Is ATS becoming Increasingly Anti-Christian?

Originally posted by Marilyn
I am a Christian...a firm believer in God, Jesus, the Bible, and the upcoming End Times. I try not to judge others and certainly would never make fun of non believers. What another person chooses to believe or not believe is their own business. There are a lot of anti Christian threads/posts here at ATS and that's fine too. What is not okay is seeing a non believer poke fun, make snide remarks, or tell the believer they are wrong for their beliefs. Whatever a person believes should be respected.

JMO
Marilyn~

I think some religious people try to interject their religion into legislation for we, who may not share those beliefs.

I also believe that there is no idea that is exempt from by logical thought.

If a person has a religion, it is HIS religion, not mine. He chose to follow a teaching. If others find it unappealing or inconsistant or just false, it should be their right to say so.

Offering one block of thinking an exemption from scrutiny gives it an unfair advantage over competing ideas and is just wrong.

To many people religious thought is just that, thought. If some others consider it sacred they should not expect others to, as well.

No, to me not being able to attack religious belief is censorship. And I am not an athiest.

*sees yahn goodey*

Oh gosh, what is up with all the "---------------------"s? Those are incredibly annoying. I mean, I can live with the whole "G-d" spelling, since I think that it is a religious thing, but I seriously doubt including multiple "---------------------------"s make any sense.

Tell me, yahn goodey, what is your justification for this? Were you taught to type in this manner?

I think the goodness of Christianity, turning the other cheek, helping the poor, we are all sons of God, etc, are good things. I would be a Christian, but I would have to accept Christ and I really don't think he existed.

THere are too many religions preceeding and co-existing with the founding of that religion that had saviors dying for the sins of the world, some crucified, some born of virgins, etc. I think someone gathered together these popular themes to unite people into one faith. Xmas and Easter are pagan celebrations, Easter being the spring and fertility and wanting farms to be fruitful, Xmas was the celebration after the harvest, when all could settle down for an easier life (hopefully) of not tilling soil, etc.

They were tribal religions brought together into one. The Old Testiment also is a tribal religion, and I find that God nasty, vindictive, childish and not anything that I would care to emulate - the worst attributes of humans are in this deity.

The most convincing non-biblical reference to JesusC was Josephus, but historians have since discredited that account as false.

If Jesus did exist, he was born of Mary, who is not of the line of David. Joesph was, but his genes are not in JC, so JC is not the Messiah of the Old Testiment because he did not fulfil the prophecy.

But, although I don't think dogma has a place in making decisions that affect all of the nation or humanity, but I do think that we sorely require a group/forum, someway of debating moral and ethical ramifications of scientific discoveries and registering our conclusions.

In most societies, when we throw out religion, we are also ridding ourselves of a platform on which to air ethical concerns.

Look at the manipulation of human genes. I can see one day in which there will be no inhereted disease by our offspring, but what if some could afford increasing their kids' intelligence and most of humanity could not afford it. Money often rules our society, but now the monied would also be the brightest. There could be no question that they are giving the ranking positions in an organisation. Would there be equal employment legislation for the great, unwashed, stupid and poor?

We really should have a way to discuss these things without the interferance of religon and without awaiting an official statement from the heads of churchs or mullahs, or such.

We really should shape our society to our benefit and if we do not know the issues facing science there is a strong possibility that we will have no input at all in the creation of our children's future.

Perhaps there should be an ombusman and under him a debating group which takes polls and publishes their concerns, etc, so the public can make their voices heard and be a part of the debate. This should be reqired preceeding certain types of legislation.

Originally posted by swimmer
I have lived in communism, where churches were destroyed, and it seems that those times are coming back again.

All of you "atheists" have been brainwashed. I have seen it before, and there is absolutely no difference in your thinking and the reasoning of the communists who had killed millions of Christians.

The funny thing is that you believe in "science"...and yet you are not able to see that your "science" is just another, cheap religion.

Can't you say the same thing about Christians? Atheists base their beliefs on the lack of evidence of a supernatural God, while Christians base their beliefs on a book and faith.

reply to post by GeeGee


GeeGee, I'd argue that any form of ideolgy whether it be political or religious is a form of brainwashing. However, I think intent is the real question here. Can you argue that the intentions of someone like, say, Stalin were positive? I don't think you can legitimately make such a claim.

if its the threat of violence stopping us from committing "wrong" actions, then isn't morality based on coercion?

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. I'm not an athiest but Dawkins does an exellent job in this book describing the flaws of not just Christianity, but all religions. Religion is one of the largest detriments/set backs of human kind. It influences the emotionaly manipulable, weak, lost, and anybody whos hurt or down on their luck. It is just another means of control. If you dont believe me, read the book. Religion bothers me, but Christianity is outright offensive to me. And I have no problem letting anyone know that.

reply to post by Icon_xof


So, lets transmit the blame from those who are "weak" minded, to religion? Isn't that really the problem with modern day society now? No one wants to take personal responsibity for anything. Everyone wants to blame something else. "Well, well, I did this because of this and this and this and blah,blah,blah."

No, those who are "weak" minded should take a vested interest in strengthening their minds to keep manipulators from influencing them.

LOL @ this thread
i mean seriously come on. WTF.

reply to post by feanorthedude



Your comment made absolutely no contribution whatsoever to the thread... If that's the way you feel, then why say anything?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
So, lets transmit the blame from those who are "weak" minded, to religion?

I didn't say that at all. I was illustrating one of the things that frustrates me about religion, especially christianity. They take advantage of these people. I'm not saying that you have to fit into one of the aforementioned categories to be a christian, but they make up a majority of the christian population.

And I wasn't blaming the "weak" for anything, just pointing out that they are a primary target for manipulation, so I was transmitting nothing to religion. I blame religion for many many things, but few things that religion does/has done infuriate me as much as manipulation of the vulnerable and childhood indoctrination.

I saw it first hand. When I was 16 I lived in a homeless shelter, a Gospel Mission. Every night I had to sit there and watch a chaplain preach to a crowd of homeless people; people who were injured, sick, depressed, and lost. And instead of teaching them responsibility, and determination, and self accountability, and giving them the tools and knowledge to become strong, self sufficient members of society, he just told them to put their faith in god and Jesus and everything would be fine.

The Kalamazoo Gospel Mission.... Christians..... yeah, they'll help you if you submit to their beliefs. If you didn't attend service every night you were out. The services were just like any "good" Sunday service, a series of guilt trips and finger pointing and churning up all kinds of mushy mushy emotions, enough to make about anyone (not to mention the vulnerable) convert. Wow, that sounds a hellofalot like some of uncle sams strategies..... make a big bad guy (Muslims/Iraq/Osama-Satan/demons/devils), make a martyr (Jesus-WTC-our troops), and conjure up all the "good" "loving" images to strengthen your faith/patriotism, and if you leave or oppose them at all you're "evil".

Open your eyes people, religion is a false comfort that keeps us from confronting reality for what it is. It is a means of control. But more than anything it is one of the greatest evils on our planet. Dont take my word for it... check out The God Delusion, I guarantee it will open your eyes.

reply to post by goldengrain


I am not attempting to censor anything you say. You certainly have a right to express whatever opinions you wish. I only ask that it be done in a respectful manner. I would expect that in any thread on any subject...not just religion. I personally don't think that is asking too much.

Marilyn~

I am a Christian. I feel the site is faith neutral. Aliens, greys, reptilians. So what? What's weirder than the devil? -------------------PC

reply to post by Icon_xof


It appears you had a hard time growing up and I can certainly understand your anger toward the mission. Sometimes people (even with the greatest of intensions) go about things in the wrong way. Not all Christians are like the ones you encountered.

I myself have heard of missions that require people to sit through whatever in order to just receive a hot meal. IMO, that is wrong. Conditions should not be set on receiving help. If a person goes to a gospel mission for help, that person is already aware of what the mission is there for. If they wish to learn about God, it should be on option...not a requirement.

Sometimes things and people tend to get messed up, but sometimes people really do want to help...without any strings attached and sometimes those same people are Christians.

IMO, a true Christian is not going to try to force you to do or accept anything. They will show you with actions and will hope you see something in them that will enlighten you to ask questions.

I'm sorry things went so badly for you. I hope things have improved for you in your life and hope they continue to do so.

Marilyn~

reply to post by Icon_xof


Icon, all I can say is that those missionaries must have been some that were sent to "spread the gospel." I must say that if they worked quid pro quo, like you claim they did, they didn't act in a very Christian manner.

You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person.

'Living like Jesus' is simply having good morals and being kind to your fellow humans.

I am an Atheist but i go out of my way to help any person or creature. Just because a Religion teaches something doesn't mean it has a monopoly on it. Being a decent person does not stem from the Religion, it comes from yourself.

Spend less time reading the Bible and sitting in a Church and do some hands on good.

This message below was sent to me recently. It's has some interesting points.

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to
people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an
observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to
Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's
Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the
homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus
18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.

End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them: When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do
I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female,
provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine
claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination
- Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't
agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around
their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How
should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16.

Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you
can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim






[edit on 21-11-2007 by Grimholt]

I wouldnt say it is anti christian from what I have seen but I am kinda new here though........Just from what I have seen maybe anti govt though lol......But we are supposed to seperate church and state anyhow......

I've accepted that I'm not at a level of awareness, and have no where near enough knowledge to just choose a side. I've accepted that this fact will not change in this lifetime, and possibly many more ahead. We are far too primitive -- and trying to believe in one thing, without equally accepting all else as a possibility, is the cause of all conflict.

I believe there may very well be a "god", just as I equally believe in the possibility that there is no single creator -- but rather many more, or something we just simply cannot comprehend. I live my life with the belief that everything is possible -- and I choose not to worry about such "spiritualistic" subjects in the material world we live in, as it should have no say in the way we live. I believe by following our instincts -- and accepting all possibilities as our only "god", we would have all we need in order to live in a peaceful world. Atleast until we've advanced to a higher level of understanding and knowledge -- in which then we may be ready for enlightenment, and a different way of living -- perhaps less materialistic.

Doesn't mean we cannot believe in particular possibilities moreso than others... But to create conflict based on the fact that you're preferences arent shared -- is plain stupid, and childish.

As you can probably assume by seeing my beliefs, I feel we're all still just little kids and have a long way to go. Though hopefully we're all judged on our ability to progress individually, and not our race as a whole.

[edit on 21/11/07 by Navieko]

Originally posted by MarilynNot all Christians are like the ones you encountered.

I know this. I'm dont judge all christians based off of my experiences with anyone. I judge them like anyone else, on an individual basis as I learn about that person. I've met some very amazing persons who were christians, persons that I'm still good friends with. It's not the people that offend me, its the religion. It is evil hiding behind a smiling face. Its a tool used by a few evil men who hide behind millions of good hearted and well meaning (and unfortunatley nieve) people. The proof is in the Bible itself, if you actually take the time to read it from front to back with an open mind. Not true you say? How about an example of God promoting murder, rape, and pillaging;

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.-(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

Or how about the bibles recommended punishment for raping a young woman..

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Or how about all the people the bible explicitly orders us to murder...

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)
...and the list goes on and on

Originally posted by Marilyn
IMO, a true Christian is not going to try to force you to do or accept anything. They will show you with actions and will hope you see something in them that will enlighten you to ask questions.

I'm sorry but your opinion contradicts christianities track record. If you think not then you obviousley missed history class the day Mr./Mrs.Whatever discussed The Crusades.

And it's not like this corruption started with the missions or the USA or even with the Vadican. If you really read the Bible it gives itself away in several areas, and it becomes obvious that it was written by man to control other men. Another example...

"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD Almighty, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe," says the LORD Almighty.-(Malachi 3:8-11)

Hmmm.... if god can pour such blessings from heaven then why does he need our money??? Wow, this kinda reminds me of the Federal Income Tax...give us your money or you're screwed!

You seem like a real sweetheart Marilyn, it really pains me to see people like you swallowed by such deception. Do yourself a favor; Go to your local library and look up "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. If they dont have it in stock, get it via interlibrary lone.