US: thanks for destroying our world!

Talk about contradicting oneself. If there's one thing capitalism likes, it's your hard earned cash

and it's very much appreciated.

Actually, he was pointing out your hypocracy. You bash capitalism while enjoying the benefits of it. You claim greed is a bad thing, yet you yourself are greedy. You do not need a computer or the electricity that powers it; you do not need the internet you use to attack others for greed and enjoying capitalism. Yet you choose to purchase these things, you choose to enjoy them. You do not have to spend your money on these things, yet you do.

You could give all your money to charity, and subsist on only what you need to survive. Yet you choose not to. That itself is a form of greed.

Originally posted by jedimiller

No problem friend, the US has lots to apologize about. Global Warming, War, racism, torture. etc.

Yes, I remember when Thomas Edison invented war, racism and torture.

Originally posted by kindred
Spoken like a true capitalist sheep. Using a computer does not make me a hypocrite. I paid for my computer using my hard earned cash. The same goes for my internet connection. Like anyone else living in the west, I was born in a capitalist country. I simply have no choice but to make the best of a bad situation. Just because I live in a capitalist country, doesn't mean I have to like it. I would gladly change it given half a chance.

Yes, you did pay for it. But you didn't need those things. You are greedy. Oh, and by the way, the components in your computer -- built by capitalists.

And you do have a choice. You can hop on any plane, provided by the evil capitalists, and fly yourself to China or Cuba or Venezuela. You do not have to stay in the UK. No one is forcing you. Perhaps, if you weren't so greedy and did not frivoulously spend your money on things like computers and the internet, you could afford to move.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Heil to jedimiller indeed! One of the very very few people in this thread who understands it. 4thDoctorWhoFan, thanks for proving my point.

Umm...ok What point would that be?
Unless your point is that you and jedi want everyone to conform to your ideology, which is total lunacy.

but as of now all the you-hate-America people have proven to be incapable to come up with a good motive for choosing the big fuel consuming SUVs over less consuming cars.

You mean besides the fact that I would not want to be in a major crash with a little tiny 'snap-together' 'green' car right?

Also, its none of your business what type of car I want to drive. Mind your own business. If you want to be 'green' for no particular reason, go ahead, but leave me alone!! Your type is always against BIG government telling everyone how to live their lives, yet you are doing the exact same thing. Hypocrit!

The I-don't-care attitude is the most selfish and ignorant attitude a person can have.

By definition it CANNOT be selfish or ignorant since the entire global warming theory is total garbage and a scam. 30 years from now you are going to look rather silly when everything is the same. I will look at you like I do the scientists from 30 years ago who thought we would be in a ice age by now.

while scanning the New-Post list....I just had to do a double-take

because i swear i read "U.S Banks destroying our world"





but that must of been a hallucination as i re-read the actual thread title.
(but someone may be working on that line of thought ~& thats what i picked up)
thanks,

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
By definition it CANNOT be selfish or ignorant since the entire global warming theory is total garbage and a scam. 30 years from now you are going to look rather silly when everything is the same.

I will look at you like I do the scientists from 30 years ago who thought we would be in a ice age by now.

I think you're missing the point. Global warming has already happened. Weather patterns have changed. Climates are different. Ice has melted, and species are threatened. Whether or not humans are responsible or not is the debate, not whether it's happening. If you only count extremes of temperature as worldwide desert or ice age, then perhaps you find this level of global warming to be disappointing - but I suspect there are many societies around the world who have had enough already.

Besides, global warming is only one of many ways that we may affect our environment. Your responsibility to the world you live in is not solely measured by how hot or cold you make the climate. The very wellbeing of you and those around you is affected by the ecological choices you make - or fail to make. If you use up resources needlessly, they will run out sooner. That doesn't just mean fossil fuels - but metals, paper and water as well.

You accuse the eco-warriors of obfuscating the point by clinging to a theory for which in your view there is insufficient evidence. Actually it's you who clouds the issue. To suggest that because gobal warming is not your fault you shouldn't have to do anything about it is like saying because a man on fire is not your fault, you shouldn't fetch water.

Utter twaddle.

LW

Yes you do have a choice you can take your unhappy non appreciated "Hard Earned Cash" buy yourself a plane ticket and move...

But don't you see! She has no choice because the evil capitalists are preventing her from moving. I'm not sure how, but I suppose she'll explain it to us.

What's wrong with Socialism?

S for Stagnation

O for Oppression

C for Coercion

I for Iron Hand

A for Atrophy

L for Lies

I for Infamy

S for Subjection

M for Mass Execution and Graves

Perhaps you should read a history of the Soviet Union and the People Republic of China and their quest for the perfect "socialist" society.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by SaviorComplex]

it doesn't matter if it's capitalistic or socialistic, or communistic!! humanity's tendancy towards hording, selfishness, and desire for more will always find a way to use whatever system there is to gain more of what they want, at the expense of others. each of these systems would work just fine, if it wasn't for this small fault in human behavior.
so, I would venture to say, weather you are talking about proverty, or hunger, or starvation, or global warming...the answer isn't within the governments, or the world body, but instead it is within the masses of people.

Regardless of what is causing global warming, I believe it is happening. And, maybe, just maybe there isn't much we can do now to prevent it. if this is the case, maybe we'd be better to spend our resources getting the masses ready for the change? ya know, instead of rebuilding new orleans, and hoping it's citizens come back, we find someplace we expect to be a little safer and establish them there instead?

Originally posted by LoneWeasel
I think you're missing the point. Global warming has already happened.

No!.....you're missing the point. Nothing has happened regarding GW. Its all a load of garbage and a scam.

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan

Originally posted by LoneWeasel
I think you're missing the point. Global warming has already happened.

No!.....you're missing the point. Nothing has happened regarding GW. Its all a load of garbage and a scam.

Not only are you missing the point, but you haven't the courtesy to read the e-mails you're dismissing properly. Aside from the fact that global warming can be demonstrated to have taken place because we measure the temperatures of the atmosphere and earth, and the size of the ice caps that rely on cold temperatures - my point was that global warming is just one of many problems facing our environment. Your responsibility to that environment includes all of them. Not just the global warming which may or may not be human-caused or indeed a severe problem in the first place.

Please read posts properly before you dismiss them, otherwise the debate becomes, like Dr Who, for kids.

Thanks

LW

reply to post by kindred


Are you serious? Capitalism is the fairest economic system that has ever been in existence in the entire history of mankind. You're confusing equal opportunities with equal results. There's no other economic system that allows one to benefit as much from the fruits of their labors, and to move up the socio-economic ladder, as exists in Capitalism. The problem with Socialists and Communists, is that they don't recognize the fact that one's salary is their own money and not the Government's, and that the more oppressive the taxes, the less personal freedom one has. Capitalism supports the individual's freedom, rather same some bogus notion of the collective. It also encourages innovation, entreprenuers, job creation, and productivity. Socialism/Communism encourages mediocrity, as one doesn't see the rewards of excelling. As for selfishness, Socialism's view on one's money is- don't be selfish, give it to me.

global warming is a natural cycle created by an increase in heat, from the sun. Human contribution to carbon is neglegable because the earth was made to filter it out via trees. The modern panic is from ignorance and official bull from the pulpit of leeches. Everyone I think who follows the modern religion of global warming is the same kind of sucker that thinks theyre getting adeal at some ritsy department store on a new handbag. Its just a bunch of salesmen pushing global warming, oh nvm, socialist control freak tax loving salesmen.
I like earth just the way it is, minus plastic, oil drilling and government subversions.

I will say though that global warming in my own narrow world comes from taking oil from the ground, which probably helps dither or balance out earth from the suns impact. Were basicly taking the ground out from beneath our feet and using it to do useless crap for paper and a feeling all day. So yes the global warming freaks are right in a way, but not on the main cause of global warming. Trees and carbon collectors would be great to clean the air in major cities. But global tax? NO WAY JOSE!

www.google.com...



[edit on 18-12-2007 by mastermind77]

Originally posted by melatonin

The problem is that some people are starting from the position of 'this is economically bad' and then to 'it doesn't exist', I feel. When it should be assessed the other way round. If you think it's not economically feasible to act, fair enough. If you don't want to act because SUVs are your life's love, fair enough. If you don't like government interference and the possibility of taxes, fair enough. But that should not lead people to obvious confirmation bias and ideological pursuits to obscure the science, they are different aspects of the issue.

As for the remainder of the the earlier post. You can say 'we don't truly know' all you like, we have a fair degree of certainty of the causes. And by saying that scientists manipulate the data to give predetermined results, I call that dishonest - I don't believe the vast majority do this. Just like I call the US government dishonest by manipulating reports and gagging scientists for a predetermined need to obscure the science - "vulnerability: science".

Perhaps not the vast majority, but there are scientists whose findings are used to further agendas, and I know it is not a one way street. There are just as many funded by Big Oil, Big Business etc. that skew their data to satisfy a different agenda than the environmentalist crowd.

I do believe that humans are trashing this Earth, I don't even own a car let alone an SUV, and when I did it was a 4-cylider Toyota. But I also believe that the problem is being manipulated by the powers that be and used as another tool to strip away your liberties and regulate your life.

The very fact that they have convinced people that Carbon Dioxide is a pollutant, coupled with the fact that every human being expels Carbon Dioxide should scare the hell out of everyone reading this. It is a stepping stone for attaching individual blame on people for simply living, and is opening a door for government to literally tax the air you breathe.

It is going to take changes on a mass scale, releasing newer, cleaner energy technologies which I believe already exist and are being kept from us by the powers that be so that we may feel personally responsible for the deforestation of the rain forest, or guilty because we want to drive a family of six to that vacation on the beach comfortably and safely (which is not possible in a Ford Focus).

In the long run what kind of car you drove is not going to amount to squat in this "fight against global warming."

As to your contention that we have a fair degree of certainty of the causes, it is my humble opinion that we as a human race have little certainty over anything, although we like to think we do. I know you will disagree with this, but these are our opinions and it seems to do little good arguing opinion. I have much enjoyed our debates here, you are obviously intelligent, well educated and well spoken.

As far as the solar effects on our atmosphere/climate I wanted to know your opinion of the reports in regards to the Martian ice caps melting at the same rate as ours, but I have started reading a thread about a new model for the way our sun works that would render this debate worthless. It focuses on an electrical model for the sun as opposed to the accepted thermo-nuclear model. Check it out here if you are interested:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If we have been wrong about how the sun works, what else have we been wrong about? Just another testament to how little we really know.

Originally posted by LoneWeasel

I think you're missing the point. Global warming has already happened. Weather patterns have changed. Climates are different. Ice has melted, and species are threatened. Whether or not humans are responsible or not is the debate, not whether it's happening.

LoneWeasel, can you please point to a time in Earth's history when weather patterns did not change? The Earth has existed for millions of years, what makes us so egotistical to say that the climate of the last hundred years is the "right" one? Can you point to a time when ice did not melt? Can you explain to me why there are many glaciers expanding rather than shrinking? Can you explain to me why the 6,000 year warming trend of Antarctica is slowing down and the ice there is actually getting thicker?

Originally posted by jedimiller
No problem friend, the US has lots to apologize about. Global Warming, War, racism, torture. etc.

jedmiller, I see you have made it back on line and have ignored my question to you in regards to your idea of outlawing trucks, so I will ask again,

DID YOU BUY FOOD AT THE GROCERY STORE THIS WEEK??

getting hungry yet?

Originally posted by DrZERO
It is a stepping stone for attaching individual blame on people for simply living, and is opening a door for government to literally tax the air you breathe.

Well, if they do attempt to tax the air we breathe, I'll be in the mob descending on parliament

I really don't know the best way to bring about mitigation, I just think it is an important action.

In the long run what kind of car you drove is not going to amount to squat in this "fight against global warming."

It's more a case of every little helps, but no point the public using buses, trains, and eco-friendly cars, if industry takes no responsibility as well.

As to your contention that we have a fair degree of certainty of the causes, it is my humble opinion that we as a human race have little certainty over anything, although we like to think we do.

I think we don't 'truly' know, as you put it. I understand enough about science to know it doesn't really provide Truth(TM), that's for religion and maths. Science is tentative, working from the very best evidence we have available, open to change at all times with relaible and valid evidence.

The problem with scientists is that they are all a bit ADHD-like, they study something, find stuff out, then move on into new areas of uncertainty. We are always waist deep in it. When there is no uncertainity, science ends (not likely, of course - one answer normally leads to several questions).

But, on this issue, the certainity is quite high that human emissions are having at least some significant influence. Determining whether it be 30%, 40%, 50% etc, is more uncertain, but we can be quite happy it is an important influence.

For all we know solar activity may fall by 5% in the next 20 years, and the effects of GHGs will be ameliorated somewhat, but it isn't worth the risk, IMO.

I have much enjoyed our debates here

Aye, me too. You're not evasive like some people are on this issue. We can easily agree to disagree. I'll still poke you in future if I think you're off the mark, of course, heh.

As far as the solar effects on our atmosphere/climate I wanted to know your opinion of the reports in regards to the Martian ice caps melting at the same rate as ours

Haven't heard the same melting rate business before, but the warming on mars has been linked to albedo changes from dust storms.

Check it out here if you are interested:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If we have been wrong about how the sun works, what else have we been wrong about? Just another testament to how little we really know.

Heh, I'll have a proper look later, but people here tend to put new science together with fringe theories, and get all a bit excited. It's like the cosmic ray thing, sounds very exciting and interesting, moreso than the poor boring greenhouse gases.

So, in sum, still wouldn't negate the physical properties of GHGs and other human influences

ABE: just for interest: A debate was arranged between Andrew Dessler (a professor in atmos. physics) and Tim Ball (retired geography prof) for last night. However, Ball wasn't able to get involved for whatever reason. Still interesting to hear Dessler talk about the scientific position, though.

Global Warming Discussion

[edit on 18-12-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by LoneWeasel
Not only are you missing the point, but you haven't the courtesy to read the e-mails you're dismissing properly.

A) Sorry, but the point is way over your head I guess.
B) I have no idea what you are talking about regarding emails.

Aside from the fact that global warming can be demonstrated to have taken place because we measure the temperatures of the atmosphere and earth, and the size of the ice caps that rely on cold temperatures

Umm.....only by some scientists. Others say differently. Nothing has been proven regarding GW. Its just a theory and the one's who say humans are causing GW are so far off basis its scary.

Originally posted by Mdv2

That the American people have always been too stubborn to change their polluting habits is not a new fact. They are deeply in love with their SUVs and don't see why a smaller less fuel consuming car should be an option to consider when buying a new car.

Read this:

Bush to sign new mileage standards into law

However the fact that the US is blocking European proposals to reduce CO² emissions by 25 to 40 percent by 2020, greatly bothers me.

Exactly how is the US blocking European Proposals? By all means, reduce your CO2 emissions as much as you want, in any manner you wish.

The scientifical debate has taken place and scientists generally agree that we , human beings, are responsible for speeding up global warming.

Are you sure about this? From the title of your thread it seems like you think "we" "Americans" are responsible.

The fact that thousands of people will die because of (sea) floods is not of such a relevance to act today.

I can only hope you're being intentionally over-dramatic here.

Everyone will experience the consequences that have been caused by the US in specific.

OK....this is where it became clear to me you're just trying to incite impassioned and impulsive angry responses.

Disclaimer: I do not try to insult the American people, but....

Well, you do.

reply to post by jedimiller


May the farce be with you. You are sorry, yes you are

You are not apopgizing for me or anyone else. Do you realize you are not even spreading good will. If America does something is it always for evil and if America does nothing it is because they do not have any evil to gain.

You my friend when people come to harm us need to be on the frontline offering your apologies to see if they do any good...you are the one who does not get it

Instead of your support of America bashers you should have been online with Free_IR and Myself talking about the positive understanding of learning of other cultures and knowing what Americans Role in the World could be, instead of coming up with those positive things you are on here selling out you countrymen...shame on you

reply to post by DrZERO


I am glad you pointed out the warming cycle in antarctica is slowing when I say it nobody listens.

Also nobody not one person has even responded that the US agreed to the Emissions Agreement in Bali. Of course will ignore that part now, I am sure we have some evil agenda

Third Jedi Miller is never going to respond to you, were not his kind WE ARE AMERICANS

Socialism is not Communism
When most Americans hear the word 'socialism', they think of communism. In reality, most socialists today are hard-core liberals, not authoritarian soviet communists. There are some members of Congress in the Democratic Socialist Party. All of these Congressmen and Congresswomen are Democrats and Independents. They believe in civil rights, economic fairness, and fair trade. They are all progressives. Not one wants a Soviet take-over! Why are you considered a patriot if you are a KKK member, but a traitor if you are a socialist? KKK members are racist, whereas socialists want everyone to be equal in civil rights and in law!

speakout.com...
www.romm.org...

If you people seriously think capitalism is a good thing for humanity and Planet Earth. Then I only have one thing to say - "See you all in Hell".

SaviorComplex
Yes, you did pay for it. But you didn't need those things. You are greedy. Oh, and by the way, the components in your computer -- built by capitalists.

And you do have a choice. You can hop on any plane, provided by the evil capitalists, and fly yourself to China or Cuba or Venezuela. You do not have to stay in the UK. No one is forcing you. Perhaps, if you weren't so greedy and did not frivoulously spend your money on things like computers and the internet, you could afford to move.

Your making absolutely no sense whatsoever. Who are you to call me greedy. I'm a very spiritual person. I frankly couldn't careless about material possessions. Your the one who seems to have an obsession with wealth and materialistic possessions, not me. Everything I have is simply for practical purposes or reasons.

So big deal, I have a computer and an internet, but it's not like I'm rolling about in bling or even desire too. Even poor people in third world countries like Africa have computers and internet connections. Are they greedy too? Shame on them.

Your right about one thing though. I do have a choice and I'm staying put and I will glady contribute to replacing capitalism with a fairer, less greedy, less selfish and corrupt Economic system.