Dealing with 9/11 Madness (argumentum ad hominem veritas)

Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by spav5

 

It's really not that hard to be civil toward each other mate. You don't need a degree or anything....

Did you read my post? I said nothing about being civil. Perhaps you should reread my very short post.

Rarely am I not civil...what does a degree have to do with anything? Sorry I don't follow that line of logic, please explain yourself.

Peace

I would like to apologize for my conduct in the poll thread on 9/11. I shouldn't have reacted to the goading and just left it with my reaction to the poll.

As it is, I stand by my removed statement that I cannot consider a specific member to be reasonable, as his posts were basically directly inflammatory toward anyone who didn't agree, boiling down to straight up name-calling (hence why his post was removed as well). I suppose I shouldn't have used the word troll, though that did define him at the time (using attacks to garner a non-civil response).

Again, apologies for that. I will make sure that if I resume posting here, I won't use any kind of stereotyped names which can be taken as insults. They certainly detract from the discussion and only inflame tempers.

I'd been reading the 9/11 poll thread with interest before it descended into slanging match. People just won't let go even when they're 'apologising' for previous bad behaviour.

It just reminded me why I keep away from the 9/11 threads.

I don't understand the 'science', even when it's carefully explained. I'm much more able to follow the 'money trail' or observe 'who gains the most' in the aftermath.

For someone like me, it just makes the arguments on either side harder to follow when the debate gets personal. So well done for cracking down.

I watched a documentary the other night that looked as if it might give an even-handed account of 9/11 and why conspiracy theorists were suspicious of the official story. How wrong I was. All the participants supporting the OS were quiet, calm, neat and tidy. And well spoken. Everyone they'd dredged up from the conspiracy side were either wild-eyed, long-haired, bearded or obviously eccentric. Mostly a mix of all these characteristics **

Most of us can see through the facades we're presented with when dealing with other people, but even someone open-minded will be swayed by the way an argument is presented, and by whom.

** Nothing wrong with any of that until someone uses it against you to try and discredit your side of a debate

I know that I need to stay away from this forum, especially this fall. It's too emotional a topic, and I've been exposed to too much information. The truth is that it'll be shelved along with the Lincoln and Kennedy murders, and there's no fixing that regardless of who exposes what. When this empire finally falls, it will have been the fault of every one of its citizens. Individually and collectively.

reply to post by spav5


It meant you don't need a degree to be able to be civil, come on mate the logic wasn't that hard to follow. But I did read your post wrong, as you did mine, so the point is moot.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by backinblack
ATS is not supposed to be about censorship ...

Now that pissed me off, even though I fully expected "someone" to cry "censorship" over this action.

We've been warning those who participate in the 9/11 forum for years to clean up their act. If a topic can't be discussed in the manner we insist, that topic is in danger of being removed. Simple.

The bottom line is due to the minority of bad members, you are giving up on ATS as a whole and you are (threatening to) enacting the most powerful form of censorship (closing an entire forum) to "fix" the problem.

You have all the answers right there in your above statement but you choose not to rid us of these problematic members for some odd reason... stop warning these troubled makers for years on end (they are laughing at these never ending warnings) and ban them for good.

Prove that ATS is above taking the easy way out. Closing down an entire forum to deal with a minority of bad members is simplistic at best and does zero toward the real issue. How many future or current forums will you censor entirely as a method to deal with members who are causing problems?


You state that you are having more problems with those who support a 9/11 conspiracy: I say that these people were never really conspiracy supporters but trouble makers/provocateurs:

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Let me make one more very important point before I depart for the night.

Those who post in support of 9/11 conspiracy theories and related speculation who cast aspersions on those who don't believe their theories and toss around insulting names (like "shill") are doing more to force ATS staff to reconsider the 9/11 forum than anyone who prefers the "official story."...

The ultimate method to destroy something is to emulate your target and destroy it from the inside.

You keep saying how you hate censorship and how it pisses you off when people accuse you of it; if this is truly the case, prove to us (your supporting members) that you will not censor the entire 9/11 forum due to a minority of out of control members.

If you shut down the 9/11 forum, you have allowed the very people who never cared about this site to destroy a very important part of it.

But this is your house, if you want to destroy it as a form of pest control, all we can do is sadly watch.

Respectfully stated.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Let me make one more very important point before I depart for the night.

Those who post in support of 9/11 conspiracy theories and related speculation who cast aspersions on those who don't believe their theories and toss around insulting names (like "shill") are doing more to force ATS staff to reconsider the 9/11 forum than anyone who prefers the "official story."


I personally am very much vested in the continuation of this forum -- but I'm MORE VESTED in ATS and ensuring all discussions on this site live up to our rather simple to understand standards.

I am certain that 9/11 is a big draw for the lurkers as well as for the members. It is what brought Me here five years ago. ATS without 9/11 is like a BLT with no bacon...and no tomato. And who loves a lettuce sandwich?

Rather than warn people (and most change through the years - so likely haven't seen the warnings), deal with the posts themselves.

BTW... It is ok to say something (when it is truthful) like, "I think You're a shill." ? That is an opinion and does not accuse. The responsibility for the view is owned. Would that still be a problem?

The 9/11 forum is what brought me to ATS, if it was to be shuttered because of trolls on both sides, then ATS as a whole would be in jeopardy. Over the years I have seen some very good posters banned because of 9/11 trolls.
Those trolls end up getting banned themselves too, but they accomplished there mission if they were able to antagonize a member to the point that they lashed out and got banned. I would say if you have a thread where 99% of the people are discussing a topic civilly and one troll comes and insults there intelligence he should be gone.
Yes 10 years later the time is over to continue to allow insults to the huge amount of people that are discussing 9/11, by those that want the discussion to end, and use insults to do it.
If the 9/11 forum is ever closed I will personally feel that ATS has finally been comprised as a conspiracy website.
As 9/11 defines everything this site stands for, as 9/11 is the biggest conspiracy of our age.

Hold on, this is a thread about behaviour on another another thread, stick to that. All I can say is, that in my experience so far, (and I don't participate in every 9/11 in a constant way) the shouters come from both sides, but there are also very many who bring something to the table. That is more important, there are others who don't, and are persistent in their absence of content, and replete with single minded dogmatism.

What a shame the staff of ATS has to play babysitter to a bunch of spoiled adults who can't control their emotions. The staff of ATS should be bored out of their wits here because everyone behaves themselves like mature human beings. But instead, even this thread has become a war zone.

Folks. We need to realize when some discussions have reached an impasse. And from that point bow out of the conversation gracefully. Agree to disagree for today.

Is civility and manners toward other members so much to ask for? Even if you vehemently oppose another members ideologies, can you not do it with proper restraint?

Are we children who need to be disciplined as such? Or adults who act responsibly and comely toward others.

Yep, I knew there was a reason I avoided the 9/11 forums after about a month on ATS...like a dance of gas and matches.

got a lot of emotions strung up in here (not to mention a few paychecks fueling pro trolling)

What is the solution..well, if its causing loss of profit, then yank the whole subject matter..its a personal website and you do what you want...otherwise, the peeps that want to bicker need to tighten up and learn subtle behavior in their speech.

instead of "Your an idiot for believing X and Y!" try out "I fear for people believing X and Y because of how transparent it appears" or some such...safe effect, veiled insult, and discussion still civil

Originally posted by Klassified
What a shame the staff of ATS has to play babysitter to a bunch of spoiled adults who can't control their emotions. The staff of ATS should be bored out of their wits here because everyone behaves themselves like mature human beings. But instead, even this thread has become a war zone.

Sometimes discussions can indeed turn passionate..especially dealing with things like 9/11
I can only imagine what an internet would have been like at the gulf of tonkin (the admitted false flag op that kicked off the Vietnam war).

What many fail to realize, because the internet is still relatively new, is that intimidation does not work in discourse...so all the swearing, insults, etc...falls flat. Eloquent and calm discussions are the true power, and anyone becoming overly passionate and losing their cool typically comes off as the weak one. So, perhaps some courses in strength through words or something is in order.

Originally posted by kneverr
Prove that ATS is above taking the easy way out.

There are several threads, going back to 2005, asking that participants in the forum act like civilized adults and not immature playground bullies.

This one is more than four years old.

We've given participants many, many chances to realize it's important to be civil.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Eloquent and calm discussions are the true power, and anyone becoming overly passionate and losing their cool typically comes off as the weak one.

Well said Saturn. And it deserves to be repeated. So I did.

So, perhaps some courses in strength through words or something is in order.

Strength through words and civil discourse 101.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


These threads where the site owners have to ask people to behave are just amazing.

I mean really, take a moment and let us ask ourselves who has the risk? Do the members of ATS have risk for the site? No they do not. The site owners are at risk. Their reputations are on the line. Their credit, both personal and business are on the line.

Also, the stability of the income stream... is that the members risk....no it is not The site owners are ultimately responsible for payroll. Do the members pull payroll every month? Can there be payroll without an income stream....not for long.

So then let us ask ourselves about the advertisers and whether or not they want to be aligned with a site that has grownup members spewing hate and vitriol at each other?

[color=gold]


From what's observed it seems both the Truthers and Debunkers possess extreme compassion and a sense of mistrust and deception against them. BOTH sides seek hard to either prove that yes the United States Government can be trusted with the lives of those they care take. Or that the United States ELITES along with many other GLOBAL elites conspired to set forth a domino effect of nwo global gov. Activities which included deception on Americanaz soil and people in order to access Middle East potentials mineral precious or oil and to add military influence in that region or even more for an unknown reason. With all this ENERGY its almost going to be IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH sides to come to a logical conclusion. Which is sad because many on both sides are deep heart felt on this issue and only want closure, but cannot get closure due to fighting. If BOTH sides REALLY want to close this issues the 2 sides WILL recognize that a level of RESPECT MUST exist otherwise the issue will continue to remain stamped with KAOS energy leaving both reasons for BOTH sides to even engage this issue a void. So work together and either PROVE this was an attack or deceptive move against part of the species. Good Luck ALL in working as one on this if YOU really want closure. 1 tends to avoid the 911 threads because of the madness related, but can understand where the madness stems from.

LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA *******
NAMASTE

Mod, do you not have software that will not allow posts with certain "key" words in them? It would seem easy to add the harsh words that are being thrown around in the 9/11 forum so that when used the posters reply will not post. Am I wrong? If you do not have this, then maybe it's time to get it.
Also, I agree with some people on here that you, as the site owner, you need to take more action to keep the 9/11 forum cleaner, not that it's your fault there are immature people posting bad things, not at all, but only YOU have the power to delete what is not a positive addition to a thread discussion, noone else. Stop coddling people with warning after warning. Eliminate their posts and give a warning. 3 Strikes and your out! Please don't ever punish the masses for the actions of a few. I completely understand what your saying about the fact that you've been warning people for years, at least 2007 from what I saw, and your tired of babysitting probably. So then I would propose it's time to put the kids to bed when they act out, don't continue to give them timeouts or finger shaking warnings, take action immediately. Maybe even go as far as to ban anyone screaming that your censoring them by deleting their posts. If they dont want it deleted then they dont need to add any adjectives about anyone in the thread. You are correct that the T &C are simple, so then it should be simple to implement them with the full authority that you have at your disposal.
Send out an email to all members explaining that if you receive 3 warnings within a 30 day period your membership is revoked for 90 days, if you get 3 in a week, then revoked for 6 months, if you get 3 in a day - then it's a permanent ban. SOmething like that to me would get everyone's attention, and most of all Site Owner, YOU MUST FOLLOW THRU WITH IT!
I enjoy this site, and to not have a 9/11 forum to discuss the topic would be a tragedy.
Thanks for reading.