FLIGHT 93 - The Biggest 911 Smoking Gun!

reply to post by CaptainObvious


I have taken one off topic plane and posted that as to why commercial aircraft require a reconstruction. I am not moving on to another off topic physically real aircraft. Prove alleged Flight 93 ever existed as touted by the "official" reports. You believe you have done that. However, you have failed to do that since your first initial post in this discussion.

reply to post by apex


University educated people normally are not prone to twist the words of their opponents, while believing that logical fallacy wins them any debates. Anyone with a merited 2.0 gpa normally has more logical reasoning capability than that. Unless, of course, they are dedicated to dirty tricks to self-serve themselves.

Originally posted by IvanZana
When I read your reply, i had to read it twice for i thought you must of been joking or atleast sarcastic but I am easily convinced now that your either misinfomed , scared of the truth or carry a personal grudge against 9/11 Truthers as you see them in the likeness of Squeegee kids or all of the above.

Captain Obvious in Quotation

Think of this - strike a match and quickly pass your finger through it. Did you get burned? No. Try the same thing with a piece of paper. Or grass.

Put your finger in alcohol or jet fuel then pass it through some flame, and dont bother telling how us much it hurt and burned you.

Are you aware that your trying to compare how a 600Mph, fully fueled comercial airplane crashing into the ground at over 600Mp/h at a 45 degree angle leaving a crater no longer than a full-size chevy car....
with a childhood experience playing with matches?

Do you think ATS members are so naive?

The fuel blew AWAY from where the photog was standing at impact, towards the trees. Remember the 40 degree impact angle? It was angled towards the trees. That's why the grass and trees on that side were burnt in that direction. Simple for most to understand that.

Now your reaching Are you making these theories up as you go along.

"The fuel Blew Away" - Like all your credibility and respect.

As far as your impact crater claim, wrong again. The crater direction and explosion damage on the upper parts of the trees, DO NOT LINE UP with the "official" direction of the plane.

Show some evidence, diagrams , graphs, anything other than just saying so. I wont be expecting anything new, convincing or even realistic. Ive seen it all.

The grass is not untouched. That's what you believe. I do not. Therefore, from my point of view, your q is invalid.

But you also believe that planes "atomize", jet fuel "blows away" , planes "vanish", people who question authority are "nutty" "stupid" "ignorant" so what you believe is just that.

The wings shattered into small pieces upon impact. Only small scattered pieces remained. Or are you suggesting that one would find intact wings?

Of course not. We expect to see a plane crash and we dont.
You have failed to prove one did as we all proved one didn't .

Remember, you shouldn't have to convince anyone that a massive commercial airliner crashed, those are usually self explanatory

Why are you trying so hard to?

The fuel was atomized and formed the fireball, some spread into the trees, catching them on fire.

The pictures ( the high quality ones) show no fire in the forest at all, no burnt grass , bark, etc.(pictures earlier in the thread proves these).

Lack of fire? Did I mention the trees? Do you see them in YOUR photos?

Yes, as it has been discussed and agreed upon that the tree damage was consistant with a high velocity explosion and not a plane crash fuel fire for the grass between the crater all way through to the end of the burn zone. No grass, bark, or branch was BURNED by jet fuel around the the crash site anywhere.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am happy you(s) finally answered.

Congratulations. You officially destroyed the official account for anyone trying to understand Shanksville/ Flight 93 by trying so manically to uphold it.

Your imaginative twisting of facts rivals that of Arlan Specter's Magic Bullet in the Warren Report. We all know why the impossible magic bullet was invented. You invent theories on how a Boeing 757 and all its fuel 'Atomized' and"de-materialized" on impact without burning any surrounding grass around the small 10x30ft hole, when there has been not one shred of evidence from the crash investigation to support it, and in fact, actual photos of the crash site disprove you.


This thread and my message has reached exactly who i wanted it to.

As your Boss once said on a carrier years ago....

"Mission Accomplished"



CONCLUSION: No Boeing 757 crashed in Shanksville on September 11th,2001.
The pseudo crash site was to be used in the terror drill exercises. Some of the exercises included crashing a plane into the Pentagon and the WTC, some of the simulated a terrorist plane crash complete with bodies, ground pigs meat ( to act as body parts), plane parts, raging fire.

Check out this airplane crash..



Just a simulation, not real. That is just like the plane crash exercise at Shanksville on September 11th, 2001.



[edit on 8-1-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by Freaky_Animal


This is what the FAA does, at the behest of airline conglomerates, when airline crashes take place, particular if the pilot dies. They lie and call it "pilot error" when it is not. No one will be the wiser, because all employees, who know better, will go along or lose their jobs. Or their consciences will not let them rest until they whistle blow and lose their jobs and become falsely maligned. Or rationalize their way through it with years of psychoanalytical therapy whether they voluntarily quit or not.

The airline will blame pilot error. Thereby, falsely alleviating themselves, from liability directly due to lack of proper service and maintenance on their airline fleet.

One of the unsafest commercial airline procedures, which that took place back in the 1980s, was deregulation of airlines by the Reagan administration.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Be that as it may, normality was suspended between the hours of 8:46 and 10:03 am on 9/11/2001, and resumed at 10:03:01 on 9/11/2001. I am not joking about that. It is blatantly reflected in all the "official" reports the Bush administration allowed to be published, in order to be called "official".

reply to post by CaptainObvious


Listen to yourself. Read what you write. You were the one going off topic, and then unjustly telling someone else to stay on topic, when responding to an off-topic subject you started.

You tangled yourself in a mess. Pointing the finger in another direction is not going to change that for you.

reply to post by OrionStars

Prove alleged Flight 93 ever existed as touted by the "official" reports.

Easy enough. I'll even use your source.

en.wikipedia.org... Eastern Airlines Flight 401. Your source.

en.wikipedia.org... United Airlines Flight 93. Your source again.

I have proven that Flight 93 existed using a source that you consider valid.

By the way, your link mentions nothing of illegal parts or the FAA being interested in those illegal parts. Unless you're talking about the oven that everyone reported seeing the ghost of the dead Captain and Flight Engineer in.

reply to post by OrionStars


Orion,

As you continue to spin and twist and move the goal posts... I will ask you one question....

What about the phone calls that were made from the seat backs?

I would like you to explain in detail how the government was able to fake phone calls to the passengers loved ones.

Again, I highly doubt you will respond to this post in the manner in which i requested. Pretty much like EVERY other post.

Since you ignore the abundance of evidence that has been shown to you calling it hearsay, you can not dismiss the phone calls. (including the 911 call from the rear restroom)

Thank you,

C.O.

Please see complete post below

[edit on 8-1-2008 by CaptainObvious]

reply to post by Boone 870


I know 401 existed. That was proved long ago, as was the illegal lifting of 401's crashed aircraft parts, while illegally placing them in another plane. Did you bother reading about that flight? Any history at all? 401 actually had live passengers rescued to confirm there really was a Flight 401 and they were on it.

But wiki does not prove alleged Flight 93 even existed much less crashed around Shanksville, PA.

What is you relevant point? You did not say.

reply to post by CaptainObvious


Since you are the one so gung ho on insisting phone calls were made, which your accounting presented adds to already mass confusion - calls made at 0 altitude which means ground level - why don't you prove how that was possible, if alleged Flight 93 was supposed to always be in the air between alleged take-off/crash landing?

Your side's evidence is ruining your own case. Until you can straight out your own problems, it is wisdom not to tell anyone else to prove anything to you. What you are telling me to do is prove your case for you, and I am not doing that.

I would like to offer this list to any who would like to tackle it. Please refute any of the 10 points below with sold evidence.

Flight 93: Evidence Summary: 10 Points

1) The four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.

2) Several passengers and crew called from the plane, spoke with loved ones, described the hijackers' attack, and related their plan to try to retake the plane so that it would not be used as a suicide weapon against a populated area. All but two of these calls were made using the planes' Airfones.


I ask that if you read but one thing in this post...make it this one:

Transcript of Tom’s last calls to Deena

6:54 a.m. Fourth cell phone call to Tom to Deena

Deena: Tom?
Tom: Hi. Anything new?
Deena: No
Tom: Where are the kids?
Deena: They’re fine. They’re sitting at the table having breakfast. They’re asking to talk to you.
Tom: Tell them I’ll talk to them later
Deena: I called your parents. They know your plane has been hijacked.
Tom: Oh…you shouldn’t have worried them. How are they doing?
Deena: They’re O.K.. Mary and Martha are with them.
Tom: Good. (a long quiet pause) We’re waiting until we’re over a rural area. We’re going to take back the airplane.
Deena: No! Sit down, be still, be quiet, and don’t draw attention to yourself! (The exact words taught to me by Delta Airlines Flight Attendant Training).
Tom: Deena! If they’re going to crash this plane into the ground, we’re going to have do something!
Deena: What about the authorities?
Tom: We can’t wait for the authorities. I don’t know what they could do anyway.
It’s up to us. I think we can do it.
Deena: What do you want me to do?
Tom: Pray, Deena, just pray.
Deena: (after a long pause) I love you.
Tom: Don’t worry, we’re going to do something.
He hung up

www.tomburnettfamilyfoundation.org...


Here is a couple Interviews with Lisa Jefferson:

'I Promised I Wouldn't Hang Up'
Lisa Jefferson, the phone supervisor who took Todd Beamer's call on Flight 93, believes God called her for a purpose.
Interview by Wendy Schuman

www.beliefnet.com...

Operator can't forget haunting cries from Flight 93
By WES SMITH, The Orlando Sentinel
Lisa D. Jefferson cannot silence the haunting cries, "the hollering and the screaming" that were the anguished background to her 13-minute conversation with United Flight 93 passenger Todd Beamer before the hijacked plane crashed in rural Pennsylvania.

archive.southcoasttoday.com...

Dispatcher honored for Flight 93 efforts:

The Westmoreland County 911 dispatcher who took a cell phone call from a frantic passenger aboard hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 says he was just doing his job when he tried to calm the man and obtain more information about what was happening aboard the jetliner.

www.post-gazette.com...

John Shaw: Received a call from Flight 93
Wednesday, September 11, 2002
John Shaw still has dreams about the phone call he answered while working as a 911 dispatcher in Westmoreland County last Sept. 11.

www.post-gazette.com...

3) The cockpit voice recorder recorded the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant. Air traffic controllers heard a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board. Passengers reported that one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to him.

Please see evidence presented at the Moussaoui trial exhibits and documents.
www.rcfp.org...

4) After learning about the other attacks, passengers and cabin crew attempted to retake the cockpit but were apparently unable to gain entry. The sound of their attempts was recorded on the CVR. The CVR also recorded the hijackers' decision to end the flight, followed by repeated shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed. Families of victims heard the CVR recording.

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...



5) Flight 93 was tracked by radar until it went down.



6) Many people in Pennsylvania saw the Boeing 757, traveling at low altitude and high speed, roll to the right and plummet upside-down, nose first, towards the ground. Many people witnessed the subsequent enormous explosion and fireball. Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.



7) Hundreds of first responders (mostly volunteer firefighters) and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. They saw human remains, aircraft wreckage, personal effects, jet fuel, etc.
The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were recovered and had usable data, all of which is consistent with the other evidence.

AFTER THE ATTACKS: THE PENNSYLVANIA CRASH; Searchers Find Plane Cockpit Voice Recorder

query.nytimes.com...


Graphed FLight Data Recording:

www.gwu.edu...

8) The remains of every victim was positively identified. Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller personally collected many remains and made 12 identifications through fingerprints and dental records. Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.

Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.

www.washingtonpost.com...¬Found=true

9) Hijacker identification documents and personal effects were recovered, along with the remains of four people identified as the hijackers through the process of elimination.



10) Nearly all of the aircraft was recovered by professional investigators and by civilians. The debris was returned to United Airlines after being examined for evidence of explosives use.





For those interested in reading Mark Roberts detailed research into the events of 911. Please click here

reply to post by CaptainObvious


A plane cannot be grounded and be in the air at the same time.

7 falsely alleged hijackers were found alive overseas on 9/12/2001. Confirmed by the FBI and BBC. People cannot be dead and alive at the same time.

We already did a smashing job of proving alleged Flight 93 did not existed at Shanksville, PA. Our first irrefutable source of substantiation was the laws of nature.

Anything else you need refuted from what you presented?

Originally posted by OrionStars


Since you are the one so gung ho on insisting phone calls were made, which your accounting presented adds to already mass confusion - calls made at 0 altitude which means ground level - why don't you prove how that was possible, if alleged Flight 93 was supposed to always be in the air between alleged take-off/crash landing?

Your side's evidence is ruining your own case. Until you can straight out your own problems, it is wisdom not to tell anyone else to prove anything to you. What you are telling me to do is prove your case for you, and I am not doing that.

I am not asking you to prove my facts. I already have. The calls at zero altitude were NOT made at zero altitude and you know it. Why are you ignoring my posts? It was explained WHY the calls were connected by the victims family!!

Your not even good at ignoring the facts orion.. is shows more and more after each post. I love how you are tooting your horn... and lying. Give me a second to prove your most recent post .... well garbage.

And while I'm at it, please explain the phone calls.

Originally posted by OrionStars


7 falsely alleged hijackers were found alive overseas on 9/12/2001. Confirmed by the FBI and BBC. People cannot be dead and alive at the same time.



Anything else you need refuted from what you presented?

here ya go !

A five-year-old story from our archive has been the subject of some recent editorial discussion here. The story, written in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, was about confusion at the time surrounding the names and identities of some of the hijackers. This confusion was widely reported and was also acknowledged by the FBI.

The story has been cited ever since by some as evidence that the 9/11 attacks were part of a US government conspiracy.

We later reported on the list of hijackers, thereby superseding the earlier report. In the intervening years we have also reported in detail on the investigation into the attacks, the 9/11 commission and its report.

We’ve carried the full report, executive summary and main findings and, as part of the recent fifth anniversary coverage, a detailed guide to what’s known about what happened on the day. But conspiracy theories have persisted. The confusion over names and identities we reported back in 2001 may have arisen because these were common Arabic and Islamic names.

In an effort to make this clearer, we have made one small change to the original story. Under the FBI picture of Waleed al Shehri we have added the words "A man called Waleed Al Shehri..." to make it as clear as possible that there was confusion over the identity. The rest of the story remains as it was in the archive as a record of the situation at the time.

We recently asked the FBI for a statement, and this is, as things stand, the closest thing we have to a definitive view: The FBI is confident that it has positively identified the nineteen hijackers responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Also, the 9/11 investigation was thoroughly reviewed by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States and the House and Senate Joint Inquiry. Neither of these reviews ever raised the issue of doubt about the identity of the nineteen hijackers.

www.bbc.co.uk...

You can address that please

reply to post by CaptainObvious


What are you trying to say? It does not refute what I stated, and I have already covered that in other discussions.

Originally posted by OrionStars
Since you are the one so gung ho on insisting phone calls were made, which your accounting presented adds to already mass confusion - calls made at 0 altitude which means ground level - why don't you prove how that was possible, if alleged Flight 93 was supposed to always be in the air between alleged take-off/crash landing?

I will once again try to explain it to you. To show you and anyone else reading this thread how you are ignoring ALL evidence presented. After I explain the two phone calls @ zero alt. I would like you to explain all the other calls .... it flight 93 was alleged as you put it.

Two calls in question

Call 1. Jeremey Glick

Jeremy told his wife to take care of Emmy (Emerson), their 12-week-old daughter, and "have a good life."

He asked his wife not to hang up. He was going to leave the air phone off the hook while the group of passengers tried to implement their takeover. But she couldn't bear to listen and handed the phone to her father. Lyzbeth Glick's father heard rustling, a brief silence, then more rustling from the open line to the plane. Then screams followed by dead silence

www.unitedheroes.com...

Call 2 Todd Beamer

The phone line from Flight 93 was still open when a GTE operator heard Todd Beamer say: 'Are you guys ready? Let's roll'
www.post-gazette.com...

Beamer was posthumously awarded with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award in 2002



Ok, there are the two calls in question. Your turn to explain the others.

reply to post by OrionStars


I quoted your post about the BBC reporting alive highjackers. I posted the story from the BBC saying it was retracted 6 years ago. Try to spin that one.

reply to post by OrionStars

I know 401 existed.

I see, you know. I know that Flight 93 existed.

That was proved long ago, as was the illegal lifting of 401's crashed aircraft parts, while illegally placing them in another plane.

How was that proved? By the same NTSB and FAA that proved Flight 93 crashed? Can you provide me with valid physical evidence, or parts with serial numbers from that aircraft? Remember, this is your standard so you must stick to it.

Did you bother reading about that flight? Any history at all?

I read the link you gave me. No mention of illegal parts or the FAA being interested in them.

401 actually had live passengers rescued to confirm there really was a Flight 401 and they were on it.

Eyewitnesses reported Flight 93. Can you provide valid physical evidence that these alleged passengers are real people and that they were on the alleged Flight 401? No newspaper reports, government reports, or eyewitness reports. Only valid physical evidence will suffice. Remember, this is your standard so you must stick to it.

But wiki does not prove alleged Flight 93 even existed much less crashed around Shanksville, PA.

Then why are you using it as a source? Remember, this is your standard so you must stick to it.

What is you relevant point? You did not say.

This is my relevant point. We both use the same source for our own arguments. You dismiss mine simply because it does not fit into your conspiracy. Do you see your own double standard?

reply to post by Boone 870


Boone,

Can you hear the crickets chearping?

I posted a list of 10 items..asking if this evidence can be refuted... no takers yet.

I highly doubt I will see any.