Shine some light on me

Originally posted by gwhint
Thanks For you honest answer but you must be right with respect to
"to much paper work" to punish a dispicable person, his crime was extreme and his criminal punishment in court did not fit the crime "house arrest" wow, no need for paperwork, right, small crime on paper.

Let me try to understand what you're saying. You're saying you know of a person who is a Mason who committed a crime. This person was convicted in court, but you feel they received a light sentence because the judge was a Mason as well?

First of all, if the person was really convicted of a crime (what crime was it?) it would surprise me if that person's lodge didn't expell them from the fraternity. I know in my own area, there was a guy several years ago that murdered his wife, and he was obviously expelled pretty fast. We try to keep bad people out, but unfortunately sometimes you get some.

Now, I have to ask the question.. how do you know that the criminal and the judge are Masons? Why was there not a jury trial for this crime, whatever the crime was?

From my understanding, if a person is convicted of a crime, they dishonoured the teachings taught in the lodge. No matter how many times you hear the Masonic temple is a place where "Frat Brothers" get together and have tea and talk about monday night football, this is a blatant attempt to lead you down a path to a dead end. I call this the "Dumb-Dumb Factor".

There are morals, and values being taught behind these walls with no windows. If some Masons stop trying to claim the order is simply a fraternity, and start telling the truth (There are two forces that control men, Truth and Falsehood), more Men will find interest in the teachings and this would solve many of the membership problems as well as the crazy accusations of devil worship being practice in the lodges.

I am sure if this Mason did commit a crime, his Masonic Brothers would also bring justice. His presence will not be welcomed in the lodge. But there are some lodges who have different morals. There are some lodges that continues to instruct falsehood, and these teachings are reflected on it's members.

reply to post by gwhint


Thanks for the question. I cant answer for the society, I can only answer from the point of view of my own observations within my own lodge...which has zero tolerance for criminal members. Before anyone is even admitted, a background check is done to make sure the person is one of integrity, good report and honesty.

We´ve seen what happens when there is a black sheep amongst the society: His deeds are seen, by the public, as representative of the entire society. This is no good, of course.

If there is anything I have learned from the masonic texts I have to memorize, then its the value of being as honest and upright in word and actions as possible. In my lodge they have us memorize and repeat this stuff to no end.

[edit on 29-11-2007 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating


Thanks Skyfloating for your opinion and it is the same one that I grew up believing from such an organization, My bloodlines most likely were members at one point in time but all my relatives in line from my father and mother are now dead and gone, including my parents, so I will never know if my family were members. Your Sacred Society is what I would call the Rock of Gibralter when it comes to America but some members have gotten away from your teachings.
As far as this member in question, he was made a member in a NE state long ago and he moved to the state that I happened to also move into, he was my ex father-in-law and this is how I knew he was a member, when we found out about his guilt we were shocked and he had already shifted his worldly wealth into another relatives name from another state, complements of his selected Lawyer, so no one could sue and get anything out of him, my lawyer told me this. His lawyer also had the power to be able to wait for the right Judge to sit on the bench to reside over the case. His son is in Law Enforcement and so it made sense to have certain people in the court room to help in his sentencing to be reduced to just a "house arrest" punishment, so with this in mind how would his Sect from the original state ever know of his situation. I am sorry if I could be assuming alot but it just made sense that all were connected for him to get off lightly.
Now you want to know his crime, I have had to endure this pain for the past 20 years since I found out. This exfather-in-law molested my children (his grandkids) and not for a sexual arousal but for trying to get to me in such a way as to force me to get out of his family. Their belief was that if I married their daughter and took her away from them then they would see to it that I would suffer somehow someway in my life time for causing them pain, wow, I thought at the time of my marriage to their daughter what could they do to me, I thought nothing, right.
Wrong, they let time take its coarse and when my daughter turned 5 it started and it went on for 3 years of his molesting. I questioned that he did the same to my son at the age of 2 but I will never know because my son stays silent.
My kids hate them and choose to not go around them and even their mom helped get her father off. I was told by the lawyer at that time that I wasnt allowed in court because I was showing violent tendancies, daa, wouldnt you.
So after it was all said and done he got house sentence, wow, for such a horrible crime. When his life got back to normal under house arrest he and his wife set out to destroy me and succeeded in doing so. I was driven out without a penny and I lost all my material values in my life, like the house the cars the furniture and my kids youth, DIVORCE, I lost it all.
Its taken many years to face the fact of trying to forgive and forget for my kids sake and they have moved on, but we still suffer from the thought he did it out of plain evilness to make me suffer. Recently we were warned to not try to hassle him in the new town he is living in by telling the town he is a child molester living in the neighborhood or we could be arrested for Harrassment, so you tell me he must have some sort of power and connections, right.
I have never brought up this subject to anyone because of the pain I feel while thinking about how he got away with his crime and I ended up paying for it all, so you see why I lay some sort of blame on the Masons and the fact, he and his wife's blood lines go back only as far as Ellis Islands refugees in the 1800's and mine are from the founding fathers, so I feel cheated being an American. Thanks for letting me get it off my chest and maybe I will feel better about it, we shall see and please dont send a hit squad to finish me off, we have suffered enough from this crime. gwhint

Wow. Where to begin?

Originally posted by gwhint

Thanks For you honest answer but you must be right with respect to
"to much paper work" to punish a dispicable person, his crime was extreme and his criminal punishment in court did not fit the crime "house arrest" wow, no need for paperwork, right, small crime on paper.

Do not take my answer out of context. My original comment means that - just like in real life - a masonic trial is a very formal and important matter. Do you think that it would be a good idea in the courts of law to be able to hold trials without all the current required paperwork? Documentation is key when ensuring procedural justice. When all the facts are basically laid out before the trial (like in many real court cases), the outcome is fairly certain. There is nothing sinister going on here, just the reality that masons carry out member conduct issues with a sense of justice and fairness. Any mason that commits a crime that required a criminal court trial and is found guilty will be expelled. They might also be expelled even if they are found not guilty.

Originally posted by gwhint
I have been living with this thought that if there is a God then for sure this criminal will pay in his afterlife, but in terms of justice and the American way, he got off lightly, why, because his son is a member and the lawyer is a member and the judge is a member of such a distinguished Society, oh well.

You are, of course, free to think whatever you wish - but the reality is that masonic affiliations play no role in court trials. Masonic judges can and do punish their brethren regardless of their status as a mason. The fraternity puts itself as last in line before a wide variety of things - law, family, and religion comes first.

Originally posted by gwhint Sorry if I am negative towards your society and I know for a fact the Masons have done so many good things for America from our humble beginnings and without them there may not have been an America.
My forefathers paid dearly and are based on the blood lost from not giving up and achieving glory from fighting throughout history, starting back to the Mayflower landings and into the settlements for our colonies, my forefathers fought in the French & Indian War, Revolutionary War against the English, Civil War both north and south, even soldiers from my same family killing each other for their own cause,1812, WW1, WW11, etc.
Your Masons Society was there fighting in all these conflicts as well, side by side with my family but, somewhere along the way my clan must have refused to join or just were never asked to join, who knows?

If you search hard enough for evil, you will find it in the most mundane things. That you find it does not mean such evil exists, simply that the mind is so desperate to find answers that it literally comes up with characterizations of masonry that are invalid and not true in fact.

Further, masonic affiliation can be family based for some but for many no one else in their family is a mason. If your family was not "invited" it is only because until recently masons never extended invitations (and even now it is extremely rare and in my opinion seen as distasteful). Masonry is not for everyone. Joining the fraternity does nothing except to express your desire to become a better person through the venues masonry offers. But masonry is only one avenue to be a better man, there are many other options.

The fun continues...

Originally posted by gwhint
My moral values complement my vast Technical Science career and I probably would have been a very good member to your Society, but I would have been banned by dissagreaing with some rule that would have been forced on me to uphold, I use logic & common sense on all of my judgement calls. Thanks for responding so quickly as well, you must be a higher order to be able to make your oun decisions and respond,very good. I would tell yyou more about this case if you want it but you need to stay safe, so its ok. gwhint

Your job skills have no bearing on your value to the fraternity. Nor does your wealth, class, creed, or sexual preference. The only thing that matters to the fraternity is that you put your trust in God and seek light. In what God you trust and how you seek light is up to you, but the fraternity does insist you do so.

Masonry is in its very essence logical and rational. If you truly used logic and common sense, you would not be so harshly judging an organization you do seem to know little about. As for being in a "higher order" - I am a simple Master Mason, and a 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite. But the highest degree in masonry is Master Mason - there are no higher orders. It only makes sense that I can make my own decisions and respond, because masonry does not control its members. We can (and do) say what we like.

Sorry, double post!

[edit on 29-11-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply to post by gwhint


Thanks for sharing. It would be inappropriate for me to say "hey, you are just assuming, thats all". What do I know about the ongoings in your area? Nothing. On the other hand, dont mix the deeds of one person up with the integrity of an entire organization, of course.

I highly doubt that anyone, mason or non-mason would support child molestors and misuse his position of authority to pressure you. But as I said...theres always a possibility. But even IF there were some weird things going on on his behalf...your personal health would probably benefit the most with forgive and forget. The guy is punished enough with his bad character as it is. And if you believe in metaphysical justice (karma or Gods judgement), he will get what he deserves.

reply to post by gwhint


I am sorry that you had to endure this, but there is NO reason to blame the Masons. Do you also blame yourself because your ex father-in-law was a man, and you are too? Of course you don't. The characteristics of an individual do not only have no bearing on all people that have those characteristics, but they usually play very little role in the actions of the individual.

Quite simply put: one man does not represent all of masonry, and masonry does nothing that would compel anyone to do any sort of crime nor help those who do so anyways.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Thank you for your words and I want to say that I am truly SORRY to all of the Sacred Order of the Masons except one member and I hope you accept my apologies. I have been wrong for blaming an Organazation such as your and I always admired the Masons, but this act sent me into never never land looking for excuses and anyone to blame, so you see it was easy for me to throw the first rock, I give you my word I will never throw blame on anyone else other than this dispicable human being.
I want you to know something as well, this event changed my life and the way that I deal with people, I was taught by ??? you know who, to not trust anyone in my line of work and then Boom my family ends up doing the most damage but it is this event that basically started the rot in my life and it spread into my illustrious career and now trust no one including my immediate family, I grew cold to everyone from then till now, pityful, right.
I let it eat at me until everything was and still is gone and I told you I was from the Tech Sciences but to tell you more I'm not sure would be wise of me, work that I have done throughout my career would be considered extremely important and its gone as well. I know for a fact that if you knew the whole truth of the matter then you would understand why I have remained silent all these years.
Damned if I do, Damned if I dont is definitely the motto of the day when it comes to me. If I would have pursued trying to further the cause of making him rot then I would have paid dearly with the loss of my valuable career but the fact of me not fighting and letting time take its coarse eventually ended up being used against me and thus I lost my career with my internal rot. Can you understand what I am trying to say? gwhint

Originally posted by blaqmyst
Very good reply. I am "Tan" well as my wife would call me a butterscotch brown. According to some bible scholars, all people from the African descent are children of Ham. But Noah had two more sons so what contribute to the human race did they take part in? Also, what about Cain, where did he go and was he destroyed in the floods as well?

I figure the best place to get answers like this would be from humble enlighten men. I appreciate the replies and honest answers for my questions. It is finally clear to me that King Solomon was writing that passage for Queen Sheba.

Thank you again.

Edited for a typing error.



[edit on 27-11-2007 by blaqmyst]

Altough I am not a Mason I feel that as a "person" I should give my opinion.
In my research I have found that Masons meet on the Level, in this spirit it shouldn't matter what race you are, you are to meet as men and equals.

As for the whole blood line of Ham and Noah, there is not a person alive today that was there so, all arguments hold no real facts only conjecture.
The argument that some scholars make to uphold the Africans as the tribe of Ham holds no more relevence than the position of racist that believe black people are the desendants of Cain "and they are only black because the mark that GOD put upon them has spread through their entire body."

None of us were there so we don't know. It's as baseless of an argument as what color Adam's hair was. We are all GOD's children wheather we are black, white, brown, red, yellow, or purple. When it all boils down to it if you are a believer, we are all the desendants of Adam and Eve, end of story. We are all mortal, we all love, hate, cry, and bleed.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion (ignorant as it may be). We would all like to see these views gone from society, unfortunately as long as we debate things like this (Solomon black or Jesus for that matter) instead of trying to better those around us we will strugle with this forever.

Even being a nonaffiliate I think that it is a pretty stupid thing that some lodges do not accept PHM as brothers, both should be reconciled as one.

On the other hand I once knew a black Mason (PH) and he was the most racist person that I have ever known in my entire life. He called all White Masons "devil worshippers." It just goes to show that the racism is a double edged sword and it will take effort on both sides to fix that problem.