How Masonic is London??? VERY (My amateur investigation for ATS)

As the son of a Mason, and a First Degree Brother in the R.A.O.B. Grand Council I should do this more justice, apologies in advance...
Mason; (A builder in stone) Buildings... hmmm, next you'll be telling me dentists are associated with teeth. WooHOO its all a conspiracy; the Masons conspired to build buildings. whats next; Esso found to be involved in a conspiracy to produce petrol?.
Oh, and don't forget; Shhhhhhhh or we'll send the Grand Wazoo after ya...

Hello ViolatoR

Originally posted by ViolatoR
Here is a website where someone has done their own research into the City of London layout. Link.

Interesting read, quite a lot of supposition going on though. There's no doubt there are a lot of oddities in London - that's what makes it such a wonderful city. Incidentally, there's no evidence to suggest that Sir Christopher Wren was a freemason - guilt by association perhaps.

Loved the bit about Freemasons Hall looking like a womb - not sure where that theory is going but some schoolboy jokes immediately leap to mind

And at the bottom of it he talks about "The Circus" and "Bath" (Boy, London has some strange names for places)

Ooops - looks like you didn't read the page quite as well as I did. The Circus is in Bath, not London, and (yes) there are masonic symbols all over the place. A recommended visit for any freemason. Not sure what this demonstrates though.

I can exclusively reveal to you that, yes, there has been masonic activity in London for over 300 years, and this will have left its mark on the capital. But to extrapolate this out to theorize that (a) London is covered in hidden masonic symbolism and (b) there is a hidden purpose behind this behavior ignores one rather obvious question. Why?

Still, I enjoyed the read, and loved the picture of Christopher Lee as Saruman, even though I thought he was badly cast (I always imagined Charles Gray in the role). Finding masonic symbolism in LOTR - now that would be fun! Did you know that idea of the Two Towers was from two water towers in Edgbaston near where Tolkien lived at the time? They are just around the corner from the PROVINCIAL GRAND LODGE OF WARWICKSHIRE. Does that count as a masonic connection?

Originally posted by Trinityman
Finding masonic symbolism in LOTR - now that would be fun!

What about the Arch doorway entrance to the dwarf mines? Unfortunately the language is elvish, so I don't know if the symbols in the upper left and right mean "sun" and "moon," but that's a good guess. And the seven stars looks "masonic;" at least masonry is the only group I know which uses alot of pillars/arches/and star groupings, though there could be other groups with a fondness for these symbols.

reply to post by ViolatoR


Tolkien was devoutly Catholic so I doubt it but still fun to contemplate.

Yah I know, he probably didn't want to risk excommunication, but that doesn't mean he doesn't like the pretty pictures It seems that most Catholics move on to other things anyways, ever ask a Catholic what religion they are? "Well, I was raised Catholic..." I'm the same way, raised Catholic, but my book shelf is filled with hindu, vedanta, buddhist, alchemical, mythological, and various other texts.

Originally posted by ViolatoR

Originally posted by Trinityman
Finding masonic symbolism in LOTR - now that would be fun!

What about the Arch doorway entrance to the dwarf mines? Unfortunately the language is elvish, so I don't know if the symbols in the upper left and right mean "sun" and "moon," but that's a good guess. And the seven stars looks "masonic;" at least masonry is the only group I know which uses alot of pillars/arches/and star groupings, though there could be other groups with a fondness for these symbols.

The Doors of Durin that guard the west entrance to the Mines of Moria, the symbols around the door include a hammer & anvil, two trees topped by crescent moons, a crown with seven stars, and the symbol of the House of Feanor: the Star of Feanor. The writing above the door translates to "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter."

There is no sun & moon.

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by ViolatoR
It seems that most Catholics move on to other things anyways, ever ask a Catholic what religion they are? "Well, I was raised Catholic..."

If you know they're a Catholic, is seems silly to ask what religion they are. Asking someone what religion they are seems kind of rude, anyway.

I was raised Roman Catholic. I still go to church every week, walk around with ash on my head on Wednesday, eat fish on Fridays, worship God, venerate Mary, cross myself when I pass before the altar, and am apparently the only non-molested altar boy in all of Southern California.

While I can appreciate that some Catholics may 'move on' the number of Catholics in the world continues to grow.

Your pal,
Meat.

Part two -

Here is what buildings I have covered and what I am about to cover -



Buildings 1 & 2 have been covered...

Building 3 and street 4 is next -

Building 3 is Plantation Place, outside is covered by a tall fence and every few meters there is a pillar with an 'open top' pyramid at the top.. inside is a sphere shaped light... this fence also surrounds the clothworkers (1) and building (2). This looks masonic to me by the pyramid, triangles and pillar/obelisk shapes . I could of course be wrong but I've seen these in masonic art/symbols before.

Picutres -



Street 4 is Plantation lane this has a slat floor which has golden writing on the surface.. it has very random name of places and building but also every degree of masonry from 1 to 33 and there corresponding title is written on the floor. Also written here are several masonic lodges

reply to post by mmmeat


What about the symbols above the arch, to the upper-left and upper-right? Also there seems to be far more letters on the arch than are used in the short phrase.

reply to post by II HAL II


I look forward to any pictures you can give us. Especially of Plantation lane. Sounds masonic to me.

Originally posted by ViolatoR
What about the symbols above the arch, to the upper-left and upper-right? Also there seems to be far more letters on the arch than are used in the short phrase.

The second line on the arch reads "I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs."

Your pal,
Meat.

Part two -

Here is what buildings I have covered and what I am about to cover -



Buildings 1 & 2 have been covered...

Building 3 & street 4 are next..


Building 3 is Plantation Place, outside is covered by a tall fence and every few meters there is a pillar with an 'open' pyramid at the top.. inside is a sphere shaped light... this fence also surrounds the clothworkers (1) and building (2). This looks Masonic to me by the pyramid, triangles and pillar/obelisk shapes . I could of course be wrong but I've seen these in Masonic art/symbols before.

Pictures -





Street 4 is Plantation lane this has a slate floor which has golden writing on the surface.. it has very random names of places and buildings but also every degree of masonry from 1 to 33 and there corresponding title is written on the floor. Also written here are several Masonic lodges.

I will post close up pictures of the writing (which run the length of the street you can see below) when I can but here is the only picture I could find on the web -



The church at the end of this street (St Margaret Pattens) which you can see above, was designed by Sir Christopher Wren (famous architect) and who I later discovered was a Mason.

I didn't know my draft would be posted above... sorry.



[edit on 26-1-2008 by II HAL II]

Morning II HAL II

I know you would be disappointed not to hear from me

Based on my experience as a freemason I would say that IMO there is nothing specifically masonic in the pictures you have shown and the descriptions you have given.

You are absolutely right that columns, triangles and lights are used in freemasonry; although obelisks and pyramids are not. Having said that, they are used more in non-masonic contexts eg holding buildings up, lighting rooms etc so without anything further to really tie this in to the masons I would have to say don't think so.

Street 4 is Plantation lane this has a slate floor which has golden writing on the surface.. it has very random names of places and buildings but also every degree of masonry from 1 to 33 and there corresponding title is written on the floor. Also written here are several Masonic lodges.

This is very interesting and certainly could be very masonic. Can you get the text, or maybe a picture. With enough information I hopefully will be able to research this.

The church at the end of this street (St Margaret Pattens) which you can see above, was designed by Sir Christopher Wren (famous architect) and who I later discovered was a Mason.

Actually there is no evidence that Christopher Wren was a freemason. It was claimed by Dr. James Anderson in his 1738 Book of Constitutions that Wren was Grand Master, but he also claimed many many other much more fantastic things all of which are now generally regarded as a product of his imagination.

Sir Christopher Wren may have been a freemason, but he is not listed as such in any lodge records of the time. He may possibly have been a member of the Worshipful Society of Freemasons which may have caused some confusion. Suffice it to say, contemporary records are inconclusive, and personally I find it interesting that Anderson waited until Wren was dead before he began to make his outlandish claims.

I would love it if Christopher Wren can be shown to be a freemason but I just don't think the evidence is there.

reply to post by Trinityman



Ahh Trinityman I've been expecting you... Just saw the Mason thread so I thought I would test the waters

With regard to the pictures above, I would say the triangles and light seem very close to Masonic symbols as shown below, I guess its just perspective though and I see a connection where you don't -






As for the numerous threads about pyramids and the Masonic connection, I still see one even though its so vigorously denied which makes me wonder... Could it be that there is an elite who hold great power and who have twisted Masonry into their own elite version that the good Masons like yourself don't know about?



Pyramid in the background landscape of the Masonic Apron (sorry picture didn't come out well)





Now I don't see why connecting the all seeing eye (which is Masonic), triangles (which is Masonic) and an eye in a triangle (which is Masonic) to the picture below, is such a leap (even though I know this will get me flamed lol) -



With regards to Wren I'm no expert so I don't know but I find it interesting Masonic writing is outside his church... apart from anything... so I will go with it for the moment as your argument is no more fact than my own.

This kind of diverts from the point as I still want to post the pictures of the Masonic writings but haven't had the chance yet but here's the only mention I can find on the net about it -

"long slate paving sets arranged in arcs, which carry random stream-of-history texts; Lobb's shoe leather, or trainer sole-patterns, pad or squinch across anything from limestone-lettered Masonic membership degrees, to the names of Roman deities, and events in the City's history "

I will try and take pictures as soon as possible.. maybe you can help with their meanings... Trinityman??? as I'm sure its just common Mason stuff but still adds weight to my threads point.... I think.





[edit on 31-1-2008 by II HAL II]

Eeek TrinityMan, how did you get a warning? That just doesn't seem fair. Is there some way I can give you "props" and off-set the warning??

Anyways, HAL, Look forward to the pics. I thought British Freemasons were mostly York Rite? Are the York Rite degrees written on that floor too? The glowing orbs in the triangles is quite suggestive, as they are clearly orinmental and not "holding up a building." Despite the fact that the triangle, circle and square are the most common and basic shapes, they are also the most highly reguarded by groups which attatch a special significance to them. I think given the context, we can agree there is a possible Masonic twist on the architecture, rather than a coincidental association with people who like to draw triangles with glowing eyes in them.

Doesn't the obelisk hold any symbolic importance to Freemasonry? I see it as representing the promise of finding the Omnific Word. Osiris (Secret Doctrine) was cut into 14 peices by Set (Ignorance), 13 were brought together again by Isis (Mystery Schools), and the missing 14th limb is the phallus of Osiris (the Omnific Word). Isis fashioned a temporary phallus for Osiris made out of gold. Some obelisks and pyramids had gold (rather gold alloy) capped tips, representing a temporary replacement of the missing "peice," or a replacement for the Lost Word. The eventual goal is to regain knowledge of the Omnific Word, or to cap the pyramid/obelisk (as a pyramid is just a giant obelisk-top) with the true capstone: "Originally it was to have a solid gold capstone that was a scale model of the pyramid itself. It was never placed because the builders rejected it." This idea is represented in everyones favorite masonic-whipping-boy - the dollar bill. The pyramid has 13 levels for the 13 parts of Osiris, and is being capped with the true capstone the builders rejected: the missing 14th piece, the Lost Word, the one-eyed-trouser-trout of Osiris; representing a a return to the Golden Age.

At least that's what I got out of Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians,

reply to post by ViolatoR


Thanks for the post, good information and good to read your views.

I think the Masonic writing has the York Rite degrees, from memory it has the following words (not sure if 100% correct) -

- Knight Crusader of the Cross (followed by a degree)
- Illustrious Master of the Red Cross (followed by a degree)
- (something?) Malta.

A lot of the words or phrases are followed by a degree so I think they are mostly the York Rite degrees. The thing I find funny is the other names around these, mixed in with the Masonic degrees are place names and building names. Alot of these are 'pub' names like - 'The Duck and Dog' and other funny sounding places... I have no idea why and most of them I've never heard of.

Morning Hal

Originally posted by II HAL II
With regard to the pictures above, I would say the triangles and light seem very close to Masonic symbols as shown below, I guess its just perspective though and I see a connection where you don't -

I guess that probably sums it up. My argument would be that triangles and light are not exclusively masonic, and indeed the number of times a triangle iis used in a non-masonic context (eg. math education, pictures, drawings, general three sided shapes) completely and totally outweighs the number of times it is used in a masonic context. So if you see a triangle in a geometry text book it is almost certainly not being used in a masonic way. It's all about context.

If you think you see a masonic context ask yourself why. Is it your own pre-conceived notion of what is or isn't masonic or are there other indicators? A mason is obviously the best person to ask, but if you don't trust the answer you might get then it makes getting to the truth from your perspective a lot more difficult.

As for the numerous threads about pyramids and the Masonic connection, I still see one even though its so vigorously denied which makes me wonder... Could it be that there is an elite who hold great power and who have twisted Masonry into their own elite version that the good Masons like yourself don't know about?

Of course that's possible. I just don't see any evidence for it. The main reason for this is that the structure and purpose of freemasonry make it one of the hardest organizations to infiltrate and develop an elite within. The whole thing seems to be predicated on the assumption that freemasonry is secretive (which it isn't IMO) and therefore must be up to no good (which it isn't IMO).

Now I don't see why connecting the all seeing eye (which is Masonic), triangles (which is Masonic) and an eye in a triangle (which is Masonic) to the picture below, is such a leap (even though I know this will get me flamed lol)

No, you've done nothing wrong by reaching this conclusion. I just think the conclusion is faulty because none of these symbols are exclusively masonic. The All Seeing Eye was much more widely used in the C18th as representative of God, and of course that is how freemasonry uses it. Also the triangle is/was widely used as representative of the Trinity. But it came from the mainstream into freemasonry, and to assume it came from freemasonry and is being exported back into the mainstream is just not correct.

With regards to Wren I'm no expert so I don't know but I find it interesting Masonic writing is outside his church... apart from anything... so I will go with it for the moment as your argument is no more fact than my own.

No prob. You'd be in good company.

I will try and take pictures as soon as possible.. maybe you can help with their meanings... Trinityman??? as I'm sure its just common Mason stuff but still adds weight to my threads point.... I think.

Get me as much info as you can and I'll do my best

Originally posted by ViolatoR
Eeek TrinityMan, how did you get a warning? That just doesn't seem fair. Is there some way I can give you "props" and off-set the warning??

I know - shocker eh?

Things have got a little frantic of late (in case you hadn't noticed lol) and an over-zealous mod warned me for a post I made in 2005. So beware - there's no escaping your past .

It's no problem - it was a genuine mistake but I do worry that McCarthyite tendencies are creeping in.

I thought British Freemasons were mostly York Rite?

The whole concept of York and Scottish Rite is purely American - British freemasons wouldn't think of themselves in those terms at all. There is no essential difference between the basic structure of US and UK freemasonry except the side orders (appendant degrees) are organized differently.

At least that's what I got out of Freemasonry of the Ancient Egyptians,

Is it a good read? I would classify it as fiction, as any "freemasonry" practiced by the Egyptians would only be connected with modern "speculative" freemasonry by the principles of the Ancient Mysteries, some of which were adopted and codified by influential freemasons (such as James Anderson) in the C18th. It's like saying that because the Nazis borrowed the Swastika from ancient Indian civilizations, those ancient civilizations must have been Nazis. Or (and perhaps this is a better example) if Jesus Christ incorporated some aspects of Buddhism into his philosophy, then all ancient Buddhists are in fact Christians.