first satellite wasn't launched until 1957...

(sorry about the last one, pretty bad internet reception where I am...)

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Labor camps to support the war machine and coorporations such as I.B Farben. Many dissinters were sent to other camps, others to Ghettos. It was forced laber, and I'm not denying mistreatment in that context, but we need to view this from a historical perspective. There is a complexity to the Holocaust which has been around for almost 70 years, and we should not try to grasp at it from any emotional or moral viewpoint, as it renders the facts increasingly elusive and transparent.

I do agree with you that we cannot take everything at face value due to many different political influences involved. And honestly I rate the Nazis third behind Russia at No. 1 and Japan at No 2 as to who was the vilest in their actions. I would even put America at No 4th position in all this too.

But we are talking only about the Jews that the Germans had control over for the majority of the war. When you step back and look at the total picture you can only say that something went horribly wrong. Debating on whether it was 6 million or 3 million killed, or how they died are smaller aspects of the overall evil that took place on a national level.

Something went horribly wrong my friend and a lot of Jews, Poles, Russian, and undesirables died because of it. And not only this but millions more might as well died too for their lives were ruined as ruined as one could get and not die from it.

This is when you step back and not debate on whether there was blue residue on the walls, but look at the whole picture of millions in camps and ghettos left to die. While 500k to millions more were worked to death. Where 1000s and 1000s were experimented on and then uncountable atrocities at the lower single or family level all starting in 1934.

If the Jews went to war against German then that war was over in 1939 for at that point they had lost everything. They had no money, property, freedom, rights, jobs, businesses etc. they had nothing left to fight their economic war with anymore. The only next step was to banish them ALL to Poland ghettos.

At this point they totally relied on the state for everything, and with the extreme living conditions from day one in the ghettos that lead to the high mortality rate it is obvious that Germany failed them on a criminal level, and it really doesn’t matter why as to whether if it was caused by the Allies bombing or if it was planned at the highest levels to do it that way from the beginning.

As one continues to step back and look at the whole picture the Nazis progressed from taking everything away from them to imprisoning them by the millions and then finally they trided to annihilate them all. This is all a very logical and progressive ladder that we have here.

This was not just a Jewish event either so the fact that the Germans did like atrocities on the Poles and Russians just strengthens the theory that this was a very scary failure of morality nationwide. Once again I can’t say it was the worst when we also have Russia and Japan in the mix.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
The fact that it is illegal to question, or re-investigate in 13 countries, that it is a hate crime to deny it in many others, and is being pushed by the UN to be a total world-wide crime should make any thinking person realize that there is a coverup, a concealment of data, and probably a conspiracy.

A "hate crime"?. Because one questions HOW the Jews in the camps died? It doesn't make sense.
I hope they don't bring in laws that state we all must believe the Pyramids were built by slaves using rollers, and speaking against Darwinism is to become a felony.

Originally posted by FredT
If so I think you hit the nail right on the head! I have seen some revisionist history in my time, but this one takes the cake for sure.

Honestly I think the OP just started off poorly in how he presented his Hypothesis , but what I think he wanted to do all along was to present a completely different scenario (outside the box so to speak) so that it would cause people to reevaluate the status quo as to what the holocaust was all about.

The reason I say he started poorly is because he argued more than debated and he didn’t allow the debate to head in any direction even if it meant one that he might disagree with, and because of this he has been on the defensive that has led to the fallacy that you quoted.

I truly do not think he actually feels his hypothesis is true, but I do think he feels there were a lot of influences involved in the final picture painted of the holocaust that might not be the most credible.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


yes david cole has now restracted his statements about the holocaust because he was beat up,and had his life threatened this is what happens when u question the holocaust,also there has been tests done on the bodies of dead jews and there is no evidence whatsoever that any of them died by any gas,www.youtube.com... here u caN watch some david cole videos on youtube,watch them before they are removed,www.mininova.org... this a link to the donahue show with david cole and bradley smith where david shows the videos of inside the gas chambers,to download it u need a bittorrent program u then download the torrent at the above link and then open it in the bittorrent client,i use utorrent. www.ihraudio.dreamhost.com... and best of all copy paste this mp3 link into your download manager its pretty amazing,Ted O'Keefe and Mark Weber were scheduled for a live in-studio debate with Aaron Breitbart, senior researcher from the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center. Breitbart chickened out at the last minute, so for over 2 hours — from 7:30 PM until 10:00 PM — on the evening of December 17, 1990, roughly a million KFI listeners from as far away as Oregon and Texas got an unforgettable dose of history in accord with the facts. This is probably the most effective case for Holocaust revisionism ever carried over the airwaves.

listen to this then leave your feedback

www.youtube.com...

also here is a link to david cole interviewing ernst zundel standing outside the swimming pool at auchwitz

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Hitler's racism was not formed as a direct cause of Jews existing. His racism has a strong correlation to the Jew because of the effect they had on Germany, it's economy at it's civil population.

Hmm "The Jew". Interesting choice of phrasing there. Used in a lot of Hitlers speeches on the subject, but also used unerringly in the National Socialist Propaganda.

The correct terminology is, of course, The Jewish People, but as we're dealing the land of Luido Von Guist and Josef Goebbels - two people who were very good with language and knew very well that the dehumanisation of a group of people is best served by applying a collective common label that allows the reader to produce a stereotype in their mind I could see why you choose to use it. Still, its 2008 and not 1939, and I'd like to think we are more socially advanced, so excuse me if I refer to "Jewish People", because thats what they are.

As for the effect the Jewish People had on Germany's economy, lets look at the facts.

I think you'll find that the whole world suffered economic depression after World War 1, but Germany was also tasked to pay reparations for WW1 by the treaty of Versailles, which led to hyperinflation in 1923. More pressure was piled on after the Wall Street Crash in 1929 as America was then lending an awful lot of money to German businesses, corporations and financial institutions. America was essentially bankrupt and gave a 90 day repayment period to the German Government for all the relevant loans, which led to a huge rise in unemployment in the country.

Now quite how you factor the jewish population into that is beyond me. They were not responsible for the Treaty of Versailles, or the Wall Street Crash, and therefore most certainly not responsible for the state of the German economy.

I do contend that if Japanese people caused the same effect as the Jews, then he would be labeled as a Japanese racist. In this way, the Nazi party were not racial supremacist murderers, but merely protecting the homeland from an unwanted effect while that protection had a strong correlation with what a certain race - whatever race, or species - would have caused.

But when you look at the facts, and the global economy at the time, as I've set out above, this argument becomes irrelevant. What happens is, instead of facing up to the facts of the matter, a scapegoat is found, which leads you to...

This is why race was not the real issue in essence, but was merely a label placed upon an undesired effect. In this case, that label was placed upon a specific race. This was Hitler's method to gain public support for driving out those Jews who had powerful influence on the German economy and society.

Which then becomes racism, exactly because a single element is hounded and persecuted for the failings of others.

It worked better than he had intended and the power of the label revved the societal engine of Jewish persecution harder than thought possible - and so he was left with no choice but to round up Jewish people and have them placed in labor camps for their protection.

"Placed in labour camps for their protection". Why labour camps? Why not just make it perfectly clear that violence aginst people on racial grounds was unacceptable and enforce the law?

This is where you have to look at the teachings of Adolf Lanz, and Guido Von List, and their effects on Hitler. I've noticed you ignoring my posts with references to Von List. You do know who he is and what he preached, don't you?

I'm sure you will confuse the above as racism: it is not. By the simple fact that race has a strong correlation to the cause, it is often confused by the majority. I also contend that if aliens from another planet were have undesireable effects on any country, that they would be banished, exiled, persecuted, and whatnot. The race/species aspect only enters into the picture when you ignore the cause and so the concept that all life is sacred.

Ah but it is racism. Without a shadow of a doubt, because it singled people out on the basis of genetic difference and nothing more.

Also, his belief of the creation of a superior race had little to do with racism, but with Eugenics. Insomuch as he was attempting to speed up natural evolution - as learned from Darwin - he was acting rational.

So this dark haired poorly educated Austrian - a picture child for racial superiority - wanted to dabble in eugenics. Its a pity he wasn't a poster child for it, isn't it? When you look at his actual historical background, it turns out that he wasn't acting rationally. He was living out a fantasy in his own mind.

Where else in history does this confusion of correlation and causation come into play? The other great big racial story - slavery. We are led to believe that slavery was the cause of the civil war, when it was only correlated with it. The direct cause is, of course, state's rights.

The direct cause of slavery is ignorance, and a fostered belief that some people are inferior to others, either because they have opposing beliefs in terms of politics and religion, or because of their racial background.

When we want to cover something up, we place emphesis on the strongest correlating factor in order to hide the cause in plain sight...

Yes. I agree. Its an interesting phrase you used there. Thats why you use terms such as "labour camps", "swimming pools", "de-lousing chambers" and "for their own protection" - because that way it appears to be reasonable when its anything but. Propaganda is a fine art, but when you boil it down to base terms and challenge it, it falls apart, because what it actually means in this case is "forced movement" "gas chambers" and "final solution"

reply to post by neformore


You have a talent for regurgitation, I'll give you that. You still seem incapable of getting a simple point though.

I'll post Plato's allegory of a cave next so you can tell me how the facts tell us that we are not really prisoners in a cave, and we can't possibly be chained to a wall.

What would you prefer I call the Jews? We call Christians such, and Muslims, also Jews, Blacks, Whites, the Chinese, the Asian, The American, the Japanese..

All you are doing is revealing that you are placing The Jew on a pedestal, you you even devoted your longest paragraph to emphesize that.

and therefore most certainly not responsible for the state of the German economy.

This is great reasoning due to the fact that the Jews placed an economic boycott on German goods as Hitler came to power.

Sorry, but everything is you said was utter babble and not worth responding to. You have a talent for filling up a post with inane declarations and opinion.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You have a talent for filling up a post with inane declarations and opinion.

You have a talent for initiating topics that bring out some of the worst rhetoric and skirt unsavory issues. All participants in this thread should be advised that staff is keeping a close eye on this and related threads.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Sorry, but everything is you said was utter babble and not worth responding to. You have a talent for filling up a post with inane declarations and opinion.

Thanks

I do wonder how you classify your posts? Do you not make declarations and express your own opinions?

If so, what - in a civilised debate on an open forum - is wrong with me expressing mine?

But still, you attacked the messenger and not the message this time, which tells me alot.

If you can answer the points I have raised in a logical, sensible manner, then please do.

If you wish to ignore the history surrounding the holocaust, and Hitlers own personal history, and the formation and policies of the National Socialist movement in Germany for the 7 years prior to WW2 when Hitler became chancellor then I would say that your statements on the issue are uninformed, ill conceived and do not put the subject matter you wish to discuss in proper context.

Context in this issue is everything, because you hypothesize that the Allies were responsible for the Holocaust. Up until Hitler invaded Poland the Allied actions were not an issue within Germany.

How, therefore, do you explain the discrepancy in the actions prior to the war, with your assertions that the allies were responsible when so much of the legal and social framework that directly enabled the machinations of the holocaust was put into place in the country before war broke out?

Absolute and utter BS.
Why can't people just understand that there is true evil in the world and
it's not always us....

If people spent a little more time in reality and less in la-la-land, maybe some of the worlds real issues could get solved.

No way dude. The allies didn't create the holocaust.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


Wow. Not sure how I missed this post. Unbelievable.

So:

I have to protect the source of this information.

Is your source the aliens that you have met with and traveled in their ship or is it a human source?

I'm going to try to pull out what i guess is the main question this fellow is asking here, which is what was the affect of Allied bombing on the Holocaust. Yeah, I'm giving him or her a lot of space here, but lets say for a second that's what he or she is trying to get across, however poorly.
That's actually a good question, I'm not sure. It didn't help I'm sure, but for the most part, the Allies weren't even sure of the Holocaust until the Germans were actually retreating. So any purposeful actions are doubtful.
I know three soldiers from WWII that talked about it one time. Oddly enough, it was while I was a lifeguard at the YMCA. One fellow was American, the second was Russian (Never could understand a word that fellow said) and the last fellow was Japanese, (He had later moved here from Japan after the war).
They got along great and were always talking about the war. They joked about everything just about. Both the Russian soldier and the American soldier had been through the camps at the end of the war. They never once joked about it, never even tried to make light of it. Anytime they brought it up they'd drop it immediately afterwards.
Both old fellows were angry (to put it mildly) that anyone would question the events, though i can understand.
Like any great event, it goes down easier if there was some sort of conspiracy to make it seem better in our eyes, heck, the numbers alone are staggering, most people can't even really comprehend those numbers, so to them someones has to be faking.
I can understand that, that sort of thinking is everywhere, and it always will be, and it'll get stronger the farther we move away from the events themselves.
Me personally, I have trouble with theses ideas, mainly because of the amount of people who did die, and the fact that people want to claim otherwise despite hard proof to the contrary. People here are defacing monuments to the people who have died and are missing in combat. It doesn't just anger me.

But hey, I'll still give you some slack, OP if you start answering the questions instead of avoiding them.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You have a talent for filling up a post with inane declarations and opinion.

You have a talent for initiating topics that bring out some of the worst rhetoric and skirt unsavory issues.

ah so the ugly elephant in the room appears again from the shadows.

I would love to see a list of these "unsavory issues"

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You have a talent for filling up a post with inane declarations and opinion.

You have a talent for initiating topics that bring out some of the worst rhetoric and skirt unsavory issues.

ah so the ugly elephant in the room appears again from the shadows.

I would love to see a list of these "unsavory issues"

I think for starters, trying to revise history to trivialize, minimize, or shift the blame of one of the most horrific episodes in human history. As a student of history, I find it disgusting when people try to politicize or revise history to fit their agendas. We're doomed to repeat history if we can't learn from it, but revisionists will never learn because they just change it for their own purposes. Making claims like there was satellite imagery available, shows the OP's lack of historical knowledge. Of course they teach a similar curriculum in Madrassas.

I just read this thread, and for the first time since I joined ATS I feel physically ill. I haven't been more disgusted by a thread.... ever. I'm too angry to even think right now. When I collect my thoughts I'll probably return.... if I haven't repressed all memory of this by then.