FLIGHT 93 - The Biggest 911 Smoking Gun!

Well, Well, Well....

Thank you very much moderators....

You did exactly what I thought you would. You removed my post and penalized me.

You have now cemented the lie that is the "trueth movement".

Originally posted by dbates

John Lear stated: I know of no insurance claims that have been filed against any of the airlines.

That's really an unimformed claim. I don't know how you would know this. Do you have access to all of the insurance claims filed against an airline company. Do you work in the insurance industry or do you have any proof to back up this statement? Simply stating something does not make it true. It's nice to have a reputable source to back you up. That's why I linked to the flight manifest from a nationally known news program.

Your source is?

Uninformed claim? Are you saying Mr. Lear's statement that he has no knowledge, from any source, that any claims were filed against any airline corporation, is an uniformed claim? Exactly how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Mr. Lear has already stated he has no access to any of what you present, but you proceed to interogate him anyway, after he just stated he had no knowledge from any source. Which also clearly implies, he has no access either to garner any knowledge he already admitted did not have.

Names on some list do not guarantee the people belonging to those names actually boarded any aircraft. A list may simply a piece of paper with names on it. Now find the bodies or remains which have never been located for positive ID. A name on any list is not a positive ID of anyone.

Since the list is your counterpoint, why don't you prove the list you linked is a valid list? In other words, you have to find the bodies or remains that positively ID match to that list of names. Can you actually do that?

Please keep in mind that 7 to 9 of the alleged dead hijackers named, complete with the same faces, ended up being found alive in the Middle East and Central Asia. But they were on US bureaucrats' list presented to the media for publication as falsely accused alleged dead 9/11 hijackers.

It is very frustrating trying to find evidence or proof of what really did happen that day. For some obscure reason all intelligent agencies refuse to release any information ie videos of pentagon crash, very incriminating I feel. So I suggest a type of reverse engineering exercise be used from now on. This might entail sustained pressure being applied to all witnesses and experts to thoroughly explain what they saw or why they said it at the time over and over again until a crack appears in the wall . Maybe starting with finding the first on the scene. tracking their statements back to why or from whom they got their ideas or orders from. I feel the only breakthrough into this will have to come from a true patriot whistleblower who has decided to clear their conscience. I live in hope just my 2 cents worth.

reply to post by tezzajw

If it was blown up at high altitude, then MOST of the wreckage should still be laying somewhere, right? Unless the plane was flying so high that the wreckage burnt up upon reentry into the atmosphere?

Columbia disaster in 2003 (?) is a perfect example of scattered debris, burning up in the atmosphere at high altitude (200,000 ft), and SURVIVING.

I wish I had recorded the news that day - I still remember reports of a light aircraft hitting the Pentagon, and a shot of the building on fire (before the collapse, and before the gaping hole). Several minutes after this report and initial live pictures, the story changed to an explosion at the Pentagon, then we got to see (eventually) an actual big hole in the building. This was followed by reports of a plane hitting it (later to be Flight 77). It was the initial live pictures that I'll forever remember. It was broadcast on BBC News 24 in the UK (but on BBC 1), and I'll never forget it. Anyone else see it???????

[edit on 15-12-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

Originally posted by johnnyrobbo
It is very frustrating trying to find evidence or proof of what really did happen that day. For some obscure reason all intelligent agencies refuse to release any information ie videos of pentagon crash, very incriminating I feel. So I suggest a type of reverse engineering exercise be used from now on. This might entail sustained pressure being applied to all witnesses and experts to thoroughly explain what they saw or why they said it at the time over and over again until a crack appears in the wall . Maybe starting with finding the first on the scene. tracking their statements back to why or from whom they got their ideas or orders from. I feel the only breakthrough into this will have to come from a true patriot whistleblower who has decided to clear their conscience. I live in hope just my 2 cents worth.

Then may I recommend a very detailed accounting, complete with many photos, Peter Tiradera's 9-11 coup Against America! The Pentagon Analysis?

there was a plane, it just wasnt a 757, or any passenger plane. But it was enough to cause an explosion large enough to scare the crap out of anyone near. there was no debris when any reporter got there because the stuff was removed immediately so no one can have any physical evidence that it wasnt a 757.

The plane was probably remote controlled, or had an autopilot. No bodies needed.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by shiman]

there was a plane, it just wasnt a 757, or any passenger plane. But it was enough to cause an explosion large enough to scare the crap out of anyone near. there was no debris when any reporter got there because the stuff was removed immediately so no one can have any physical evidence that it wasnt a 757.

wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

No Debris???? Looks like a lot of debris around the Pentagon. Surprise
it is painted in the colors of American Airlines. Type of debris is also
comsistent with that of a Boening 757. Care to enlighten us further?

There were no passenger bodies or body parts to DNA ID for verification of those people named to be aboard one of 4 commercial airliners.

Where do you get this? Because it is so far from the truth that it makes one wonder.....

I also reserached and found the coroner and law enforcement officials, after arriving at the hole in the ground, originally stated no bodies or body parts were found. No plane or plane parts.

Really?

www.post-gazette.com...
www.cbsnews.com...

Eric Peterson of Lambertsville was working with a friend in his auto shop this morning. They heard a plane and looked up and saw a large aircraft close to the ground. "I actually thought it was going to hit a house here in town," said Peterson. It blew out windows of a nearby farmhouse when it crashed. As it went over started going end over end, Peterson said, and then dropped below a tree line and exploded. Peterson saw a flash and then a mushroom cloud of smoke. The plane went down on a strip mine field. Peterson and his friend rushed to the field and looked for bodies, but couldn't find any. They called out, but heard nothing. There was a crater in the ground that was really burning. There were pieces of fuselage and clothing all over the area, burning, said Peterson. He said he didn't see any debris longer than a couple of feet long

...DEBRIS FIELD SPREAD OVER AN AREA SIZE OF A FOOTBALL FIELD..." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Pennsylvania) September 11, 2001

Tim Lambert, who owns the land (164 acres total) where the plane crashed, lived in Harrisburg and came to Shanksville after the crash. He described his first visit there as "overwhelming and heartbreaking." He was absorbing the devastation when his escort, Somerset County Coroner Wally Miller, held up a quarter-size piece of metal. "As soon as he did that, you saw plane parts everywhere," Lambert says. Now, he can't help searching the ground every time he visits. "I don't notice the trees, the beauty of the land, the grass, or the snow," he says. "I just notice plane parts."[

Levine, Samantha. "In the sky, a heroic struggle aboard hijacked United Flight 93", U.S. News & World Report, September 2002.

State trooper, Tom Spallone said the plane was still smoldering at 12:30. He said officials were trying to keep people from scene and confirmed that there are no survivors. He said the "debris field spread over an area size of a football field, maybe two footballs fields." The impact of the crash was so severe that the biggest piece of debris he has seen there is no bigger than 2 feet.

DEBRIS FIELD SPREAD OVER AN AREA SIZE OF A FOOTBALL FIELD..." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Pennsylvania) September 11, 2001

Investigators this afternoon discovered the "black box" containing flight data recordings from United Flight 93 at the crash site in rural Somerset County

www.post-gazette.com...

On September 14, the cockpit voice recorder was located, buried 12 feet in the ground

Eggen, Dan and Amy Goldstein. "FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers; Some Lived in U.S. For Several Years", The Washington Post, September 15, 2001.

Im sorry.....what were you saying about there not being any wreckage???

The first problem with that statement is that it takes 11,000 degrees F heat plus some length of time to vaporize a plane.

And how many aircraft accidents have you investigated/helped clean up that you would know this? Because Ive helped with 5, and I know it doesnt take anywhere NEAR that temperature to disinigrate an aircraft.

That isn't the way I wrote that the above statement. You removed words which distorted what I wrote. Why did you do that?

No, I was quoting Johnlear...not you.

Would you care to validate any of you statements above? Because I can easily locate counter statements by an ex-USAF officier, whose job in the AF was to investigate military jet crashes.

And he had precisely ZERO access to any of the crash sites and ZERO access to any of the investigative reports. In other words, he doesnt know ANYTHING other than what he has read on conspiracy websites.

They saw a plane that was trying to keep its nose up, and then at the last second dived into the ground like a rock. That is anything but consistant with the 580 MPH that the alleged flight recorder recorded. a plane trying to keep its nose up would not be going that fast, and no i'm not a pilot.

Except in this case, the pilot WASNT trying to keep the nose up.

Thats the crater from a precision guided missile from Israel... Where does Israel get their guided missiles???

Israel? Does Israel's missiles turn the dirt a special color? Or maybe only Israel's missiles make holes in the ground? Or maybe you just hate Israel....

PROVE TO ME THAT IT WAS A PLANE AND I'LL BELIEVE YOU.

Lets see...we have hundreds of people who picked up the pieces, remains of those known to have been onboard the aircraft recovered from the site, pieces of wreckage recovered from the site, cockpit/data recorders belonging to that particular airframe recovered from the site....even the OJ jury wouldnt get this one wrong.

If bodies or remains are never recovered, and no proof exists death took place, how does anyone know if someone is actually dead or alive?

And yet, remains were recovered.......

Not a scorch mark on the grass... not a tiny piece of debris in the feild... just digging a deep hole in the ground... why

Zorgon, did you happen to notice the large scorched area in the trees?? or maybe the cloud of smoke in the trees in one of the other photos??

an engine was found several miles from where it 'crashed'

No actually only a couple hundred yards away....

Originally posted by thedman

there was a plane, it just wasnt a 757, or any passenger plane. But it was enough to cause an explosion large enough to scare the crap out of anyone near. there was no debris when any reporter got there because the stuff was removed immediately so no one can have any physical evidence that it wasnt a 757.

wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

No Debris???? Looks like a lot of debris around the Pentagon. Surprise
it is painted in the colors of American Airlines. Type of debris is also
comsistent with that of a Boening 757. Care to enlighten us further?

A lot of the debris was from the pentagon itself. The debris there can also be compared to a missile painted with the american airlines colors.

There wasnt supposed to be pics of the original "crash" before the roof collapses, but the government cant hide everything. A plane cant go that deem into the pentagon, and there is no damage where the wings and engines shouldve been. Thew hole created is way to small for a 757. The burning fuel wouldve burnt the monitor and books that can be seen in some pics before the roof of the outer wall ceeling collapses.

This thread is about the plane that crashed into the ground in, was it pennsylvania?

Originally posted by thedman
No Debris???? Looks like a lot of debris around the Pentagon. Surprise
it is painted in the colors of American Airlines. Type of debris is also
comsistent with that of a Boening 757. Care to enlighten us further?

Care to show us the wreckage of flight UA93? The plane that supposedly crashed... errr... shot down... what are we supposed to believe?

Originally posted by thedman

No Debris???? Looks like a lot of debris around the Pentagon. Surprise
it is painted in the colors of American Airlines. Type of debris is also
comsistent with that of a Boening 757. Care to enlighten us further?

There seems to be a serious problem with the debris at the Pentagon. For example, one piece had lime-green zinc chromate primer. Boeing didn't use lime-green zinc primer until 2000-2001. The alleged 757 was built in 1991 at which time only dark-green zinc primer was used. (Information from Peter Tiradera's book)

One of the gravest problems the US bureaucrats had was stating all the planes vaporized after impact. They came up with that one because people were questioning where their loved ones' bodies or remains had gone.

Then there is the passport mystery. The US bureaucrats reported to the media that a passport, of one of the alleged hijackers, was found on a sidewalk outside the WTC. Exactly how did a passport of someone alleged to be in an airplane, over 800' in the air, end up landing on a sidewalk not far from the WTC?

Originally posted by Boone 870
Rumsfeld never said that $2.3 trillion was missing. He said it could not be "tracked". Do you know the reason that the money couldn't be tracked?

Sure it was used for "black ops' and other projects.. No paper trail so the accountants had /have no way to 'track' the money..

Point is its not accounted for Are YOU comfortable with that knowing your hard worked for dollars that you faithfully pay your taxes on to support your government are spent in that amount and not 'trackable'?

That's five months before George W. Bush accepted the Republican nomination for presidency and 18 months before the terrorist attacks. So much for the "day before" claim.

I did not accuse Bush nor made any mention of WHO took the money or when... I showed a News press release by Rumsfeld made on the day before 911 in regards to this money. The date is on the news cast I did not place it there...

If all was forgotten, why is a congresswoman talking about it on C-SPAN?

Have you heard any more on the outcome of this investigation? Have you seen the answers to her requests aired on any mainstream (or other) media? If so please point me to it as I must have missed it

Thanks

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

And how many aircraft accidents have you investigated/helped clean up that you would know this? Because Ive helped with 5, and I know it doesnt take anywhere NEAR that temperature to disinigrate an aircraft.

The difference here is "Vaporized" leaving no trace... not "disintegrated into millions of small parts. If you have helped on 5 crash sites then you know there is small scraps all over the place... Or do you have photos from those five that show similar lack of debris as the Pennsylvania site?

Aluminum burns at 2800 degress centigrade and leaves a lot of white ash... Yes I saw the small area of burnt trees and a little bit of white smoke (white smoke from wood burning... jet fuel plastic rubber etc burn with a thick acrid BLACK smoke)

So what you are telling me that the amount of jet fuel barely burnt a few trees... did not touch the dry grass beside the crater to even singe it... yet this 50,000 or so gallons of fuel was hot enough and burned long enough to "Vaporize" Aluminum?

jet-engined aircraft. ... Maximum burning temperature:, 980 °C (1796 °F).

Aluminum
Melting Point: 660.37 °C (933.52 K, 1220.666 °F)
Boiling Point: 2467.0 °C (2740.15 K, 4472.6 °F)

So jet fuel CAN melt Aluminum but please explain to me how it got hot enough to vaporize it?


Here is a scene of the area BEFORE they brought in the excavating equipment... Not a sign of anything save a few burnt trees,,,



Here is another view of the "smoke"



But this DEP crew did not arrive until 9/16/2001

Yet in these earlier images I do not see any burnt trees...






And if you have seen airline crashes how do you account for this small plume of smoke created by the 'crash'? A mere puff, no fireball from all that fuel?

Lets see...we have hundreds of people who picked up the pieces, remains of those known to have been onboard the aircraft recovered from the site, pieces of wreckage recovered from the site, cockpit/data recorders belonging to that particular airframe recovered from the site....

I count 22... 9 in white 13 in yellow... I do not see ONE person picking up debris

I count 1 small volunteer fire truck with yellow 'buckets' of water... I see no ambulance, no coroners vehicle to remove remains in either the initial response or the secondary excavation team that had to dig down 45 feet to find this airplane... Please explain to me this lack of medical vehicles on site

an engine was found several miles from where it 'crashed'

No actually only a couple hundred yards away....

No actually the initial report I heard on the radio said a 'few miles away' As I said that reports is no longer available in the same way mirageofdeceit cannot find his material I too wish I had recorded it... but how were we to know that one day we would have to prove it? and how were we to know that the news reports would change?

Everyone I know CLEARLY remembers exactly where they were that day and what they did, heard and felt...


Edit to add... This sight lists many references to the engine found a great distance from the site... but many links from there to small time media sources have already disappeared as well... to bad no one recorded any of this...

www.flight93crash.com...

[edit on 16-12-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by OrionStars

From the San Franciso Chronicle:
SFChronicle
Willie Brown publicly admitted he was warned on 9/10.

A very interesting point that is getting overlooked. Here we have another public official claiming inexplicably to have received prior knowledge of the attack.

I also fixed your link in the above post.

Originally posted by runetang
you're right, with a high enough explosive, it gets vaporized, charred, turned into dust basically.

What?

So the plane came down at high speed, hit the ground and instantaneously turned into a dust cloud?
Maybe if Will E. Coyote was the pilot sure, but it real life that would be absurd.

I may not believe ALL of the conspiracy theories regarding what happened on 9/11, but I'm not going to blindly ignore the unusual contradictions and the anomalous/dubious "evidence".

reply to post by thedman


That is not the wreckage from United Airlines Flight 93 that crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania Thedman. That is the wreckage that is claimed missing, why are you showing the Pentagon damage?

Flight 93 is the main topic of this thread and the claim for the "smoking gun", so we shouldn't get sidetracked into a different discussion already being discussed in other threads.

- Lee

So what you are telling me that the amount of jet fuel barely burnt a few trees... did not touch the dry grass beside the crater to even singe it... yet this 50,000 or so gallons of fuel was hot enough and burned long enough to "Vaporize" Aluminum?

Fuel load on Flight 93 was about 5,000 gal (not 50,000) - when plane
hit ground at around 580mph the fuel tanks would be ruptured and fuel
atomized. The fuel cloud would ignite in impressive fireball. The cloud
would burn in a upward direction with little heat transfer to the ground
Also time was early September - trees have green leaves which makes
difficult to ignite. Seen this with plane crash in my town (lear 35 -
which while smaller/less fuel same effect) - impressive fireball little
effect on ground. Able to extinguish fire with hand lines using water
spray/fog.

You want debris ?

911myths.com...

911myths.com...

You asked why nobody picking up debris

After FBI hazardous materials response teams examined the remains of the wreckage and determined levels of toxic and flammable materials were low enough for workers to proceed safely in protective gear, investigators fanned out — searching around the soot-rimmed crater the plane left in the ground, and walking into the gash it cut in the nearby woods. Investigators are using yellow and red flags to stake spots around the site to mark where they had located parts from the aircraft, human remains or personal items belonging to the plane's 38 passengers and seven crewmembers.

New to the forum.
I grew up in the general area of Shanksville - not 10 miles away and still have friends and family in that area. I've visited the Flight 93 site three or four times. It is desolate, isolated and remote, not highly populated. Strip mines, farmland, coal mines, scrapyards/junkyards and some modest housing.
The people who live here are honest , hardworking and genuine. Salt of the earth. They would never be a party to a hoax or coverup.
If you are interested in the truth, I suggest a trip to Shanksville, talk to locals. There is a farm house directly off the view of all photos - the land owner of this site. I would think his family saw what there was to see. I believe (not certain of this) he is currently in a struggle with the government regarding use/ownership/sale of the land. Shanksville residents will tell anyone who asks the honest truth. A very few reported seeing a large low flying plane, etc. There was a plane. Those people on board were tragically killed. I think the only question is, was the plane shot down. THis site, as the crow flies and as an airplane can fly is close enough to Raven Rock, Md. and Camp Davis Md. I assume both sites could be of interest to a terrorist, or maybe it was coincidence and simply in the flight path to Washington D.C.
Has anyone on this forum been to the Flight 93 Site? Thanks.

Originally posted by lee anoma

Originally posted by OrionStars

From the San Franciso Chronicle:
SFChronicle
Willie Brown publicly admitted he was warned on 9/10.

[quoteI also fixed your link in the above post.

Thank you.

reply to post by zorgon

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Boone 870
Rumsfeld never said that $2.3 trillion was missing. He said it could not be "tracked". Do you know the reason that the money couldn't be tracked?

Sure it was used for "black ops' and other projects.. No paper trail so the accountants had /have no way to 'track' the money..

Not exactly. Here's the none quote-mined paragraph from Rumsfeld's speech.

The technology revolution has transformed organizations across the private sector, but not ours, not fully, not yet. We are, as they say, tangled in our anchor chain. Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it's stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.

originally posted by zorgon
Point is its not accounted for Are YOU comfortable with that knowing your hard worked for dollars that you faithfully pay your taxes on to support your government are spent in that amount and not 'trackable'?

Not even close. Apparently, neither is Rumsfeld. Here's a link with the entire speech.

911myths.com has an entire page dedicated to the subject with both sides of the story. It's a pretty good read.

originally posted by zorgon
I did not accuse Bush nor made any mention of WHO took the money or when... I showed a News press release by Rumsfeld made on the day before 911 in regards to this money. The date is on the news cast I did not place it there...

I know you didn't accuse Bush, but it certainly appears to me that you aligned the crosshairs on Rumsfeld.

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999


Where your pictures of the wreckage???

Thats a pretty sweet way to make a post with a bunch of quotes that you snipped to pieces.

And, i didn't say that Israel shot a precision guided missile at them, I'm saying that that looks similar to the pic i found of the hole that precision guided missiles leave when they hit raw earth. From now on when i want to get a point across, maybe i should try mish- mashing and editing peoples quotes.

There are certain hard facts that people who accept the Official Fairy Tale cannot elude and will not discuss:

The airplane that allegedly crashed in Penn. had TWO massive engines and a belly full of luggage. None of those were found or displayed. No eyewitness has ever told of hauling the engines out, and the other massive parts that will not disintegrate upon impact. Why no quotes from the truckers who hauled them away? Who are they are where? Why is there no luggage laying around? There is debris, trash..like a staged event for sure. But no major parts and no testimony from anyone claiming to see, handle or transport them. Curious, eh?

Also, at the Pentagon, we see ONE hole far too small for a huge jet, NOT the TWO holes that we should see from the 6 tons ( each ) engines!! Imagine that!! The two engines hit the wall and leave no mark!! But the nose of the plane, hollow and frail, manages to make a 12 X 10 hole and then proceed thru 3 or 4 more walls leaving round holes along the way!!Imaginwe that!! Take a lot of imagination to believe the Official Lie, doesn't it?

9-11 was far too complicated and layered to have been the result of happenstance and some guy in a cave directing Saudis with boxcutters to get really lucky and knock down two Towers with gravity and fire..imagine that!! When will the people wake up?