Jehovahs Witness, cult or religion?

Game show producers > Dr. Bruce M. Metzger (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Princeton University)

Game show producers > Dr. William Barclay (leading Greek scholar)

Game show producers > Dr. Julius Mantey (author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament)


There you go, when we want to know how to translate Greek New testament text look for the nearest game show producer!!!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by miriam0566
i found this one hysterical, its a load of rubbish

You don't say why though. Break it down.

because im not a JW and even i know that the doctrines in dispute are not biblical and that the JWs are right.

in fact alot of these things ive debated here on this site, go to my profile and select any of the threads ive started. i went into alot of these with great detail. even the trinity

For my own personal definition of "cult" i include any religion or spirituality that discourages the learning, growing, questioning, and doubt of its members. As such i have to include JW, Mormonism, indeed any fundamentalist christian or muslim. Anyone who tells you that meditation is evil, anyone who tells you you "shouldnt think such things" and anyone who tells you doubting or questioning is wrong. It is only through massive self exploration that we can come to understand god, and it is only through doubt that we come to true faith.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
There you go, when we want to know how to translate Greek New testament text look for the nearest game show producer!!!

im not fluent with ancient greek, but i know enough to know that NWT is the most accurate.

i never quote from it because people like you dont like it so i quote from king james version.

there has been several times (on this forum even) ive had to refer to the greek because of mistranslations that have led to misunderstandings. this never happens when i read the NWT

JW's didnt change the bible. anyone of their beliefs can be shown using any bible. your just using your claim as leverage to support and argument that they are wrong.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by miriam0566
i found this one hysterical, its a load of rubbish

You don't say why though. Break it down.

because im not a JW and even i know that the doctrines in dispute are not biblical and that the JWs are right.

in fact alot of these things ive debated here on this site, go to my profile and select any of the threads ive started. i went into alot of these with great detail. even the trinity

Oh my, all this time I had believed you were a Bible-believing Christian.

It is VERY dangerous to hold the notion that Jesus Christ wasn't God made flesh.

bibleprobe.com...

What does the name "Emmanuel" mean?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
There you go, when we want to know how to translate Greek New testament text look for the nearest game show producer!!!

im not fluent with ancient greek, but i know enough to know that NWT is the most accurate.

i never quote from it because people like you dont like it so i quote from king james version.

there has been several times (on this forum even) ive had to refer to the greek because of mistranslations that have led to misunderstandings. this never happens when i read the NWT

JW's didnt change the bible. anyone of their beliefs can be shown using any bible. your just using your claim as leverage to support and argument that they are wrong.

So lemme get this straight.

Men who have DOCTORATES in the field itself are less reliable to translate Greek than the baffoons who translated the NWT????

The "lead" translator of the NWT had only 2 years of Greek language study, and "self taught" himself Hebrew.

Doesn't this seem slightly odd to you? You trust a 5 man team where their "lead" translator had only 2 years of studying Greek over Doctorates in the field???

That's hilarious.



[edit on 28-8-2008 by NOTurTypical]

Let's evaluate these NWT Greek "scholars". lol


First, a statement of FACT for reference:

The Bible manuscripts exist in three main languages. Most of the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, though portions of Daniel are in Aramaic. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek – the Greek language widely spoken 2000 years ago. This differs from Classical Greek and Modern Greek.

Lead NWT translator: Frederick Franz

Frederick Franz's education:

*Liberal Arts student at the University of Cincinnati. Completed 21 HOURS of classical Greek study, some Latin. (Classical Greek, NOT Koine Greek)


*Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year.

*Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic

George Gangas:

*No training in biblical languages. Gangas was a Turkish national who knew Modern Greek. Translated Watchtower publications into Modern Greek. (Modern Greek, not classical Greek, definately not Koine Greek)

Milton Henschel:

*No training in biblical languages.

Karl Klein

*No training in biblical languages.

Nathan Knorr:

*No training in biblical languages.

Albert Schroeder:

*No training in biblical languages. Schroeder majored in mechanical engineering for three years before dropping out.

Miriam, are you sure these men were trained adequately enough to know more about Koine Greek, Aramaic, and ancient Hebrew than men with doctorates?

Paaaaallleeeaaase!!!



[edit on 28-8-2008 by NOTurTypical]

These men PERVERTED the Bible, they didn't translate anything.

Here: www.jesus-is-savior.com...

and of course, let us not forget that the oldest type of biblical texts ever found are the nag hammadi and the dead sea scrolls, and they are quite contrary to any "translations" that we are privy to today.

"The Jehovah Witnesses are a Satanic organization, based upon the occult of Freemasonry. Charles Taze Russell was a 33rd Degree Freemason; as was Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon cult. Carefully notice the Masonic cross at the upper left corner of the photo below..."





"Below: Notice the Freemasonry cross, the Knights Templar symbol. C.T. Russell was a Knights Templar."





"Below: Notice the Masonic cross in this Freemasonry meeting hall."




"The founders of both "faiths," the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses, were of the Illuminati bloodline. Charles Taze Russell, who founded the Watchtower Society (Jehovah Witnesses), was of the Illuminati Russell bloodline, which also founded the infamous Skull and Bones Society at Yale University. Charles Taze Russell was a Satanist, a pedophile according to his wife, and a friend of the Rothschilds. Indeed it was the Rothschilds who funded the Jehovah's Witness operation into being, along with other Illuminati bankers, through "contributions" by organizations like the Rothschild-controlled B'nai B'rith."

"Below: Notice the illuminati pyramid. This is where Charles Taze Russell is buried."




"Below is a close-up of the inscription on the pyramid above. This is irrefutable proof that Jehovah Witnesses are inseparably linked to Satanic Freemasonry."




www.jesus-is-savior.com...


DENY IGNORANCE.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
It is VERY dangerous to hold the notion that Jesus Christ wasn't God made flesh.

bibleprobe.com...

What does the name "Emmanuel" mean?

lol i went through this exhaustively in the trinity thread. the argument holds no water, including the ¨I AM¨ quote which anyone who knows anything about greek knows thats just a sloppy translation.

there is like literally 40 or 50 (probably more) scriptures that describe jesus and god being separate. most of which i quoted in the trinity thread and ironically most of which come from john which is where ALL the supposed jesus is god scripture come from.

the doctrine of Christ and God being the same person is dogmatic and only suppositionally supported by the bible.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


john 1:1 is a great example of how the NWT gets it right.

Translating John 1:1: The Coptic Evidence
(Solomon Landers, September 2006)
The Coptic translation of John 1:1
1a. Š„‹‘…Š‚‹‹ŒŠ…Œ]†
1b. ]‘“Œ]†Š‚‹‹ŒŠŠ]„Ž‰ŒŠ‹‘
1c. ]‘“Š‘Š‹‘ŒŒ]†
It is becoming well-known that the primary Coptic translations of John 1:1c – the
Sahidic, the proto-Bohairic, and the Bohairic – do not render it “the Word was
God,” as is common in many English versions, but “the Word was a god,” found
notably in the New World Translation.
The significance of this is remarkable. First, the Coptic versions precede the New
World Translation by some 1,700 years, and are part of the corpus of ancient textual
witnesses to the Gospel of John. Second, the Coptic versions were produced at a
time when the Koine Greek of the Christian Greek Scriptures was still a living
language whose finer nuances could be understood by the Coptic translators, so
much so that many Greek words are left untranslated in the Coptic texts. Third,
the Coptic versions do not show the influence of later interpretations of Christology
fostered by the church councils of the 4th and 5th centuries CE.
The Greek text of John 1:1c says, E

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So lemme get this straight.

Men who have DOCTORATES in the field itself are less reliable to translate Greek than the baffoons who translated the NWT????

what about these scholars?

About the New World Translation :
"I think it is a legitimate and highly useful aid
toward the mastery of koine (and classical) Greek.
After examining a copy, I equipped several interested
second-year Greek students with it as an auxiliary test.
After learning the proper pronunciations, a motivated
student could probably learn koine (greek) from this
source (NWT) alone...the translation by the anonymous
committee is thoroughly up to date and consistently
accurate...In sum, when a witness comes to the door,
the classicist, Greek student, or Bible student alike
would do well to place an order."
-THOMAS N. WINTER:
(taught Greek - at the University of Nebraska).
(The Classical Journal, "The Kingdom Interlinear",
April-May 1974, pages 375, 376)

"In my linguistic research in connection
with the Hebrew Bible and translations,
I often refer to the English edition
of what is known as the New World Translation.
In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly
confirmed that this work reflects an honest
endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text
that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence
of a broad command of the original language,
it renders the original words into a second
language - understandably without deviating
unnecessarily from the specific structure of
the Hebrew. . .I have never discovered in the
New World Translation - any biased intent to read
something into the text that it does not contain."
-1989, Professor Benjamin Kedar of Israel

"Before I formally began to study Greek,
I simply compared the NWT with lexicons,
commentaries, and other translations
to try and determine it's accuracy.
It passed the litmus test then and it also
passes the test now for me...The NWT is a fine
translation. In my mind, it is the translation
_par excellence_."
-EDGAR FOSTER:
(Classics Major, Lenoir-Rhyne College)

"The translators of the New World Translation
of the Christian Greek Scriptures have certainly
rendered 'the best manuscript texts' with scholarly
ability and acumen."
-CHARLES FRANCIS POTTER:
(The Faith Men Live By, 1954, Page 239)

LETTER SENT TO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
DEAR SIRS;
"I have just recently completed teaching a course
for the Religious Studies Department of Indiana
University, Bloomington...This is primarily a
course in the Gospels. Your help came in the form
of copies of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation
of the Greek Scriptures which my students used as
one of the textbooks for the class. These small
volumes were invaluable to the course and very
popular with my students...Simply put, it is the
best interlinear New Testament available. I am a
trained scholar of the Bible, familiar with the
texts and tools in use in modern biblical studies,
and by the way, NOT a member of the Jehovah's
Witnesses. But I know a quality publication
when I see one, and your 'New World Bible
Translation Committee' has done its job well.
Your interlinear English rendering is accurate
and consistent to an extreme that forces the reader
to come to terms with the linguistic, cultural, and
conceptual gaps between the Greek-speaking world
and our own. Your 'New World Translation' is a high
quality, literal translation that avoids traditional
glosses in its faithfulness to the Greek. It is,
in many ways, superior to the most successful
translations in use today."
- JASON BEDUHN;
(Jason Beduhn teaches
at the University of Indiana).

"...the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation
of the New Testament...was made by a committee...
that possessed an unusual competence in Greek."
-S. MACLEAN GILMORE:
(The Andover Newton Quarterly,
September 1966, Vol 7, #1 page 25, 26)

Concerning the New World Translation -
"If you are digging for excellent
or suggestive renderings
this is among the richer mines."
- STEVEN T. BYINGTON: (translated the version
known as "The Bible in Living English").
(Christian Century,
"Review of the New World Translation
of the Christian Greek Scriptures,
November 1, 1950; page 1296)

"I am...much pleased with this free,
frank and vigorous translation of Jehovah's Witnesses.
It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning,
as I can testify...an interesting and 'scholarly'
work."
-EDGAR J. GOODSPEEDa Professor of Greek
at the University of Chicago,
and also translated the New Testament portion
of "The Bible an American Translation").


"non-superstitious Jewish translators
always favored the name Jehovah
in their translations of the Bible.
On the other hand one can note that
there is NO Jewish translation of the Bible
with Yahweh."
--M. Gérard GERTOUX; a Hebrew scholar,
specialist of the Tetragram;
president of the Association Biblique
de Recherche d'Anciens Manuscrits


"As a follower of Christ,
Peter used Gods name, Jehovah.
When Peters speech was put on record
the Tetragrammaton (YHWH / Jehovah) was here used
according to the practice during the first
century B.C.E. and the first century C.E."
- Paul Kahle; Studia Evangelica, edited by Kurt Aland,
F. L. Cross, Jean Danielou, Harald Riesenfeld
and W. C. van Unnik, Berlin, 1959, p. 614
(See App 1C §1.)


"The early Christian scholars therefore
easily learnt the true pronunciation (of Jehovah)."
-The 15th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica,
volume 12, p. 995, under the heading "Jehovah"

"Several years ago I quoted the so-called
New World Translation among several Bible versions
in articles that deal with purely philological
questions... in the course of my comparative studies
- I found the NWT rather illuminating: it gives
evidence of an acute awareness of the structural
characteristics of Hebrew as well as of an honest
effort to faithfully render these in the target
language."
- Isreali Professor Benjamin Kedar

"Last week I purchased a copy of
your New World Translation of the
Christian Greek Scriptures - of which
I take pride in being an owner.
You have done a marvelous work...
I was happy, indeed, to see the name Jehovah
in it....you have made a marvelous step
in the right direction, and I pray God
that your Version will be used to His glory.
What you have done for the Name alone
is worth all the effort...!"
-J.D. PHILLIPS:
(a Church of Christ Minister,
schooled in the original tongues).

The New World Translation -
"The translation is evidently the work of skilled
and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out
as much of the true sense of the Greek text
as the English language is capable of expressing."
-ALEXANDER THOMPSON:
(The Differentiator, April 1952, Page 52)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
These men PERVERTED the Bible, they didn't translate anything.

Here: www.jesus-is-savior.com...

i like the ¨everyone is doing it so why cant we¨ approach to translation this site offers. took the liberty of looking at the hebrew and greek myself.

genesis 1:1-2

the reason that they rendered ¨spirit of god¨ as ¨god´s active force¨ actually makes sense.

the hebrew word ¨ruwach¨ literally means breath so ruwach élohiym literally means ¨god´s breath.¨ ruwach can also mean an extension. so saying ¨god´s arm¨ wouldnt be that incorrect of a translation either.

zech 12:10

the point of contention here is that the NWT omits ¨upon me¨ in ¨and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced¨ the claim is, the omission is to support jesus not being god.

nabat (they shall look, behold) daqar (at what, who they have stabbed or pierced)

funny, no mention of ¨upon me¨

another interesting note is that in english, the grammar doesnt make sense because if god said ¨upon me¨ then god suddenly switching from first person to third person. anybody who understands basic english will tell you thats bad grammar

matt 14:33

DISCUSSION: Throughout the New Testament we find people who worshiped Jesus. Since worship is an action that should be reserved for God, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the NWT had to rectify these verses. The Greek word here is proskuneo. While this word can be translated as doing obeisance (which is defined as giving reverence or homage), the giveaway is the Watchtower’s inconsistency in translating this word. In every instance in the New Testament were proskuneo is given to Jesus Christ, it is translated as doing “obeisance.” Where proskuneo is directed to the Father (“Jehovah” in the NWT), they rightly translate it as “worship” (as in John 4:20).

if anything its adding consistency. the article is right, proskuneo can mean both worship and obeisance, but then thats why context is needed. for example, the english word love, can have several meanings. two of them are a close special bond and erotic love. now you have 2 sentences.

- bobby and jane loved each other all night

- grandpa gave jimmy a present because he loved him very much.

which meaning goes to which love?

this article assumes that jesus is God, but that assumption conflicts with countless scriptures

john 1:1

already posted some information on that. rather silly example if you ask me, because its basic greek grammar.

john 8:58

the ¨I AM¨ quote. people who support duality claim that jesus was referencing what god said to moses. several things that are silly about this argument. even if jesus was quoting Jehovah, it would be an obscure reference, and wouldnt necessarily prove anything. but the fact is, jesus was not quoting. he was explaining that he existed before abraham, which doesnt conflict with the bible since jesus is also called ¨the firstborn of creation¨ (doesnt matter which translation you use, all of them call jesus ¨firstborn of creation¨).

εγω (I, me) ειμι (I exist (used only when emphatic) -- am, have been, it is I, was.)

oh look at that it can also mean ¨I was¨ or ¨I have been¨, i wonder why other translators use the present tense when the tense is obviously not?

acts 20:28

¨which he hath purchased with his own blood.¨(KJV) there is nothing in this verse to say that ¨he¨ is speaking of god or of jesus. the only reason this site doesnt like the note [son] after blood is because they assume jesus and god is the same. so the [son] would lead the reader to assume its talking of jesus (which it is. matt 26:28, mark 14:24, luke 22:20, 1 cor 11:25) and not of god.

col 1:16,17

DISCUSSION: This is one of those passages that speak clearly toward the deity of Jesus Christ and His role as the Creator of all things. It’s also one of those passages where the Watchtower Society is powerless to form an argument from the Greek, so they play the brackets game. In order to deny the deity of Jesus Christ and to buttress their argument that Jesus was simply the first of God’s creations, they insert the word “other”. The NWT reads that Jesus, as the first created being, created all “other” things. Since the Greek word for “other” is not found in the Greek manuscripts, they bracket the word to indicate that they’re inserting a word that does not belong. This additional word does not help the flow or clarity of the text, but is instead designed to attack the explicit biblical teaching of Christ’s deity and role as Creator. Greek scholar and theologian Robert Reymond referred to the addition of “other” as “sheer theological perversity…”[2] As an example of the deceptive practices of the Watchtower Society, the 1950 version of the NWT did not bracket the word “other,” making it appear that it was part of the Greek Text. Only since 1961, when pressured to do so by Bible scholars, did they add the brackets.

the argument is moot, here why... read a few verses up

(KJV)
col 1:[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

so if jesus was the firstborn of everybody, then god uses him to make everything else, it doesnt really matter which translation you use, does it?

¨by him all things were created¨ would be the same as ¨by him all [other] things were created¨

titus 2:13

whats funny about this one is that even the king james disagrees with the articles point.

footnote

Today, this name is often spelled in English, Yahweh. As a human contrivance, Yahowah mutated to Jehovah in some manuscripts. Yahweh and Jehovah are considered synonymous, and mean “The LORD.” Jehovah’s Witnesses maintain that Jehovah is the correct name for God, and He must be referred to as such.

first off the english translation of ¨jehovah¨ has been around for hundreds of years, infact it can be found even earlier than the KJV. so im not sure where this site is getting its information. Yahweh if you want to get technical is an egyptian pronunciation.

also ¨jehovah¨ doesnt mean ¨the lord¨, like this article would conveniently like to believe. the closest possibilities are, ¨I am¨ (or I exist), or ¨he causes to become¨

¨adonai¨ literally translates as ¨the lord¨ which is clearly a different word.

reply to post by miriam0566
Ummmm the Coptic versions of the scripture were made by heretical translators in Egypt.

Only the gnostics regard them as accurate. That is why they were put into jars and hid in the Dead Sea caves, it was a crime to have them at the time and virtually all were burned.

You're not going to convince ANYONE that the Coptic versions are true scripture. No wonder you have an erroneous view of Jesus Christ.

Here

reply to post by miriam0566


Miriam,

Post 5,000 quotes if you like, you need to supply evidence that the TRANSLATORS even STUDIED Koine Greek.

4 of them had ZERO education in ancient Biblical languages.

I'll repeat myself because I doubt you caught that: Z E R O.

The LEAD NWT "scholar" *giggle* had 21 hours of CLASSICAL Greek education.

Slowly: C L A S S I C A L.

NOT Koine Greek.


Miriam, do you understand yet that these men had NO authority or education to translate Koine Greek?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Miriam,

Post 5,000 quotes if you like, you need to supply evidence that the TRANSLATORS even STUDIED Koine Greek.

4 of them had ZERO education in ancient Biblical languages.

I'll repeat myself because I doubt you caught that: Z E R O.

The LEAD NWT "scholar" *giggle* had 21 hours of CLASSICAL Greek education.

Slowly: C L A S S I C A L.

NOT Koine Greek.


Miriam, do you understand yet that these men had NO authority or education to translate Koine Greek?

and what prove do you have to prove that these men are the men that worked on the committee? if i remember the website you post simply says they are even though the committee is anonymous

you crack the same whip over and over again, but i look at the original languages myself with my own 2 eyes. i just dont see your claim that the NWT is this fantastically corrupt piece of work. id venture to say its many times more accurate than king james!

if the committee truly had NO experience with Koine Greek, id say they did an amazing job considering.

and your claims that the NWT ¨changes¨ doctrine is unfounded too. my beliefs are very similiar to JWs, and yet when im debating in this forum i use KJV. if my believes were a product of this outlandish translation, dont you think it would be alittle hard to defend myself with the KJV? go back to the forum, look at my threads, never once do i quote NWT, yet i can still show that the trinity is a sham all the same.

your not using reason.

I was always told that when a religion strays from scripture it is considered a cult

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Post 5,000 quotes if you like, you need to supply evidence that the TRANSLATORS even STUDIED Koine Greek.

so....

you post scholars that say the translation is horrible and its credible....

i post scholars that say the translation is good and its hot air?

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
I was always told that when a religion strays from scripture it is considered a cult

99.9% of christiandom is a cult?