If Jesus didn't exist, then the Muslims are also wasting their time

Originally posted by sinthia
If Jesus didn't exist, then the Muslims are also wasting their time

Islam, like christianity, borrowed from pre-existing religions to try and bolster their claims and try and gain acceptance/converts to their way of thinking.

Islam maintains the precept that jesus was a prophet and claims that Allah is the same god as the jewish god i.e the god of abraham, while christianity does the same with the inclusion of the jewish OT in their version of the bible and the similarities between jesus an other pagan godmen. The inclusion of other religions into the new religion was just an attempt to justify the new while trying to gain more converts etc


G

Originally posted by runetang
I am aware of this. But isn't it pushing the envelope just to aggravate? You can question Jesus existence, sure. 2000 years from now, people would question your existence, should someone say "once upon a time madnessinmysoul was a person who advocated atheism on a website called abovetopsecret.", people would indeed doubt and say "wheres the evidence?" and since you weren't anyone super particularly famous, none of your works or belongings were kept, lets say hypothetically.

ah... but the problem is that all evidence for me would be from my lifetime
none of the evidence for jesus was from his... and he is SUPPOSED to have had a considerable following

you are now Jesus in the flesh. how are you going to be remembered 2000 years from now?

use a little bit of that godly wisdom to write my own religious text?

I think Jesus has a one up on you madness, because he has millions and millions of people not even questioning that he lived, gave that which he gave in teachings and in his flesh, and even that he will come flying in from the sky one day to make things alright, just because he said he would 2000 years ago. Show me a single man of this caliber on Earth today and I will concede the argument.

...ah, but the reason jesus was believed wasn't because of his caliber, but because of the marketing of the people that preached his word.

I dont even want to bust out quotes from 1st or 2nd Corinthians of Paul teaching wise, relevant things even unto this day regarding carrying oneself socially. I dont need to quote Jesus' many parables. It's just too much. And only you can want to read it. I am not going to make you. Maybe you can respect me for that.

paul the sexist?
yes, wise and relevant

well considering the buddhists are expecting the reincarnation of buddha in the flesh soon, I read, I think they'd be much disappointed if the one they picked and said was buddha refused them because he was autistic and didnt understand what he was turning down, and didnt play along like all the other young, blissful and non-understanding children that were selected in the past. this goes to the hindu traditions of revering children as incarnations of gods and goddesses.

..um, you clearly don't know buddhism. it's a very small (and non-buddhistic) sect that believes buddha will return.

well, i cant quite answer it decisively, but maybe you can help me with an unrelated question.

logical fallacy...
this time i'll let you figure out which one it is on your own.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ah... but the problem is that all evidence for me would be from my lifetime
none of the evidence for jesus was from his... and he is SUPPOSED to have had a considerable following

A considerable following that was persecuted for hundreds of years. the followers that were killed and the ones that lived in hiding and moved about? the poor followers that were a product of their lives and their religion therefore having very little to no belongings? in order for items to make it 2,000 years, its kind of like a game of statistics. Out of X number of items that were not destroyed initially in that era, only a certain number were left in the types of places or buried in the types of climates that will preserve them. And items were made much poorly than by today's standards, particularly the texts, which were all hand written on things as feeble as papyrus scrolls? And you're demanding 'where are they at?'

Where's the other half of Hadrian's Wall? the thing is gone to time like all things eventually are. My point is that you can compare it to any other figure whom is assumed by most people to have existed from a similar amount of time ago and you will come up with just as little, or less. There is no concrete proof of the existence of David, yet there is an entire nation and religion built upon his life and deeds.

What about Josephus? He writes of many, many, people that have been corroborated to exist through other evidence and is deemed credible by historians? Why would Josephus have been fooled so easily? Think about it. If you say Jesus doesn't exist, then it's like saying anyone else Josephus wrote about didn't exist. Now wouldn't that look stupid?

In 93, the Jewish historian Josephus published his work Antiquities of the Jews. The extant copies of this work, which all derive from Christian sources, even the recently recovered Arabic version, contain two passages about Jesus. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum.

en.wikipedia.org...

...ah, but the reason jesus was believed wasn't because of his caliber, but because of the marketing of the people that preached his word.

That's funny, I seem to believe in Jesus because of what Jesus said that was saved and recorded, and the events of Jesus life that were saved and recorded. Not the philosophies of his Apostles.. (until about 300 a.d.)

paul the sexist?
yes, wise and relevant

Not everything Paul said was golden. However, he did have sound advice on sexuality in this sense. He said to go without if you can, but if you cannot, its okay, you are not bad, just not as good as you can be, but God still loves you. He said to get married/find a life partner, then have as much sex as you like, and not to be a slut of a person in the meantime with any ole body. He taught to respect your own body in that sense that it is better. He said, if you are circumsized or not, it doesn't matter God still loves you. He said if you can go on the rest of your life without a partner to do so, but if you cannot, to find a worthy mate and stick with them.

In this specific context he was relevant even unto today.

..um, you clearly don't know buddhism. it's a very small (and non-buddhistic) sect that believes buddha will return.

you're right, I don't know that much about the customs and history and varying sects and all of that. I know quite a bit about the actual concept of it and of the goal. I feel it is closer to Eastern Philosophy than Religion but that is just my opinion.

logical fallacy...
this time i'll let you figure out which one it is on your own.

I was giving you a relevant example. 300 years versus 300 years. What can change in 300 years, and if the locals of an area can keep tabs on the precise location of real historic events involving real historic people that happened 300 years prior. And in that example, I use the battlefield that the nation of the United States was founded upon. To say Jesus didn't exist is to say Cornwallace was never at Yorktown despite historians writing that he was. Or that the battle was not at the location that it is said to be today. This is to show you that people get the important stuff right, and the locals of Jerusalem got it right when the showed Helen, Constantine's Mother, all of the historic locations regarding Jesus' life events that now have various shrines over them.

reply to post by sinthia

Hi sinthia, What if Moses was a Pharoah, where would we be now.

What do you think of the theory of Amenhotep the III being actually Moses instead of what you know from word of mouth from the Bible, Torah & Koran, is it possible.
Amenhotep lead his people through the desert and along the Nile out of Luxor, Egypt to another place further up the Nile about 160 klmtrs and built his temples to worship the one true GOD, this is in writing, boy, what similarities, dont you think.
Look up Tel El Armarna in Egypt. This 18th dynasty pharoah was just before Moses or he was one of the same and this is recorded on the walls, so what about it, all you Dynasty lovers, could it be true, just think if it were, then all modern man would be of the same one God and there would be no deciples but this one pharoah, whom started the one GOD theory, all of the warring factions all over the world would be killing their own brothers, wow, powerful thought, ha. gwhint

reply to post by runetang


i've replied to these points time and again and don't feel like responding in detail, dredge up my old responses if you want that.

the persecution point is moot, we have plenty from times of persecution
josephus is suspected to be a later insertion
tacitcus is too late and could also be an insertion

you believe in jesus because of what he said?
alright, which of his different last words do you like?
...if they got something as important as his last words wrong... don't you think there's something off?

paul was also a homophobe... i forgot that.
sure, paul had some ok ideas (and honestly, who doesn't?)... but i think i'd rather just disregard him and go for people that had similar ideas decades (even centuries) before him without the sexist and homophobic stuff attached.

alright, crash course in buddhism for you with a single quote from the dalai lama:

If they don't stand up to experimentation BUDDHA'S OWN WORDS MUST BE REJECTED

(emphasis added)

i'll give you more time to figure out your logical fallacy.

Moses might have been a pharoah, anything is possible. Another take on the topic is this.
Lucifer/Satan/Bad guy was ejected from heaven, and later mankind is born. In the Garden of Eden, the serpent tempts Eve and the fall takes place. All the religions are formed, but the one whose nemesis is Satan is Christianity. Satan has had since BEFORE man existed to prepare to try and prevent his ultimate annhiliation by using incredible forsight. He set up the Pagan religions, the Egyptian religions etc so as to be able to discredit Christianity at some future time - as all parties were probably aware of judgement day.
In current times it is fashionable to say that Christianity sprang from astronomical pagan traditions, but maybe, just maybe those very same pagan religions were created to discredit the Christ.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Lol. madness, regardless of if you think I have a logical fallacy, and dodge all my examples with "logical fallacy", that is a cop out. And I can see right through it.

Explain to me what the difference is in 300 years vs 300 years, 2 locations of extreme importance with locals there, and in both of these, the locals keep the exact locations noted dilligently. One is the battlefield, one is the places where the later events of the Gospel took place. WHY can one people get it right, but the others not get it right, and just make up all these places that events never even happened at?

Whether or not you can "out debate me" , ultimately Jesus existed. I know it, most people know it. Hell, most Atheists know it and it doesn't matter to them. Jews know it and dont care it doesnt apply to them. But only you go out of your way to say he never existed. Where is your proof that he never existed? Where is your proof that these writings, the Bible, are all untrue?

Show me THAT, and we will have an equal debate. I'm trying to prove Jesus lived, you aren't trying to disprove he lived, just telling me I am incorrect. You haven't posted anything significant that would convince a single soul that Jesus never existed.

King Herod existed.. because the remains of the stuff he built is there, and in the Jewish records it is written there. But .. the guy he tried to kill as a baby, oh no .. he didnt exist. Pontus Pilate? He existed, according to roman chronicles. The High Priest, I forgot his name, he is listed in the Jewish record as well, the head Pharisee. Yet Jesus, the figure of which all of these proven figures revolve around and are famous for, didn't exist.

suuuure madness.. that is complete madness.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by runetang
right, Jesus didn't exist according to the Zeitgeist groupies,

...i'm not a zeitgeist groupie. i actually have been saying that the existence of jesus is questionable for quite a while now, prior to the release of zeitgeist

amen (no pun intended). Anyone who has done even mild research into the ancient religions, or has even read Joseph Campbell's work (which is by no means anti-religion, or CT related in any way) will have realized the similarities between all the supposed prophets and gods.

I'm confused, but I manage to get by.

reply to post by rockets red glare


No, the profit Mohamed recognized Jesus Christ as one of God's messenger.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

Yes, I've also been wondering where this 'Three Universal Prophets' thing comes from. I've not heard it before:

Surah 2:136
Say: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them, And to Him do we submit."

As for rejecting something that doesn't stand up to experimentation, that is not exactly limited to Buddhism. If Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, phrenology, dark matter cosmology, whatever- doesn't stand up to experimentation, it should be rejected. I doubt anyone will disagree with that.

reply to post by sinthia


Jesus existed. The proof of his existence has been written down in the Holy Scriptures. The TORAH, GOSPEL and HOLY QUR'AN contains account of how he came to be, the conception of Mary, and his teachings are also recorded. He was the messiah sent to the Children of Israel as testified by the Holy Qur'an, the final Testament to mankind. These three books are the witnesses that Jesus existed, God's words are sufficient witness. God said so, so it must be, end of story.

Your second premise is likewise faulty, if Jesus didn't exist, Muslims are wasting their time. How can this be? The Muslims believe that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and Muhammad is the messenger of God, this is their key to salvation, not the return of Jesus.

The return of Jesus will be to testify against mankind for corrupting his gospel, and renew his message of the Worship of One God. The Muslims already believe in the UNITY of God, and the benefit they will have from his coming is that they will be proven to be true, that the religion Jesus established is the same one that the Prophet Muhammad did.

042.013 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

Originally posted by sinthia
If we are to believe the notion that Jesus didn't exist, and that he was mearly a symbol for the story of the solar year (a ridiculous idea if you actually look into it), then the muslim people must be wasting their time assuming that Jesus will return on judgement day. Just thought i'd mention it

The vast majority of people on this planet are wasting their time

Its not waisting your time to have faith and have it guide you to a more promising and moral kinda of life

Originally posted by bugs_n_recovery
Its not waisting your time to have faith and have it guide you to a more promising and moral kinda of life

There are far better ways than Judeo-Christianity....

The reason you all dont have your proof that anything actually existed in your refrences,like about jesus and god,and how the world was created is actually simple. You cant understand his language because you are from you father the devil. If your father was god ,then you would understand ,he would prove it to you.IN PRIVATE, he would make you fully sure that he is real.Things would happen to you,like you pray about somthing and that very moment your prayer is answered. You ask god to turn off a light and he does it for you.Thats proof. You see he dosent WANT to prove it to you non belivers,he doesent OWE you anything.YOU OWE HIM! Hes alreay done his proving,and look at you all how shamefull that you still deny him! He will unleash his wrath upon you,and although you are mocking him now,you will be crying for forgiveness later.You see even reading my post there is still some part of you that wonders if he exists,well i hate to tell you this,but unless you start following his commandements and uplift your FAITH ,your soul will not be spared. God tells us about all of you mockers,and non belivers ,and that lets me know that the prophesy is being fulfilled and we are just one day closer to his arrival.Truth be told i love all of you and i hope you have a change of heart ,those 'facts' you speak of are here from the devil to sway you away from god ,as it has,you see we are here to CHOOSE good or evil.You on here are choosing evil until i came Im chooseing good. You all dont see the evil untill you belive in god and try your best to do good all of the time,and then you will see the devils desperate and pathetic attemps to turn you back to evil. See you at judgement day!

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by sinthia

 

Jesus existed. The proof of his existence has been written down in the Holy Scriptures. The TORAH, GOSPEL and HOLY QUR'AN contains account of how he came to be, the conception of Mary, and his teachings are also recorded. He was the messiah sent to the Children of Israel as testified by the Holy Qur'an, the final Testament to mankind. These three books are the witnesses that Jesus existed, God's words are sufficient witness. God said so, so it must be, end of story.

Your second premise is likewise faulty, if Jesus didn't exist, Muslims are wasting their time. How can this be? The Muslims believe that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and Muhammad is the messenger of God, this is their key to salvation, not the return of Jesus.

The return of Jesus will be to testify against mankind for corrupting his gospel, and renew his message of the Worship of One God. The Muslims already believe in the UNITY of God, and the benefit they will have from his coming is that they will be proven to be true, that the religion Jesus established is the same one that the Prophet Muhammad did.

042.013 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

Jesus existed. The proof of his existence has been written down in the Holy Scriptures. The TORAH, GOSPEL and HOLY QUR'AN contains account of how he came to be, the conception of Mary, and his teachings are also recorded. He was the messiah sent to the Children of Israel as testified by the Holy Qur'an, the final Testament to mankind. These three books are the witnesses that Jesus existed, God's words are sufficient witness. God said so, so it must be, end of story.

Text

There was proof of Jesus as witnesses by different ideologies and cultures of the time. The Gospels were written by people who actually saw Jesus and spoke to him so it can not be as currupt as the Qu'ran says they are and only the Qu'ran has no realtime witnesses of Jesus whist it decides to change many Biblical facts about him.

Your second premise is likewise faulty, if Jesus didn't exist, Muslims are wasting their time. How can this be? The Muslims believe that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and Muhammad is the messenger of God, this is their key to salvation, not the return of Jesus.

Text

You don't have to be a Muslim to believe in one God or any God, if that was the case then the Middle East should be free to tollerate all religions of the world without persecution, the same with hinduism as it should tollerate all religions too and the best way to show that is to seperate religion from politics but the Qu'ran does not allow that as a general rule.

The return of Jesus will be to testify against mankind for corrupting his gospel, and renew his message of the Worship of One God. The Muslims already believe in the UNITY of God, and the benefit they will have from his coming is that they will be proven to be true, that the religion Jesus established is the same one that the Prophet Muhammad did.

Text

Christians and Muslims are divided by that and we will have to see who shows up in yellow and who shows up in white to be sure. At least the Gospels have a sense of order in the writing as intended, the Quaran has no real chronological explanation of anything or depth which the Gospels have in what actually occured but speaks in the language of denial of past events as there are no witnesses to the actual events of the past but the Bible it self in writing. Take away the Bible and people would not know what the Qu'ran is speaking about.

people need to understand...... if there are several brands of bibles and it is sacred (apparently) so they can not change the wording, at school, the teacher has a different bible to us and it is worded differently. Also we have proven evolution and have proven dinosaurs existance and in the bible there isnt any dinosaurs and apparently god made us... thats telling you something!!!

Jesus is the big time religion in the west because that's what we grew up with. If you would have been born "over there" you would be sitting in a Mosque or a Temple or believing in whatever gods your fathers told you about. The inquasistion was used to torture and kill anybody who didn't see it the Churches way at the time and they used said tactics to gain control of the masses, (IMO) and they pretty much wiped out the competition. (I don't recall Popes or Nuns being mentioned in the Bible, so where did those jobs come from.) Long story short, no matter what religion you believe in, we all know right from wrong. Stealing,murder and such is wrong in any culture. your going to get judged by what you knew, God likely won't send people to Hell because they went to the wrong church. (Or Temple or Mosque or whatever.)