CNN airs story about the Mystery Jet over Washington on 911 today 12/1/07

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Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

 

O'Brien does not say he flew 4 miles south of the mall he says the jet was about 4 miles away.

I know that O'Brien didn't say he flew 4 miles south of the mall. But he did say that he flew south of the mall and your depiction of the flight path puts him directly over the mall.

South side of the mall IS over the mall.

There is no logic in suggesting that he would use the mall as a point of reference at all let alone say he was on the south side of it if he was where the RADES data says he was.

The mall is a tiny blip on that satellite image so to place his plane a blip further south doesn't change the point in the least.

Regardless he says he traveled "north and west" after taking off from Andrews and had a view of the mall.

North and west is a vague description.

In what universe?

Last I checked north meant north and west meant west. It's a perfectly specific description that can only be considered "vague" if you refuse to believe it.

According to the radar data he did fly north and west, that's exactly what the radar data shows.

Excuse me? Are you not familiar with basic cardinal points? The only time the radar data shows him going north before his interaction with the plane is when he took off from the runway and then it has him immediately going SOUTH.

Not north. He was referring to north and west in regards to which way he actually traveled....not which way the runway was facing.

He NEVER said he went south at all. There is no way you can reconcile the RADES data with his statements yet here you are twisting reality anyway.

If you look at the official flight path you can clearly see that he was within 5 miles of the mall for several minutes. Are you under the impression that he wouldn't be able to see the mall from 5 miles away at an altitude of 3000 feet?

The fact that it may be "possible" to see the mall has nothing to do with the fact that he SAYS he traveled north and west and not south and west like the RADES data shows.

In fact that is completely opposite.

Plus the notion that he would describe himself as being on the south side of the mall with a "beautiful view" of it does not indicate that he would be over Arlington.

You are forgetting another MAJOR point.

He claims that he did not know at first that the explosion was coming from the Pentagon because he was too far away from it at the time to be able to tell.

Clearly he would NOT be able to see the mall or have a beautiful view of it if he was on the RADES flight path and couldn't even tell that the explosion was coming from the Pentagon.

You are not analyzing his all of his statements. You are twisting his words to make them seem ambiguous when they are not.

ALL of that is irreconcilable with the RADES data.

How do you figure? He was flying an airplane not driving a car. It was a clear, cloudless day with unlimited visibility.

He was too far away from the explosion to be able to even tell it came from the Pentagon.

How do you reconcile that with the RADES flight path on such a clear cloudless day with "unlimited" visibility?

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

The fact that so few described an American Airlines jet is also rather telling.

Telling?

What does this "tell" you?

It tells me the 4 "Pentacon - Smoking Gun" eyewitnesses, that were in "the best position possible" that were "interviewed on site", are at the very best.....unreliable.

Yet the testimony of these 4 unreliable eyewitnesses provides the foundation of your smoking gun evidence that AA77 did not crash at the Pentagon.

Would you say that any of these statements are untrue?

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

Excuse me? Are you not familiar with basic cardinal points? The only time the radar data shows him going north before his interaction with the plane is when he took off from the runway and then it has him immediately going SOUTH.

In which universe is it possible to change your direction of travel from northerly to southerly by turning to the left, without at some point travelling in a westerly direction?

Originally posted by darkbluesky


Would you say that any of these statements are untrue?

They are completely untrue and rather deceptive.

You do not have to rely on Lagasse for the north side claim.

Even if you choose to throw away his entire testimony we still have Robert, Chad, Edward, Sean, and Levi while nobody directly refutes them.

That's why it's proof. It has been corroborated.

We should expect there to be inaccuracies in ALL of their accounts since they are fallible eyewitnesses but the fact that they all independently saw the plane on the north side proves this particular claim to be accurate.

Originally posted by darkbluesky

In which universe is it possible to change your direction of travel from northerly to southerly by turning to the left, without at some point travelling in a westerly direction?

What does that have to do with where O'Brien said he flew and what he saw on 9/11?

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

South side of the mall IS over the mall.

It is? Do you honestly believe that? If he would've said that he flew over the mall and not south of the mall, then I would believe it.

There is no logic in suggesting that he would use the mall as a point of reference at all let alone say he was on the south side of it if he was where the RADES data says he was.

Yes there is. When he departed Andrews and turned west, he would be pointing directly at the mall. Besides that, the mall would be the most recognizable part of Washington, DC.

In what universe?

In the aviation universe. If he was being specific he would've said we departed at 330 and turned west to the heading of 230. Have you ever heard of an air traffic controller tell a departing aircraft to turn north and west and leave it at that?

and then it has him immediately going SOUTH.

Not north. He was referring to north and west in regards to which way he actually traveled....not which way the runway was facing.

He NEVER said he went south at all. There is no way you can reconcile the RADES data with his statements yet here you are twisting reality anyway.

He never went south. He went westsouthwest and maybe southwest, but never close to south.
He said North and West. Not northwest.
We must be looking at different radar data because the one I'm looking at does not have him going South.

Plus the notion that he would describe himself as being on the south side of the mall with a "beautiful view" of it does not indicate that he would be over Arlington.

That may be true. It definitely does not indicate that he flew directly over the south side of the mall either.

He claims that he did not know at first that the explosion was coming from the Pentagon because he was too far away from it at the time to be able to tell.

I know that. He did see the explosion though. And then he continued flying to where he saw the explosion until he saw the smoke plume if he didn't have it in sight the entire time. He didn't have to ask for a vector to get to the crash site.

Clearly he would NOT be able to see the mall or have a beautiful view of it if he was on the RADES flight path and couldn't even tell that the explosion was coming from the Pentagon.

That doesn't make any sense at all. He was talking about having a great view of the mall when he flew to the south of it before he was ever aware of flight 77. He was talking about not being able to see the Pentagon after he encountered the airplane and turned back around to follow it.

He was too far away from the explosion to be able to even tell it came from the Pentagon.

Again, after he flew over the Potomac River and turned back East to follow flight 77.

reply to post by Boone 870


You must be looking at something completely different.

Here is the 84 RADES data depicting the C-130 flight path.



Under no circumstances could that be considered "north" and "west" with a beautiful view of the mall.

It's southwest with a beautiful view of Alexandria. North would NOT be a part of what he described about which way he traveled at all just because the runway faced that way. No way. South is not north and north is not south so cut it with the reverse meaning power of suggestion nonsense.

In fact that isn't even flying over DC or heading towards the mall at all.


You can not suggest that he would have a beautiful view of the mall yet not be able to see the explosion come from the Pentagon.

What you are failing to realize is that according to the RADES data he was just as close to the Pentagon at the time of alleged impact as he EVER was to the mall.

So if he was able to have a "beautiful view" of the mall he would have had to have a "beautiful view" of the plane hitting the Pentagon because of the similar distance and that was supposed to be what he was deliberately trying to follow.

But he had completely lost sight of the plane and couldn't see the Pentagon!

Sorry but no matter how you slice it his statements are 100% irreconcilable with the RADES data.

But it's not just O'Brien.

ABC news, Colin Scoggins on the NORAD tapes, FAA deputy director Monte Belger, and the new Potomac River witness we found ALSO prove the RADES data fraudulent.

You've got a lot more compass spinning to do.






[edit on 4-12-2007 by Craig Ranke CIT]

originally posted by Craig Ranke
You've got a lot more compass spinning to do.

Let's start with that. The map you posted is not oriented north.

The runway at Andrews Air Force Base is 010 magnetic and 360 true North. Rotate the map to true North and the flight path gets closer to West.

It's southwest with a beautiful view of Alexandria.

Doubtful, he was climbing as he flew toward Alexandria. That means he can't see over the nose.

North would NOT be a part of what he described about which way he traveled at all just because the runway faced that way. No way.

Apparently you're wrong.

South is not north and north is not south so cut it with the reverse meaning power of suggestion nonsense.

Craig, you are the one saying that he flew south, not me. He took off to the north and then turned west. He did not take off to the south and then turn west.

In fact that isn't even flying over DC or heading towards the mall at all

I'm glad that we agree that he didn't fly over Washington, DC or the mall.

You can not suggest that he would have a beautiful view of the mall yet not be able to see the explosion come from the Pentagon.

What you are failing to realize is that according to the RADES data he was just as close to the Pentagon at the time of alleged impact as he EVER was to the mall.

So if he was able to have a "beautiful view" of the mall he would have had to have a "beautiful view" of the plane hitting the Pentagon because of the similar distance and that was supposed to be what he was deliberately trying to follow.

Let's pretend, just for a minute, that the radar data is correct. Put yourself in the airplane and try to imagine why he would have a better view while flying to the west than he would have while flying to the east at 9:30 a.m.

ABC news, Colin Scoggins on the NORAD tapes, FAA deputy director Monte Belger, and the new Potomac River witness we found ALSO prove the RADES data fraudulent.

There's no need to include the testimony of others when you don't understand the flight path of the C-130. If you think that O'Brien flew to the northwest over the mall, then the point is moot.

Originally posted by Boone 870

originally posted by Craig Ranke
You've got a lot more compass spinning to do.

Let's start with that. The map you posted is not oriented north.

The runway at Andrews Air Force Base is 010 magnetic and 360 true North. Rotate the map to true North and the flight path gets closer to West.

Prove it, show the difference, and demonstrate how the point is changed.

If you can not you are not demonstrating my claims incorrect.

It's southwest with a beautiful view of Alexandria.

Doubtful, he was climbing as he flew toward Alexandria. That means he can't see over the nose.

Point still stands. It is not a beautiful view of the mall and he would not use the mall as a point of reference.

North would NOT be a part of what he described about which way he traveled at all just because the runway faced that way. No way.

Apparently you're wrong.

I am right, O'Brien is right, Monte Belger is right, ABC news is right, Scoggins on the NORAD tapes is right, the charter boat captain is right.

You and the RADES data are wrong.

South is not north and north is not south so cut it with the reverse meaning power of suggestion nonsense.

Craig, you are the one saying that he flew south, not me. He took off to the north and then turned west. He did not take off to the south and then turn west.

The RADES data says he flew southwest not me, and NOT O'Brien who says he traveled north and west which also means northwest but it could NOT be southwest which is what the RADES data shows.

It's a simple, basic, and crystal clear contradiction that you are trying desperately to convolute and spin.

In fact that isn't even flying over DC or heading towards the mall at all

I'm glad that we agree that he didn't fly over Washington, DC or the mall.

See? Pure deception on your part to confuse the discussion.

You know perfectly well I was referring to the RADES data that contradicts what he says.

There's no need to include the testimony of others when you don't understand the flight path of the C-130. If you think that O'Brien flew to the northwest over the mall, then the point is moot.

That is what he SAYS.

You simply refuse to take his words for what they are and ignore the FACT that according to you.....he would be able to see the plane hit the Pentagon from where the RADES data says he was at during alleged impact time with "unlimited visibility".

But he didn't.

This alone proves your entire point wrong.

Plus the fact that you would simply dismiss all of that other hard evidence proving the RADES data fraudulent (it's not in regards to the C-130) as "moot" simply demonstrates that you have no interest in scrutinizing the evidence at all and will simply support the government data regardless.

ALL of those sources fatally contradict the RADES and NTSB data.

This is fact.




[edit on 4-12-2007 by Craig Ranke CIT]

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

Prove it, show the difference, and demonstrate how the point is changed.

I don't know how. Just because I can't demonstrate it on the computer doesn't make me wrong. Anyone can get on Google Earth and see that the runway points north and realize that the map you posted is not oriented to the north.

Point still stands. It is not a beautiful view of the mall and he would not use the mall as a point of reference.

In your opinion it's not a beautiful view. Why wouldn't he use the mall as a reference? The mall is 2 miles long and has a big building at the end of it called the capital. One of the most recognizable buildings in the world.

There's no need to include the testimony of others when you don't understand the flight path of the C-130. If you think that O'Brien flew to the northwest over the mall, then the point is moot.

That is what he SAYS.

That is not what he said. He said that he flew north and west and on the south side of the mall. He did not say that he flew northwest over the mall.

You simply refuse to take his words for what they are and ignore the FACT that according to you.....he would be able to see the plane hit the Pentagon from where the RADES data says he was at during alleged impact time with "unlimited visibility".

But he didn't.

He could've easily seen the mall from the flight path that he took because the sun was to his back. After he turn around and headed east, the sun was at his face.

O'Brien stated that he was having a hard time tracking the aircraft. He also mentioned morning haze and reflections from the Potomac River and the runway at Reagan national. All of which happened after he turned back to the east into the sun.











[edit on 4-12-2007 by Boone 870]

Originally posted by Boone 870

In your opinion it's not a beautiful view. Why wouldn't he use the mall as a reference? The mall is 2 miles long and has a big building at the end of it called the capital. One of the most recognizable buildings in the world.

But according to the RADES data that is NOT WHERE HE FLEW.

That is not what he said. He said that he flew north and west and on the south side of the mall. He did not say that he flew northwest over the mall.

North and west is northwest not southwest. Plus you are not analyzing all of his statements. He clarified further with this:

"Our first sighting of the AA flight was just after we had gone by the mall westbound."

There is NO WAY you can spin that to be reconcilable with the RADES data.

No way.

He could've easily seen the mall from the flight path that he took because the sum was to his back. After he turn around and headed east, the sun was at his face.

O'Brien stated that he was having a hard time tracking the aircraft. He also mentioned morning haze and reflections from the Potomac River and the runway at Reagan national. All of which happened after he turned back to the east into the sun.

What does that have to do with not seeing the plane hit the Pentagon?

According to the RADES data he was facing northeast at the alleged impact time. More north than east.

If you analyze his statements closely he turned back around east AFTER passing by the south side of the mall headed westbound (he essentially did a U-turn.)

His statements match with this.

Yellow line: C-130
Red line: the closer to true flight path of the decoy jet (although with an exaggerated loop).



This makes infinitely more sense with all of his statements.

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

North and west is northwest not southwest. Plus you are not analyzing all of his statements. He clarified further with this:

"Our first sighting of the AA flight was just after we had gone by the mall westbound."

There is NO WAY you can spin that to be reconcilable with the RADES data.

I've read his statements. Everything that he has said, fits with the radar data. You seem to believe that he could not have had a "beautiful view" from 5 miles away. I couldn't disagree more with you. It would be very easy to see the mall from 5 miles away.

You keep highlighting "westbound", westbound is a vague description of the direction he was traveling. Rotate the map and you will be able that he was heading westbound .

The map you posted, with the red and yellow line, has the C-130 turning left. What makes you think he turned left. I don't recall O'Brien stating that he lost sight of the airplane after it passed in front of him.

reply to post by Boone 870


Now it is 100% clear that you are in denial.

"Our first sighting of the AA flight was just after we had gone by the mall westbound."

There is nothing vague about westbound AFTER the mall coming from Andrews and there is nothing vague about traveling north and then west (northwest) which is opposite southwest.

The RADES data does NOT have him going westbound past the mall at his first interaction with the plane or at all for that matter. There is no way you can honestly say that it does.

It's cool man.

You have made it clear that to you northwest is southwest and westbound is vague and that O'Brien's direct quotes don't matter.

It's clear you will refuse to believe O'Brien or ANY of the multiple sources we have contradicting the RADES and NTSB data and that you will support the government story regardless of the evidence.

Have a great day.

[edit on 4-12-2007 by Craig Ranke CIT]

Don't forget how Colin Scoggins reported the plane being 6 miles southeast of the white house!

From BBC Documentary:

Scoggins: Just to report, be advised the aircraft is 4-6 miles SE (southeast) of the White House.

ATC: 6 miles SOUTHEAST of the White House?

Scoggins: Yup

ATC: He's moving away?

That is COMPLETELY irreconcilable with the NTSB flight path of AA77 but matches perfectly with where the charter boat captain saw the plane approach from.

I suppose now you are going to say that "southeast" is "vague".




[edit on 4-12-2007 by Craig Ranke CIT]

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

The RADES data does NOT have him going westbound past the mall at his first interaction with the plane or at all for that matter. There is no way you can honestly say that it does.

He didn't say he was going westbound past the mall at his first interaction with the plane, he said it was after he passed the mall. Have you looked at the radar data diagram with it oriented North?

The flight path diagram you posted with the red and yellow flight paths is wrong. You are assuming that he turned left to follow flight 77. Can you provide any evidence that he turned left?

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

 

The RADES data does NOT have him going westbound past the mall at his first interaction with the plane or at all for that matter. There is no way you can honestly say that it does.

He didn't say he was going westbound past the mall at his first interaction with the plane, he said it was after he passed the mall.

You just said the same thing.

He said he was headed "westbound" and was "just passed the mall" when he first saw the plane.

That means he was headed westbound just passed the mall.

How can you deny his exact words while repeating his exact words?

This statement is irreconcilable with the RADES data.

Have you looked at the radar data diagram with it oriented North?

It IS oriented north.

Pull it up on google earth, yahoo maps, or mapquest . It's oriented north.

If you are suggesting that every map in existence is wrong you have to prove it and demonstrate how.

The flight path diagram you posted with the red and yellow flight paths is wrong. You are assuming that he turned left to follow flight 77. Can you provide any evidence that he turned left?

Whether he turned left or right to make the U-turn headed back east after traveling west is completely irrelevant.

The contradiction still stands either way.

The RADES data has him nowhere near the mall, flying significantly south EAST of the mall during his first interaction of the plane.

Black is white, white is black.

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

How can you deny his exact words while repeating his exact words?

I wasn't repeating his exact words, I was repeating yours.

You said this,

The RADES data does NOT have him going westbound past the mall at his first interaction with the plane or at all for that matter.

When using the word past in this context, I took it as that you meant next to.

O'Brien said;"Our first sighting of the AA flight was just after we had gone by the mall westbound."

In that context I understand it as, after he passed the mall.

It IS oriented north.

No it's not. Look at the picture with the RADES data. If the map is oriented North then the runway would be parallel with the side of the picture. It's not.

Whether he turned left or right to make the U-turn headed back east after traveling west is completely irrelevant.

No it's not. If he would've made his 180° turn to the left, he would have lost sight of flight 77.
If flight 77 flew from his left to his right, why would he turn left to follow it?

Black is white, white is black.

According to you, north and west is the new South.

Boone is right. The runways would have to be turned about another 10 degrees to the right to be N/S. Andrews runway headings are 010/190 magnetic, which would put them at 360/180 true.

Originally posted by Boone 870


O'Brien said;"Our first sighting of the AA flight was just after we had gone by the mall westbound."

In that context I understand it as, after he passed the mall.

Uh huh.

While traveling westbound.

This is irreconcilable with the RADES data as according to it he would have had his first interaction with the plane EAST of the mall (in other words he wouldn't have "passed it" yet since he was coming from the east) and traveling southwest (more south than west) far away from the mall.

He was flying over DC dude.

This is what he describes.

Of course it makes perfect sense since we have plenty of official (and unofficial) data (NORAD, Monte Belger, and witnesses) showing that the decoy jet also flew over DC before it looped around south to the Pentagon.