Shine some light on me

I was speaking with my Masonic friends in my area and can't seem to get an answer, so I thought maybe the experts here will answer this question for me.
Many Masons claim to be providing community services, improving their communities, and being a better man but what I don't understand is why can't Prince Hall Masons (Black Masons) practice their craft in "Free Accepted Mason Lodges"?

If Masonry is suppose to make a man a better man, shouldn't simple prejudices like this be abolish?

Now, let's talk about Harim Abiff.
If he was the head builder of King Solomon's temple, from my memory according to the Bible (Songs of Solomon), Solomon states "I am Black". So if King Solomon admits to being a black man and Harim Abiff was building a temple for a black man, why are the Prince Hall Masons viewed differently from their so called Masonic Brothers? Are they not of the same bloodline of King Solomon (Referring to the descendants of Ham being the father of black people)?

Enlighten me.


mod edit: title

[edit on 11/26/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by blaqmyst
What I don't understand is why can't Prince Hall Masons (Black Masons) practice their craft in "Free Accepted Mason Lodges"? If Masonry is suppose to make a man a better man, shouldn't simple prejudices like this be abolish?

This institutional prejudice HAS been ended in a vast majority of Grand Lodges. There are a few hold outs in the south as you might expect, but even these lodges are slowly recognizing Prince Hall lodges. As to why it has not yet ended in every lodge - Masons are only human. They make mistakes too.

Originally posted by blaqmyst
So if King Solomon admits to being a black man and Harim Abiff was building a temple for a black man, why are the Prince Hall Masons viewed differently from their so called Masonic Brothers? Are they not of the same bloodline of King Solomon (Referring to the descendants of Ham being the father of black people)?

I believe this is interpretation of Song of Solomon 1:5 is fairly hard line especially given the somewhat obvious philosophical overtones of Song of Solomon. It is actually, in my opinion, most likely that Solomon was commenting on (1) being "dark" in a philosophical nature (having sin), or more practically (2) calming the fears of the people who came from a time where dark tans always meant "low class" since while everyone was "dark colored," field workers obviously had deep tans. It would seem unusual that the King, who is as high above a field worker as can be in social status, would have a dark tan.

Of course even in the event that your interpretation is correct, there is of course no logical or rational reason as to why Solomon would be the same type of "black" as current African-Americans. As you know, "black" people existed throughout the world throughout time, and there is no rational reason to believe that Solomon is somehow the same type of "black" that African-Americans are currently.

The reality is of course that none of the above really matters, because by and large Grand Lodges accept Prince Hall as equals. The few states that don't are slowly moving toward that point. There are extremely few masons today who would argue that Prince Hall masons are not equal - so the whole argument with King Solomon is really irrelevant.

Very well said. I like the reference of a "Tan" when speaking about the complexion of the people in those days, kind of funny in a way. Well, Queen Sheba fell in love with the tan man (smile).

Who was the Emperor Menelik of Ethiopia?
www.nazret.com...

Is it rubbish that his empire claim to be the descendents of Queen Sheba and Solomon? If so, he sure do have a nice tan.

The story is very revelant to the history of the Masonic man. If King Solomon was the first Worshipful Master, it is important to know him deeply for his knowledge was taught from greatness.

The African-American does not apply. Asiatic does. Thanks for giving an answer. Those lodges in the south who are holding back their prejudices should not be accepted. If the compass is used to draw a circle around their passions, should more teachings be handed down to these so called Masons?

Originally posted by blaqmyst
Very well said. I like the reference of a "Tan" when speaking about the complexion of the people in those days, kind of funny in a way. Well, Queen Sheba fell in love with the tan man (smile).

Who was the Emperor Menelik of Ethiopia?
www.nazret.com...

Of course tan probably isn't the best word to use - all of Solomon's society had a dark complexion as a characteristic of the regions ethnicity, but this complexion was probably more obvious in those people who spent time out in the fields - the low class.

As for Emperor Menelik, I would emphasize that his line CLAIMED to be decedents of Solomon's line. There is no proof of this claim, and it should be viewed very critically in light of the political reality that claiming to be from a famous line of royalty is a common political move to establish legitimacy. This is less true for democratic societies, but it really is extremely common in societies that use the divine monarchy form of rule. I would find it very unlikely that Menelik's claim was actually true, and I do not see evidence that it was. His dark complexion could come from any number of ethnicities or other ancient societies.

Originally posted by blaqmyst
If the compass is used to draw a circle around their passions, should more teachings be handed down to these so called Masons?

In my view, the masonic fraternity is extremely slow to react to changes in cultural norms. This is only my view as a master mason, but I think our history shows it to be very true. Getting Grand Lodges to recognize Prince Hall is only a matter of time, and the time is drawing near.

The practical reality is that if lodges started ending recognition of other lodges that they do not agree with, we would quickly find ourselves recognizing no one and all operating independently. Much of the value in masonry comes in the benefits of mutual recognition. Generally lodges only break off recognition when some practice so basically violates the landmarks of masonry that it is viewed as unacceptable by the brethren. This has happened before - and I think it is a important question as to whether the questionable practices around ignoring Prince Hall masons violate some of our landmarks. I do not have the answer to that, but I do know if the southern lodges continue to hold out much longer this will become a question of discussion.

Thank you again. Far as the claim to King Solomons dynasty, I would have to ask for support on this claim as well. But it is well known that Queen Sheba was the African Queen of Ethiopia and Sheba so possibly their claim could be backed by evidence, since Queen Sheba and King Solomon were in love.
I agree that when the Grand Lodges begin disbarring other lodges for their beliefs, many lodges would be closed down, but in order to restore rightousness, the lower self must be tamed. One who knows himself, knows the Creator.
This is only my beliefs, that each man who claims to seek any type of knowledge should be as the pupils were with Elihu.
I am happy to see PHM are being accepted by Grand Lodges, this is a start.

Thank you

Originally posted by blaqmyst

Now, let's talk about Harim Abiff.
If he was the head builder of King Solomon's temple, from my memory according to the Bible (Songs of Solomon), Solomon states "I am Black".

[edit on 11/26/2007 by kinglizard]

" 5 Dark am I, yet lovely,
O daughters of Jerusalem,
dark like the tents of Kedar,
like the tent curtains of Solomon. "

That's the (woman) beloved who is dark, or black for some translation - not the lover...

Salomon was simply hebrew, like Moses - whose wife Tsiporah was black (from land of Kush, most probably modern Ethiopia, Nubia or north-west Arabia)...



[edit on 27-11-2007 by Rigel]

Thank you for joining in on this discussion. That passage in the bible is coming clear. It appears Queen Sheba and King Solomon had a relationship. I don't believe he was Hebrew (Modern day Jewish) as in todays standards but he definately was Hebrew (Like the paintings of Egypt). I read about the night he concieved his son Menelik.

The bloodline of the Makeda is well known throughout the world.
en.wikipedia.org...

If King Solomon had no preferences about what color the woman would be to bear his child, why would some "Free Accepted Mason" not welcome their brothers with open arms?

This was the point I was trying to get to. A discussion about this should be brought fourth to the Grand Lodges. I understand some Lodges are accepting PHM, but all should be welcome in the Lodge.

Originally posted by blaqmyst


If Masonry is suppose to make a man a better man, shouldn't simple prejudices like this be abolish?

It may be expedient to point out that not all black Masons are Prince Hall affiliated, and not all white Masons belong to "mainstream" Lodges. About 8% of Prince Hall membership is white, and roughly 1% of mainsteam Lodge membership in the USA is black.

If he was the head builder of King Solomon's temple, from my memory according to the Bible (Songs of Solomon), Solomon states "I am Black". So if King Solomon admits to being a black man and Harim Abiff was building a temple for a black man, why are the Prince Hall Masons viewed differently from their so called Masonic Brothers? Are they not of the same bloodline of King Solomon (Referring to the descendants of Ham being the father of black people)?

I don't buy any of the Hamite stuff. As for Solomon, he was a Hebrew. The "I am black" line probably referred to Sheba, his lover according to legend.



[edit on 27-11-2007 by Masonic Light]

As you know, "black" people existed throughout the world throughout time, and there is no rational reason to believe that Solomon is somehow the same type of "black" that African-Americans are currently.

Could you please expand on this statement?

reply to post by blaqmyst


I am sure others have seen me post the following information here but if not my Grand Lodge (New Jersey) recently recognized all Prince Hall Masons and their respective Grand Lodge and vice versa.

To me it is a long overdue recognition but welcome none the less. I had the privledge of attending a Master Mason degree this past spring at one of the most respected prince Hall lodges in the country, let alone the state. A great time was had by all and since that time several Prince Hall brothers have expressed an interest or have attended communication at our lodge or others in the state. These men are all my brothers regardless of ethnicity and I look forward to meeting as many as I can.

reply to post by runningbeer


What I meant is that people have populated the earth for a long, long time. The fact that different groups of people share the same simple characteristics (like skin tone) does not in any way mean that all people who share that same characteristics have a "recent" common ancestor. As such, the fact that African Americans are "tan" and King Solomon may have been "tan" does not indicate that African-Americans are somehow the same ethnicity of Solomon.

Very good reply. I am "Tan" well as my wife would call me a butterscotch brown. According to some bible scholars, all people from the African descent are children of Ham. But Noah had two more sons so what contribute to the human race did they take part in? Also, what about Cain, where did he go and was he destroyed in the floods as well?

I figure the best place to get answers like this would be from humble enlighten men. I appreciate the replies and honest answers for my questions. It is finally clear to me that King Solomon was writing that passage for Queen Sheba.

Thank you again.

Edited for a typing error.



[edit on 27-11-2007 by blaqmyst]

I would just like to say that this is a very real problem in many states in the US; honestly, if the anti-Masons wanted to find something legit to pick on Masons about (instead of inventing wild world domination or devil worshiping conspiracies), this would be it.

In my own state, it's a problem, and it bothers me quite a bit. I can pretty much tell you that there is no way a black person would get initiated into most lodges in Kentucky. Also, the Grand Lodge does not recognize Prince Hall. While I appreciate the potential jurisdictional mess that recognizing P.H. could cause, I would also point out that it hasn't really caused a problem in those states that do recognize it as regular.

The really ironic thing is that I can drive to Cincinnati in about 10 minutes from where I live, and you find both blacks and whites in regular lodges, as well as in Prince Hall lodges.

It's sad, but a regularly initiated Master Mason who happens to be black would probably not feel welcome in many Kentucky (and other Southern state) lodges.

Yes this topic is dear to me because the knowledge that has been passed on for thousands of years should not hold any prejudices. As some brothers use the square to straighten their path to righteousness, others continue to follow crooked lines. It is a very sad thing when so many are enslaved by their passions, is this not what this knowledge attempts to guide man away from?

When King Solomon looked upon the face of Queen Sheba, did he condemn her for having dark skin? Many should take a lesson from this, all are connected, As above, so below. I am not a Mason, I study Moorish Science so many things I say may sound strangely familiar. When I read the story about the great builder Harim Abiff building King Solomons temple, I can only think about Matheno teaching his pupil John. Matheno was building John's temple preparing him for his duty later in life.

Maybe I am off on this topic but in my opinion, King Solomons temple was more then a physical structure.

I can only speak for my lodge where there is no issue with blacks at all. I recognize that some lodges do have problems with that, but this is regional and not universal. In fact, those who have a problem with blacks are dying out quickly. They are a remnant of the distant past.

Originally posted by LightinDarkness


What I meant is that people have populated the earth for a long, long time. The fact that different groups of people share the same simple characteristics (like skin tone) does not in any way mean that all people who share that same characteristics have a "recent" common ancestor. As such, the fact that African Americans are "tan" and King Solomon may have been "tan" does not indicate that African-Americans are somehow the same ethnicity of Solomon.

First let me say Thank You for your response.

While I generally agree with what you are saying.
I believe,

1 recent is relative.
2 What we are is fixed. It is determined by genetics and ancestry.
3 Who we are is in constant flux. experience and learning change who we
are constantly. IMO the who is much more important than the what, although the what is the foundation from which we build.


[edit on 11/28/2007 by runningbeer]

Well said.
A King who will enslave his people is no greater than lowest form in nature.
A King who teaches his people and build their foundation with light, will never live in darkness.

It's about the "who" and definitely not the "what".
Thanks again for your contribution.

[edit on 28-11-2007 by blaqmyst]

reply to post by Skyfloating


Hello Skyfloating
First of all I am actually new to ATS even though I signed up 2 yrs ago, I have been very busy in another country, but Im back now and I just want to ask someone in the Masons Society a question or 2 thats been eating away at me for years, but, was not sure who to ask till now, I don't know your secret handshake or any other forms of secret signals, so I never brought up the subject in social meetings around me. This ATS site has so many of your Society that I feel the need to ask these questions.
Please tell me if your society excommunicates fellow members if that member has done something entirely wrong for his own personal gain or his own personal way of punishing others. I know you stick like a glove to each other but what do you do if someone goes astray, like for example causes bodily harm or rape or murder to another person, do you punish or do you ignore his bad deeds because he is a brother.
Please let me know something about this subject and I hope you are allowed to answer for the Society. gwhint

reply to post by gwhint


This has a pretty universal masonic answer (ie, not dependent on individual grand lodges): all masons are held to the standards, laws, and customs of their country. If a mason commits a crime - like the ones you described - there is a masonic trial and, if the person was convicted in a criminal court, will end up being convicted in the masonic court. The mason would then be expelled. The level of punishment can vary, but I know for the crimes you talk about masonic expulsion would be the punishment.


[edit on 28-11-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Thanks For you honest answer but you must be right with respect to
"to much paper work" to punish a dispicable person, his crime was extreme and his criminal punishment in court did not fit the crime "house arrest" wow, no need for paperwork, right, small crime on paper.
I have been living with this thought that if there is a God then for sure this criminal will pay in his afterlife, but in terms of justice and the American way, he got off lightly, why, because his son is a member and the lawyer is a member and the judge is a member of such a distinguished Society, oh well.
Sorry if I am negative towards your society and I know for a fact the Masons have done so many good things for America from our humble beginnings and without them there may not have been an America.
My forefathers paid dearly and are based on the blood lost from not giving up and achieving glory from fighting throughout history, starting back to the Mayflower landings and into the settlements for our colonies, my forefathers fought in the French & Indian War, Revolutionary War against the English, Civil War both north and south, even soldiers from my same family killing each other for their own cause,1812, WW1, WW11, etc.
Your Masons Society was there fighting in all these conflicts as well, side by side with my family but, somewhere along the way my clan must have refused to join or just were never asked to join, who knows?
My moral values complement my vast Technical Science career and I probably would have been a very good member to your Society, but I would have been banned by dissagreaing with some rule that would have been forced on me to uphold, I use logic & common sense on all of my judgement calls. Thanks for responding so quickly as well, you must be a higher order to be able to make your oun decisions and respond,very good. I would tell yyou more about this case if you want it but you need to stay safe, so its ok. gwhint