Weird skull like thing near Opportunity

Originally posted by Hamilton
Kano. You seem to know alot about life in the universe and how every bloody lifeform around space naturally must behave just like the beasts down here.

I am the first to agree there is now and will never be a complete understanding of every form 'life' can take. But we all seem to be running off on this tangent because this object looks like life on earth. The simple fact is theres no way anything comparable on earth could survive in that environment. So running off and concluding that this is OMG PROOF OF LIFE ON MARS!!!!1 is just foolish.

[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Kano]

Honestly I have no idea what it is, I know what I can see in the picture and I know that it is not there now.

And I know that there are several frames from SOL2 that clearly show the two apandages have moved in orientation to each other.

And I know based on the lighting and shadows that the "object" is clearly "standing" above the sand

And I also know from the pictures that there are NO impact marks from this object.

Logic says that IF this thing has enough structrual strength to have "apandages" raise up above the main mass, given that there is a "wind" currenton mars. And given its shape, then IF this was an Inanimate object and it was somehow "blown" out of the field of the rovers camera, then there would have to be VISIABLE marks in the sand from its movement.

Unless it is so light weight that it could be picked up by the wind, perfectly up off the sand without tipping it over and tossed outside the crater. Which IMO is WAY BEYOND being an anomoly then if it is indeed some type of life form.

Considering the fact that we have yet to identify any other "inanimate" structure similar to the "horned" thing anywhere close or even on the other side of the planet.

My logical reasoning says that this is something that normally lives under the sand and that considering the circumstances of the landers arrival (massive thumping sounds as it impacted and rolled along the craters face) that it came either up throw the sand or ventured from its borrow maybe outside the craters rim to investigate.

Who knows, what it eats, or how its digestive system would work, maybe it eats rocks. I have no idea.

I simply know that based on its construction and the fact that we can no longer find this object or objects of similar construction that IT must be something native to that enviroment that we have not identified as of yet. But that it would fit the pattern of a living entity because of its apparent ability to move or hid.

Maybe it was a piece of glass wool used for insulation or packing material and the wind blew it away. I don't know, and I'm angry at the lack of any official response to this. Doesn't NASA have a full-time information officer to answer public queries? Maybe NASA really isn't a scientifically-oriented civilian agency, maybe it's the US Space Force looking for Martian terrorists.



[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Condorcet]

Originally posted by Valhall
Gee, Mikromarius, I never thought you could be more aggravating than you typically are...but it seems that taking on a new username has, in fact, lit your aggravation afterburners!

Well, sarcasm is a valid way of getting through points. That you don't seem to like it.... should I care? As for the new username. My last account got hacked a little more than a week ago. Instead of waiting for admin to fix the problem I made a new account. That you seem to have problems with this doesn't concern me much, other than the fact that it's a bull#e argument to come dragging with whatever you may have on myself from earlier. I sign every post I make using this account with Mikromarius, [sarcasm]even you should realise that I am who I am[/sarcasm].

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Hamilton

Originally posted by Valhall
Gee, Mikromarius, I never thought you could be more aggravating than you typically are...but it seems that taking on a new username has, in fact, lit your aggravation afterburners!

Well, sarcasm is a valid way of getting through points. That you don't seem to like it.... should I care? As for the new username. My last account got hacked a little more than a week ago. Instead of waiting for admin to fix the problem I made a new account. That you seem to have problems with this doesn't concern me much, other than the fact that it's a bull#e argument to come dragging with whatever you may have on myself from earlier. I sign every post I make using this account with Mikromarius, [sarcasm]even you should realise that I am who I am[/sarcasm].

Blessings,
Mikromarius

I'm not trying to "drag" anything. I made a contemporaneous observation that you are more obnoxious than normal.

I think you are the one that resorted to slamming in the face of logical argument against your theory. Why did you choose to attack Kano personally rather than stick with the arguments he presented?

If bull# is going to be called the greatest cry is toward you.

Originally posted by robertfenix
Open your mind to the possibility of life on other planets and you will be able to accept what you are seeing for what it really is.

The simple facts are.

The atmosphere on the Martian surface is intolerable to basically all life we know of on Earth. The is an extremely thin atmosphere; the temperature can get extremely low; there is no ozone layer or magnetic field to protect the surface from any solar radiation.

Nothing we know of (or can concieve of) could survive to anywhere near that size in those conditions (or move anywhere near as quick as robertfenix is claiming).

But at the same time, there are other things we know about that can explain such things. If it is moving (I am yet to find an image that actually shows the area minus the object). It could be a piece of debris from the landing/unfolding of the lander/rover. Or (more likely really) it could just be a plain old odd-shaped rock. There are plenty of other rocks in the crater.

Again I reiterate, no we cannot tell yet what this object is. But it is silly to run off and claim it is life when we have no way of explaining how the life exists in that atmosphere, when there are other options that we can explain and understand. Always check the obvious first. If you can prove is not the obvious, then move on to looking for alternatives.

This is a Science forum after all...

We can not find it in any newer photos then those taken on SOL 2.

Its hard to say its a rock or a tree or a piece of the airbags when its no longer there.

I am just astounded that here with a clear visual picture of the object that people can formulate complex theories to justify it being a rock, when there is no other rock like that in either rovers fields of view.

Its the simplest solution that is usually always right, and a lightweight rock, tree whatever with the physical qualities that we see in the object, being able to be lifted off the sand and tossed outside the field of view of the rovers is WAY WAY more complex then accepting the fact that this "could" be some sort of life form.

Originally posted by Kano

Originally posted by Hamilton
Kano. You seem to know alot about life in the universe and how every bloody lifeform around space naturally must behave just like the beasts down here.

I am the first to agree there is now and will never be a complete understanding of every form 'life' can take. But we all seem to be running off on this tangent because this object looks like life on earth. The simple fact is theres no way anything comparable on earth could survive in that environment. So running off and concluding that this is OMG PROOF OF LIFE ON MARS!!!!1 is just foolish.

[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Kano]

And I see that you are just as good at detecting sarcasm as you are at finding leaks in the NASA hull. Congratulations. You just won the Fooled by Hamilton Award for February.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Ah the old "I'm not really an idiot, I was being sarcastic" trick?

there are already several posts within this thread that have the links to SOL 4, SOL 5 SOL 7 even yesterday when the rover was panning around with the camera in the EXACT area where the object was.

Remember the crater is only 66 feet wide. I think even a spider could move across the WHOLE crater in under an hour.

Since it was spotted on SOL 2 (the second "day" of the mission) and SOL 4 is TWO WHOLE DAYS latter, I would find it hard to believe that IF it is alive that it could not move across the 66 feet within TWO days.

We are not talking about a microscopic aneaba. This "object" was at least 3 maybe even 5 inches in length.

So I do not see how its rate of movement is unreasonable considering we are talking about DAYS between the sets of pictures.

Originally posted by Valhall
Why did you choose to attack Kano personally rather than stick with the arguments he presented?

I am attacking his limited imagination. Below is a quote of Kano from a thread in the 2015 forum about this same object, which was my main reason for me posting what I did:

"An important aspect of Denying Ignorance is being aware of what you don't or can't know. All we know now is what we can see in that photo, which is very little. I don't think anything has moved, if it did it would make an even stronger case for some light debris being blown around. As far as we know its impossible for any anaerobic creature to move that fast under its own power. "

So as far as ignorance goes, rediculing and being stifflip arrogant is included. As far as Kano knows, oxygen is needed for life to exist, who can move a couple of feet during one day. The atmosphere on Mars is FULL of oxygen, a fact many people seem to forget, you would just need an internal mechanism in order to transform CO2 into O2. Plants do it all the time, allthough they don't move much, but a creature which had mechanism similar to what we see with plants, movement wouldn't have to be as limited as Kano's imagination and your temper is.

Blessingsm,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Kano
Ah the old "I'm not really an idiot, I was being sarcastic" trick?

Indeed. And poorly hidden too. Read through the below quote once more if you don't see the sarcasm there, or do you personally mean that life on Earth shows the full range of possibilities within borders of alien environments? Come on! You insult my intelligence. And as for calling me an idiot, did you know that this word originally was used to discribe a person who was politically incorrect. So I appreciate your regards.

Kano. You seem to know alot about life in the universe and how every bloody lifeform around space naturally must behave just like the beasts down here.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Hamilton]

EXACTLY, we don't know. WE DONT KNOW ANYTHING (that we, the public, know of at least) ABOUT EXTRATERRESTIAL LIFE FORMS. Especially not those in their native enviroments.

SO who is to say how they envolved or how they can maintain themselves in Mars enviroment. WE DONT KNOW.

But you have to be willing to look for the clues that will lead you in the path for your answers.

Just provide for me a photo that is AFTER SOL 2 that clearly shows the object and I will conceed that it is indeed inanimate and is just an anamoly.

Originally posted by Hamilton
So as far as ignorance goes, rediculing and being stifflip arrogant is included. As far as Kano knows, oxygen is needed for life to exist, who can move a couple of feet during one day. The atmosphere on Mars is FULL of oxygen, a fact many people seem to forget, you would just need an internal mechanism in order to transform CO2 into O2.

Lets see, where to start.

Firstly, you seem to be suggesting a creature might extract the O2 from the CO2 then use the O2 to breathe, (thus converting basically all of it back into CO2)? This would be a massively inefficient use of energy. As there would be energy lost through both processes.

Now, we can keep on making our little theoretical creature more and more complicated to deal with the lack of oxygen in the atmosphere. Again pointing out that nothing on Earth that could survive in an anaerobic environment is anywhere near this big nor does it have the movement rate.

But that all aside, we are forgetting all the other factors that make Martian life extremely difficult. We can also obviously keep making our creature more and more elaborate to bypass all of these. It very well could be a warm blooded rock eating crab with UV and radiation shields that can survive without oxygen and yet still run many feet in a day. But when we compare that to the other alternatives. Occams razor cuts swift and deep. Until we can find more out about the object and be sure theres no other explanation. Theres no point running off shouting 'LIFE LIFE!'.

[freeform thinking]

Personally, I don't think it's alive.

If the object was moving, it's not left any tracks. The marks from the lander look as fresh as on the first day, so any tracks are not being covered by blowing dust.

It appears to have moved and it hasn't left any tracks. Logically, it must have lifted off the ground and blown away as anything else would have left marks.

So, it must have been very light to blow in and out.

Some people are thinking that the spiky object is actually two objects close together. I can see why they say this, if you look at it long enough, you can convince yourself this is true.

Are we positive that we are not missing it because the fish-eye lens distorts the image and it's just off to the side in the picture? To my eyes, it looks like it should be visible in the front hazcam images. It appears just below the dark outcrop. To me, it looked like NASA rolled the rover to the spot it was in. Some of the nasa pictures showed they are looking at these larger white objects as well.

Now, in the microscope images you can see the small, white objects. There's spherical ones with holes in the end, and smaller ones of odd and spiky shapes. Could it be that this is the same material that the larger spiky, white objects are?

Perhaps there's some ultral-light material abundant on Mars that we have not dicovered yet. Wouldn't it be fun if this turned out to be the perfect material for building on mars, light and cellular which would help keep the cold out (or the heat in, if you prefer).

I'd love for this to be a skull, but logic dictates that any thing that lived when Mars still had an atmosphere would have been eroded to dust and sand a long time ago.

[/freeform thinking]

I'd love to hear what you think, or just throw in some wild theories! You could just be right, I don't think we understand Mars at all. The magic carpet proved this to me.



[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Zzub]

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov...

just to the left of the post and above the solar panels is a white structure that looks like it has something going up. It also has a visable dark color trail behind it.

Is this the "object"

I saved the picture and zoomed in on it, while you can not make out the shape you can clearly see that the sand has been disturbed and the darker color sand underneath is now visable, there apears to be a trail. And its not just a straight line it has at least two small bends

Originally posted by Hamilton
Indeed. And poorly hidden too. Read through the below quote once more if you don't see the sarcasm there, or do you personally mean that life on Earth shows the full range of possibilities within borders of alien environments?

I've never suggested that, in fact I've said the exact opposite many times.

As far as the 'sarcasm'. There is a distinction between innocent sarcasm and hiding behind it to be a smartarse and rude to someone. Luckily for me its hard to be upset when I consider who its coming from.

[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Kano]

marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov...

look above the rock formation about middle and to the right a little, outside the crater rim. Do you see the whitish structure that appears to raise into the air a little ?

Hmm, looked at both shots and the second looks like nothing more than a white spot, atleast from the distance we are seeing it viewed from. Further investigation would be needed. Not sure we will get that, but...

[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Oswald]