Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

Originally posted by goosdawg
Fair enough..

Note: All words in bold in the following quotes are by my emphasis.

Police have said repeatedly that there were only three RCMP officers involved in the incident, but the video shows four men in RCMP uniforms.

Source | CBCNews.ca | Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

So was it three cops present, as the cops officially insist, or the four that we can actually see on the video?

Right now we're getting somewhere...as for this well as I said before.....I aint going to defend thier actions but could it be a simple numbering issue?

About 25 seconds after police enter the secure area where he is, there is a loud crack that sounds like a Taser shot, followed by Dziekanski screaming and convulsing as he stumbles and falls to the floor.

Another loud crack can be heard as an officer appears to fire one more Taser shot into Dziekanski.

As the officers kneel on top of Dziekanski and handcuff him, he continues to scream and convulse on the floor.

One officer is heard to say, "Hit him again. Hit him again," and there is another loud cracking sound.

Police have said only two Taser shots were fired, but a witness said she heard up to four Taser shots.

Source | CBCNews.ca | Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

So is it only the two cracks, as the cops insist, four as the witness described, or the three "loud cracks" that we can hear on the video?

Allow me to point out the third shot occurs as they're kneeling on him and putting him in handcuffs!

This is questionable. I watched the tape, the only place a third shock could have occured is when he is going down directly after the second shock. But I wasnt there so as I said before I suggest waiting for the facts to emerge before gathering your pitchforks.

Paul Pritchard shot the video with his digital camera, but afterward he surrendered it to police for their investigation on a promise that they would return it within 48 hours.
The next day, police told Pritchard they would not be returning the recording as promised.

Source | CBCNews.ca | Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

48 hours was not enough time to examine the video and interview witnesses, apparently, so they held onto it for a month, not releasing it back to it's rightful owner until threatened with legal action.

No idea why or what possible reasons, as I said before: NOT DEFENDING THEM , I am asking questions. Remember that images are reviewed for DAYS to get all the facts.

RCMP officers have also said police did not use pepper spray because of the large number of people at the airport at the time. But the video shows Dziekanski standing alone with the four officers in an otherwise empty area, which is separated from the public area by a thick glass wall.

Source | CBCNews.ca | Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

And these are just the lies we've been made aware of by independent sources, and/or can actually observe on the video.

Well actually at the start he's standing outside the doorway, then he goes inside....just a note but I understand what you mean.

RCMP spokesman Cpl. Dale Carr said no one can judge what happened to Dziekanski by just watching the video.

Source | CBCNews.ca | Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

Well, we can judge what we can see and hear on the video, as opposed to what the cops say happened, no?

"It's just one piece of evidence, one person's view. There are many people that we have spoken to," RCMP spokesman Cpl. Dale Carr said at a press conference Wednesday afternoon.
"What I urge is that those watching the video, take note of that. Put what they've seen aside for the time being. And wait to hear the totality of the evidence at the time of the inquest," Carr said.

Source | CBCNews.ca | Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

Now that the video's been released, the whole world can view this "one person's view," and determine for themselves whether they can see what the cops say we should see.

Well no offence but its "one persons opinion" that can be hyped up by the news to be "the truth". God knows how many innocent people are convicted of capital crimes and punished on not knowing the facts.

And as far as the inquest goes, I think we'll be better off waiting for the totality of all four investigations is complete, before trusting the word of the cops on this one:

The RCMP's integrated homicide investigation team, the B.C. coroner's service, the Vancouver International Airport Authority and the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP are each conducting their own investigations into the incident.

Source | CBCNews.ca | Taser video shows RCMP shocked immigrant within 25 seconds of their arrival

devilwasp, I think I understand where you're coming from, and I hope this will help you understand what I'm "on about."

Well mate if the canadian cops are anything like british cops then the truth will come out , but if you want to believe it or not thats up to you. All I can say is....if you want mob rule.....go create a complete communist state....

Originally posted by devilwasp
Murder implies planning, come on...


^^^premediated murder does......your point?


Maybe if you didnt refer to them as "bacon" you'd be a little less biased....

^^what can i say...i don't like the cops...it's not about being biased. it's about seeing them handle another situation the wrong way...


No? Wow "The lady heard them...", suppose we should all take witness statements as law huh....

^^^not but there arw a few sources for this i think. i trust her more than i trust the bacon..

You say "Again" like its venom, come on, are you seriously suggesting that cops shouldnt be allowed to screw up? Are you seriously wanting a 100% or nothing deal when it comes to thier actions?

^^^^uuuh, yeah, thats what i want...i know i am not going to get it but thats what i want...if not 100% then 99.9%..they work for us and they are getting paid to kill us and threaten us and intimidate us....i don't think we should settle for anything less than perfection or as close to we can get it..and YES, i am very much saying the cops should not be allowed to screw up.
i don't have the solutions but there are problems.....many, many problems.




8-9 out of 10? Come on, are you serious?

^^^^yeah, i'm serious..lets call em bad, corrupt, whatever you want. various degrees of course but that is absolutely what i think...i see them doing nothing to help people...they pick up the pieces and do whats best for them...you will never change my mind of that.


Have you had bad experiences with cops?

numerous bad experiences with the cops, in numerous states or various things...the very first bad experience i had was when i was 7. my house was just broken into, my parents were almost murdered and i watched some of it.
when it as over and the cops finally got there(you know, long after the call was made my mom and dad was doing the fighting...cops got ther eafter my dad was all busted up but whatever)m they got everything seperated...they were talking to my mom and my grandfather pulled up. he got out of the car and went for the guy that almost killed my parents and the cops drew down on my grandfather..
that is the first bad experience i had....go ahead and tell me my grandfather should not have went for the guy but gee, the alomst killes his daughter...i don't think pulling steel was needed there but they sure did it.
i can give many others, large and small but i have not one positive experience.

Come on people, lets be serious here...

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

i asuure my friend
i am being serious...i don't lie and i don't fake stuff. everyting i say i believe in and i feel how i say i feel

Here's a quote from an ad on the home page of the Taser company:

"The TASER® annual conference is the premier less-lethal, non-lethal event in the nation." This year, the "Who's Who" of use-of-force met in Chicago for a two-day tactical conference followed by a three-day master instructor school.

Source | Taser Home Page

"Less-lethal?!"

That's an interesting term to use in light of the events we're discussing here today, don't you think?

Oh and while you're there, be sure and stop by and pick up a tee-shirt and look at all the pretty designer colors for the "consumer" market.

Gak!

Originally posted by Boondock78
premediated murder does......your point?

Well if this clearly isnt premediated why did you say murder then?

what can i say...i don't like the cops...it's not about being biased. it's about seeing them handle another situation the wrong way...

Have you seen them handle a situation differently?

not but there arw a few sources for this i think. i trust her more than i trust the bacon..

Why?
Is one person more trustworthy than the other?

[quoite]
uuuh, yeah, thats what i want...i know i am not going to get it but thats what i want...if not 100% then 99.9%..they work for us and they are getting paid to kill us and threaten us and intimidate us....i don't think we should settle for anything less than perfection or as close to we can get it..and YES, i am very much saying the cops should not be allowed to screw up.

Well no offence but show me a system that can be perfect ANY system and I'll buy you a drink, seriously come on. They are aiming for 99.9% , they're human! Not machines....

yeah, i'm serious..lets call em bad, corrupt, whatever you want. various degrees of course but that is absolutely what i think...i see them doing nothing to help people...they pick up the pieces and do whats best for them...you will never change my mind of that.

No obviously not.....I'm just sorry you've had those experiences but I have yet to see that happen this side of the water and I dont think its that bad.

when it as over and the cops finally got there(you know, long after the call was made my mom and dad was doing the fighting...cops got ther eafter my dad was all busted up but whatever)m they got everything seperated...they were talking to my mom and my grandfather pulled up. he got out of the car and went for the guy that almost killed my parents and the cops drew down on my grandfather..
that is the first bad experience i had....go ahead and tell me my grandfather should not have went for the guy but gee, the alomst killes his daughter...i don't think pulling steel was needed there but they sure did it.
i can give many others, large and small but i have not one positive experience.

Well no offence but as soon as they arrest the guy, its thier job to protect him to. They might understand and hate what thier doing but come on, the laws the law. If you hate it then change it.

Originally posted by goosdawg
That's an interesting term to use in light of the events we're discussing here today, don't you think?

Oh and while you're there, be sure and stop by and pick up a tee-shirt and look at all the pretty designer colors for the "consumer" market.

Gak!

Uhh ok let me clear something up for you: Anything is lethal. You cant change that , its a law of physics.
"Less than lethal" is a term to describe something that can icapacitate someone quickly.

Have you seen what pepperspray does to a person who's alergic to peperspray?

murder is when you kill someone? correct
that is why i mentioned it....the cops murdered him...

my points are clear...can't play this one with you anymore

Originally posted by Boondock78

thats fine and all but is you do 'something' to someone and they die, then it was lethal force, so, thats whats they used...like i said

OK,
now i ask you, are honey bees and peanuts considered deadly?


many people have deadly reactions to these mostly innocent and to many,
harmless things we come across in our daily lives,


a taser is considered non-lethal, just as honey bees & peanut butter are.

i'm pretty sure that the over reacting security personnel & possibly the ammount of restraint used on this almost old-&-obese Polish traveler
was questionable....the 'intent' was not that of 'deadly force'.
the man's unfortunate death was more a random unforseen fatal reaction.
RIP



thanks,



(PS: i admired Frank Zappa, once ambassador to Lithuania)

Originally posted by Boondock78
murder is when you kill someone? correct
that is why i mentioned it....the cops murdered him...

my points are clear...can't play this one with you anymore

Whats manslaughter?
Accidental death?
Dare I go on?
You want to treat all deaths as murders now?

reply to post by goosdawg


This is my speculation:

"Non lethal" might be current police models. " Less Lethal" could be the new designer version for consumers

Like i said, this is not fact, just my opinion.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by dreb13]

reply to post by goosdawg



Thank you for pointing out the relevant information within the article.


First off I can only hear 2 shots with the taser but the first hit may have been two, I am not sure if two Mounties fired at the same time or not.

Secondly, I think the mounties handles this very badly. Of course the man was agitated, wouldn't you be put in the same circumstances?

Also there is some of information about this already out. This is the incident that happened a month ago in Vancouver. I'll get some of it here.

Here's the initial report from CBC

Here's the story from CTV with a quote from it.

When the man picked up an object from a counter, a trained officer pulled a conducted energy weapon -- commonly known as a Taser -- from his holster and deployed it.

The man was struck by the weapon's two probes and fell to the ground, but was still combative, said Lemaitre.

There is no mention of 2 shots with it just one.

Here's a UPI article that refutes it was the taser but the way that the police handled him after.

We need to know the exact position of the three officers, particularly where their hands and knees were. By kneeling on the guy or even keeping him face down, that can cause him to asphyxiate."

The toxicology results also showed that he had no drugs or alcohol in his system. I am looking for that right now but There isn't a quick hit for it and I have to leave again soon.

The other thing for everybody to remember is the RCMP is under fire here in Canada for corruption, deaths of officers who were insufficiently trained, there part in the Montebello incident amongst other things.

Also, this is the 16th recorded death from tasers in Canada since 2003

I am not judging the officers involved, thats for courts to do. I am judging the use of these weapons against people being called "non-lethal" when they are apparently anything but.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Uhh ok let me clear something up for you: Anything is lethal. You cant change that , its a law of physics.

Thanks, but it wasn't really necessary to point that fact out to me.

I'm rather well aware of the potential lethal qualities of the most mundane things, and exercise a reasonable degree of caution in my daily affairs when dealing with all things in the real world, as a result.

But when dealing with things with a higher potential degree of lethality, one should exercise a more heightened sense of awareness.

Like the difference between, say, using a ball point pen*, and driving an automobile.

Or a Taser and a gun, or a chokehold and a knee to the neck.

Those who are entrusted to control devices with a higher probability of potential lethality should have the self-control to wield them in a responsible manner.

If they demonstrate a lack of concern or capability in this regard, they should lose the privilege to carry this grave responsibility, no pun intended.


*(consider how the pen was used byJoe Pesci's character in "Casino" or John Cusack's in "Grosse Pointe Blank")


Edit to clarify my thought: I don't actually use Tasers, guns, chokeholds or knees to the neck.


[edit on 15-11-2007 by goosdawg]

We may talk and make comments meanwhile a human being is gone forever. And for what? Because cops in my country are being stupid and cruel to an unprotected man? To a person incapable of communicating in English? 10 hours without assistance, no translator, no emigration officers...? I can't believe this is happening in Canada. I'm ashamed of my country I wish i didn't watch that video. Now the image of that man shaking on the floor is gonna hunt me for a long time. Does a human being's life has a price?

Here in the states, there are various legal degrees of "murder". Not sure how it is in other countries.

Murder in the 1st degree is thought out (premeditated), planned, intentional. There is 2nd (not premediated) and 3rd degree murder, homicide, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, felony murder...all have their own circumstances.

I do not believe these cops "murdered" him! There is absolutely no evidence of this - right now. If we find out that these cops set the dude up, just so they could taser him into a heart attack that would kill him, then I will say otherwise. But there is nothing here that says "murder".

The guy died from a heart attack ***. What caused that is to be determined. We have no idea if he had heart conditions, etc etc. But sure, it could have been a result of the taser.

Tasers are not guns. They do not kill per say, which is why cops are using them over guns. However, if someone has a medical condition, sure it could kill them. But so could eating peanuts (as noted above).

Id also be curious to see some footage of events before the cops showed up and he got tasered. Why was he detained? Was he acting in a threatening manor before?

I mean, really...there are so many things we just dont know - yet. I refuse to jump to a conclusion until there is more facts provided.



***I heard about the heart attack not too long ago on the news today. Im looking for a written source of this.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by goosdawg
Thanks, but it wasn't really necessary to point that fact out to me.

I'm rather well aware of the potential lethal qualities of the most mundane things, and exercise a reasonable degree of caution in my daily affairs when dealing with all things in the real world, as a result.

But when dealing with things with a higher potential degree of lethality, I exercise a more heightened sense of awareness.

Like the difference between, say, using a ball point pen*, and driving an automobile.

Or a Taser and a gun, or a chokehold and a knee to the neck.

Those who are entrusted to control devices with a higher probability of potential lethality should have the self-control to wield them in a responsible manner.

If they demonstrate a lack of concern or capability in this regard, they should lose the privilege to carry this grave responsibility, no pun intended.

*(consider how the pen was used byJoe Pesci's character in "Casino" or John Cusack's in "Grosse Pointe Blank")

No offence, but we dont know how he died. Was it an officer using too much physical force, the mans heart might have been dodgy, the taser may have malfunctioned and created too much current....we wont know until the coroners done.

To be honuest I didnt see any cop using his knee in any way that would cause serious physical damage to the mans neck, I've had heavier lads than that little cop land on my neck and come out ok.

Originally posted by Telos
We may talk and make comments meanwhile a human being is gone forever.

Yes he's gone....do we play the blame game or make sure this doesnt happen again?

How about making sure that they're adequete translators at the airport....?



[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by devilwasp
I've had heavier lads than that little cop land on my neck and come out ok.

Were you braced and ready for it?

Or writhing around on the floor in pain from the high-voltage being shot through your body?

reply to post by greeneyedleo


reply to post by devilwasp


www.thestar.com...

Assistant-deputy chief coroner Jeff Dolan said an autopsy showed there was no trauma, disease or any other obvious cause of death. Officials are still waiting for the results of toxicology tests and microscopic examinations.

This man didn't have heart trouble. The coroner's autopsy states this.

Id also be curious to see some footage of events before the cops showed up and he got tasered. Why was he detained? Was he acting in a threatening manor before?

Read some of the links I just provided, they tell you what happened before the police arrived.

reply to post by GAOTU789


I heard this on the news this morning. Im looking for something "written". That report is a month old. Is there any current update that you have found? They said they had other tests to perform.


Sorry, I somehow overlooked your other posts. Looking now

[edit on 15-11-2007 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by goosdawg
Were you braced and ready for it?

Actually most of the time the only warning I had was thier shadow a second before they landed on me.

Or writhing around on the floor in pain from the high-voltage being shot through your body?

High voltage actually isnt that painful....its the current, you could have several thousand volts at less than a pico amp and not feel thing...
I'll need to drag up my lecky notes to find the levels of amperage required for pain, feeling and discomfort.

reply to post by greeneyedleo


I am going to find the toxicology report tonight but I have to run right now. Send me a u2u on what you are looking for and I'll track it down when I get back home.

If you google man dies Vancouver airport, you'll get lots of hits about this story from time of it happening to the release of the vid yesterday. They all have very similiar accounts of the incident by both security and eye witnesses that span well before the cops arrive. Sorry I would do more right now but I have to go get my daughter.

Originally posted by apc
Because someone who breaks stuff deserves to die...

I can't tell if it's a good thing or a bad thing that the Canadians are as retarded as us Americans. I'm leaning towards bad.

How much blood will have to be shed before the police stop murdering civilians?

NOTHING will change, until the day comes, that people walk up to off duty cops and adjust their attitude. PERIOD.