Breakthrough in primate cloning

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Hey I don't think you understand very well, humans are not computers lol, you cant download send memories, If you were to be cloned, that person would NOT be you, it would be someone else, you would be dead, and this person would live on with your genes but without your memories. It would be illogical for that clone to be you, compare it to identical twins.

i understand just fine..i am talking about what if's and such...i know you can't download memories....in 50 years though, when i am about 80, how do you know that we won't be able to transfer data from brain to brain or even do a brain transplant?

you don't know that. i don't know that...

can you understand where i am coming from now?

there was a time where we coud not transplant organs.....thought it could not be done...well, it gets done every day now

Originally posted by _Phoenix_


I worry a bit more about Boondock78.



[edit on 15-11-2007 by _Phoenix_]

please explain..

thanks

Originally posted by GBBumblebee


If you think it will take too long and put you out a little, why would you put your clone through that?

cause that is the point of having the clone...

i don't have it all worked out....just thinking about stuff

Originally posted by runetang


well im just saying that you, boondock, would not be behind the steering wheel of that clone, even if it downloaded everything you ever were and ever knew. it would have its own unique consciousness, or no consciousness at all (a veg).

so its no way to escape death or to continue living..

my simpe question is'how do you know'?

if all of MY data from MY brain would be downloaded into the 'empty' brain of MY clone, the exact replica of ME, then it seems to me like i would be at the controls.

it would be boonv2.0

we are all just talking here but to talk like you KNOW of what will or will not happen is silly cause none of us do..

i don't know if they will get to the point where they could transfer brain data.....who's to say it will never happen though.

Our entire race has had to deal with mortality boondock, you think that none of them lived a forefilling life? I don't believe so. If in 80 years I haven't figured it out, and haven't learned how to live a life worth living, then I messed it up pretty bad. Why worry about how much time you will have to live in the future and start living now?

I garentee you that all of us could use our time alot more efficiently if we stopped thinking about where we are going to be in 20 years, how long we will get to live, and things of that nature. If you didn't use the first 80 years to the best of your ability, what makes you think the next 80 will be any different?

As for wanting to do all sorts of things. Make priorities. Figure out what is important to you, because not everything is something you need to do to find happiness. Some things I would like to do, but if I dont get to, that is OK. Its not something I feel I NEED to experience and do. The things I feel I NEED to experience is what I should start working on now rather than later.

Because even if you can extend your bodies life 1000 years it still only takes one accident, one mis step for it to all go away. Dont worry about how long you are here, start to worry about what is the most important

[edit on 15-11-2007 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Our entire race has had to deal with mortality boondock, you think that none of them lived a forefilling life?

As for wanting to do all sorts of things. Make priorities.

our race will continue to deal woth mortality....if ther eis a way to alow us to live to say, 380 and not just 80, some people may want to do that.
i am one of them....i can make all the priorities and all that i want. i will still not get to do what i want to do with my short life..

hows this?

i would rather just be around, in my cloned body with my downloaded data, than dead.......lets use that for a simple answer.

you, at 80 may be fulfilled and at peace and ready to go...me, i might not be that way....

everyones life is different...
don't want to clone yourself? don't

if the opportunity arises to the point where i woud sownload my data into the clone, i WILL be getting it done

edit*
i don't care how great you are with priorities and time management.....80 years is not enough. 160 is not enough.
240 would work for me...

so, i would need about 2-4 clones in case of acident....

[edit on 15-11-2007 by Boondock78]

Part of what I'm seeing here is some people just want to live effectively for a very long time, or perhaps for ever, practically speaking that is. Part of the point I was trying to make is what will be ok for you to effectively out live any reasonable length of time for a human? Would you kill other humans to take there organs?
Cloning a human for that purpose is basically just that. If you can clone just an organ, that would be different.

Like I said as long as the clone isnt alive, do as you please. As I said, on a personal opinion, I think the desire for a longer life stems from not being able to identify what it is you are looking for in life. Until you do find out what you are living for, it doesnt matter how much time you have on this earth.

Originally posted by RedGolem
Would you kill other humans to take there organs?
Cloning a human for that purpose is basically just that. If you can clone just an organ, that would be different.

no i would not. i never implied that and i don't feel that cloning would be just that...


a clone of just me, just my dna, that was basically 'built' is a lot different that the fertalized egg from mom and pop growing into a human...

i don't look at it as the same..

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Like I said as long as the clone isnt alive, do as you please. As I said, on a personal opinion, I think the desire for a longer life stems from not being able to identify what it is you are looking for in life. Until you do find out what you are living for, it doesnt matter how much time you have on this earth.

well, then it don't matter.
i simply don't want to die...there are places i want to go, things i want to do,...ALl KINDS of things.

about the clone being alive, i am just tossing ideas around out loud....if i get myself cloned and the brain is kept with minimal neurons firing just to keep the body alive, basically a veg, how do you feel about that?

then, when my brain gets downloaded, bammo...mev2.0

no, it cannot be alive period. If you want to put your brain in a new body fine. It cannot be living at any point and time period. If it were then it is murder.

As for wanting to see thing in this world, personally I think it is selfish. You disregard what effects human being living 300+ years would do to this world, and you could care less. I know that if we have a population problem when we can live for 80-100 years, it would be much worse if we lived longer. On a personal stand point I find it selfish that you want to live longer at the possible expense of future humans experience of this world.

Originally posted by Boondock78



a clone of just me, just my dna, that was basically 'built' is a lot different that the fertalized egg from mom and pop growing into a human...

i don't look at it as the same..

Ok you would not kill a human to make your life longer. Above you said that a clone is of you, your dna, and growing into a human. What makes me think is you are using the term growing. Growing to me indicates alive. So are you saying a clone growing into a human is not the same as a human being born the old fashion way? Or are you saying the clone growing into a human who can walk and talk is not a real human? or what....?

Originally posted by grimreaper797
no, it cannot be alive period. If you want to put your brain in a new body fine. It cannot be living at any point and time period. If it were then it is murder.

As for wanting to see thing in this world, personally I think it is selfish. You disregard what effects human

first, i like how you post with authority.....can not be this way, PERIOD...

ok....well, that is of course your opinion on it..

if it is living in a vegetative type state, a state of little stimulation and i download my data, it's murder

i figured some people would say wanting to see the world is selfish..why?

200 years ago the average age till death was far shorter than it is now...we are up in the 80's due to medicine and science....so what would be the difference between doubling or tripling that?

you gonna answer any of my questions?
where does the line get drawn....transplanting my brain or data into my clone is not ok, but transplanting a heart into a person to keep them alive is? again i=confused.

as far as disreguarding the effects of humans on the planet, what are you talking about?
if i die, and then i put my data in the clone, there is now not two of me...still just one.

how is that any different that people having kids that have kids that have kids?

i'd really like to know....i feel like you are against this just cause it is too bizzare to fathom or something...

i can't possibly see how downloading my data into a clone so i could live longer is selfish.

are all the life saving techniques people use every day to stay alive selfish?

medical advancements.......we all use em

Originally posted by RedGolem
So are you saying a clone growing into a human is not the same as a human being born the old fashion way? Or are you saying the clone growing into a human who can walk and talk is not a real human? or what....?

i already said i really don't KNOW the answers to all this. i am just thinking out loud about the possiblities...

maybe growing is the wrong term

i AM saying that 'growing'(cia whatever method it can be done) is NOT the same as a baby being born the old fashioned way....

can you not see the difference?

the old fashioned way you have sperm/egg...chromo's from both parents. baby living in/off mom for 9 months.

with a clone, there would be done of that....they'd take MY dna(no egg. no chromo's from another person) and they would 'grow' it in a container or something...

as far as it being a 'real human'...i don't know.....a type of human maybe...i don't have that answer.

if my wife and i have 10 kids, sperm/egg from both of us, but all 10 kids will look different.

if i clone myself 10 times, it will be the exact same duplicate copy of me all 10 times.

this is different than an 'old fashion baby'

Originally posted by Boondock78
first, i like how you post with authority.....can not be this way, PERIOD...

If that is sarcasm, not appriciated. If its an honest complement, that is the second time I have heard it this week. I am to the point. I say how I see it, and you will always know that how I feel is clean cut. If I take a stance on something, its because I have analysed it and felt it is the best conclusion I can come to.

ok....well, that is of course your opinion on it..

Nobody said it wasn't.

if it is living in a vegetative type state, a state of little stimulation and i download my data, it's murder

you bet your ass it is. It is living and you took that away. Unacceptable. Plus I can see a brain transplant happening much easier than what you are talking of anyway. If it has not brain, its not really a living human being. You give it a functioning brain and it is breathing, it is given the same rights, vegitative or not. It is no longer yours to do with as you please.

i figured some people would say wanting to see the world is selfish..why?

Where did I say seeing the world was selfish? Putting words in my mouth. I said prolonging your own life to such a degree is selfish because of the effects it will have on the future of our species.

200 years ago the average age till death was far shorter than it is now...we are up in the 80's due to medicine and science....so what would be the difference between doubling or tripling that?

the problem is we are already reaching a critical point as a result. People living longer is something we haven't learned the full effects of. We are starting to see the damage it causes when a species has no balance. The problem is that we don't have a solution to the problems that result from an unbalanced population.

If we came up with a solution that every human being could live how they wanted so long as they worked for it accordingly, that would be great. But the fact is we don't. We cannot support the amount of people on this earth much longer. In time people will die of starvation, lack of room, etc. Unforeseen consequences we didn't even imagine would result from this.

Life is alot like our prison system in a sense. Know how? We made jail time much longer. As a result the prison population skyrockets. It wasn't because more people were being violent. It is because people were going away on minor charges for 10+ years as a result of the three strike laws and things of that nature. More people were coming in than going out. That is just like our world. More people are coming in than going out, and its going to turn into a crisis for our species.

To prolong life 3 times what it is now would amplify that problem and speed up its consequences.

you gonna answer any of my questions?
where does the line get drawn....transplanting my brain or data into my clone is not ok, but transplanting a heart into a person to keep them alive is? again i=confused.

Its all about if the being is alive. You created it solely for parts. Therefore, it cannot be alive. If it is, it is no longer your parts to do with as you want. If a natural born person dies in a car accident, then the heart is used for a transplant, fine. Why is that fine? Because the person was not created for the sole purpose to be used for parts and it was not killed for the purpose of using spare parts. The person lived life, died on their own accord in a sense, and has the parts avalible by chance.

There is a major difference.

as far as disreguarding the effects of humans on the planet, what are you talking about?
if i die, and then i put my data in the clone, there is now not two of me...still just one.

And that would be fine if nobody ever reproduced again.

how is that any different that people having kids that have kids that have kids?

because eventually you die, and are no longer using resources on this planet or being a part of society. Your grandkids eventually replace the old on this planet. thats the point of reproduction. But if you want to live that long, I will be OK with it when you get everyone to agree on only having kids once every 200 years.

i'd really like to know....i feel like you are against this just cause it is too bizzare to fathom or something...

i can't possibly see how downloading my data into a clone so i could live longer is selfish.

Because you disregard consequences of your actions. You aren't bothering to think it through. Its great to be an optimist and think of all the good you can gain from living all those extra years, but you don't see the big picture. You don't think about what negative things can result.

are all the life saving techniques people use every day to stay alive selfish?

medical advancements.......we all use em

To an extent, yes. I don't go to the doctor, I don't take medicine, not even advil. When some one loses a arm in an accident, thats when medicine should step in and help them. Things like that aren't the end of their life. They survive and have to deal with a missing limp. Science should be furthering itself to help those people regain a functioning limb.

People are meant to die. Its not some crazy population control scheme on my end, its nature. We have been dying and reproducing since we came into existance.

I don't believe in things like life support because if they can't survive without those machines, then maybe it is just their time to go. Im not some person that believes god intends this and that, or that there is an after life, but eventually we all have to go.

It IS selfish to damage the future by prolonging your own existance as long as possible. You aren't playing god, you are playing nature. Nature will always manage a way to find balance, and it spells tragedy for our species when that time arrives.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
If that is sarcasm, not appriciated.


^^^^it was sarcasm. sorry you don't appreciate it but i like to use it....i simply find it amusing when we are all giving opinions and talking about things that have not happened and you get a 'PERIOD' tossed in there. that ranks right up there for me, when someone types their response and then busts out the 'END OF THREAD'...i simply think it is funny. don't take it personal....


you bet your ass it is. It is living and you took that away. Unacceptable.


^^^your opinion.. i guess it depends on what you think life is...thats what great about this discussion. there are a lot of opinions and who can be right cause this has never been done before.....just cause it is new or freaky or far out does not mean it is wrong...


I said prolonging your own life to such a degree is selfish because of the effects it will have on the future of our species.



^^^i did not mean to twist your word...was an accident. maybe i just don't agree with your theory that it will have negative effects on our species...if people can have 10 kids, and people like that one freako couple that has like 17 kids, i don't see the problem with me having a few clones since only one is going to be 'operational' at a time.....that a good way to put it...after i DIE, my clones can take my downloaded data and become OPERATIONAL...



Its all about if the being is alive. You created it solely for parts. Therefore, it cannot be alive. If it is, it is no longer your parts to do with as you want.


^^^^this is your opinion though. this is not law. not all of society feels this way...is it ethically wrong? morally wrong? why?
if i copy myself,i mean, am i not free to do with myself what i want? i just so happen to want a duplicate...


Because you disregard consequences of your actions.
You don't think about what negative things can result.

^^^not so much that as i don't agree. you implications are stress on the planet and all but there are no regulations as to how many kids people can have to ole fashion way...i don't see any reason to regulate how many clones one can have, especially since only one would be operational at a time..



People are meant to die.

for the record, i agree with this about 99% so this part is gonna be just for debate...
how do we know people are supposed to die? cause thats how it has always been? cause the bible says so and describes what happens to us when we die?
what if this is science/medicine figuring out a way to beat it? a way to keep humans going(lets not call it alive) long enough to get off this rock and populate onther planet?
we don't know any of these things..
i mean, 500 years ago were people meant to die from gang green cause they could not get to a hospital, as they didn't have them?

lets look at it like that...maybe science can FIGURE IT OUT you know?
we all know this planet is doomed.

why not keep cloning? figure it out....figure out how to kep humans going...MAYBE that is why there is that much SPACE out there. maybe it is for us to migrate to once we start cloning the hell out of ourselves....


It IS selfish to damage the future by prolonging your own existance as long as possible. You aren't playing god, you are playing nature. Nature will always manage a way to find balance, and it spells tragedy for our species when that time arrives.

^^^i don't agree with you on the damaging the futire thing.
call it what you will. playing with nature. we've been doing that for some time now too.

i am not saying i have it all figured out. i am saying it is fin to think about as it seems like it is a real possibiliy that this sould happen, either legally on the top or on the undergound...
how far is it going to go..

why is it assumed as a bad thing? i just don't see it as such

sue me i guess

Ah well at least stem calls might eventually be able to be artificially created one day

Calm down people...

What you just saw/heard on the news is already old stuff.

What do you think we currently do? Genetic therapy uses cloning as a tool.

For instance, to treat Leukemia. If you have cancer cells in your blood a simple blood transfusion is not going to solve it.

First we must find which is the genetic mutation you have. We'll collect a few blood cells, substitute the nuclei with the defective gene/mutation and clone those cells.

It's really a basic technique. People are so afraid that it's hard to explain that the experiment with the monkeys was just to open the pandora's box and make people aware of the possibilities of future cloning therapies.

Originally posted by Boondock78
it was sarcasm. sorry you don't appreciate it but i like to use it....i simply find it amusing when we are all giving opinions and talking about things that have not happened and you get a 'PERIOD' tossed in there. that ranks right up there for me, when someone types their response and then busts out the 'END OF THREAD'...i simply think it is funny. don't take it personal....

Well the fact is that we live in america, where living human beings have rights. A living human being isn't property to anyone. We got rid of the idea a long time ago that every person has rights in this country.

your opinion.. i guess it depends on what you think life is...thats what great about this discussion. there are a lot of opinions and who can be right cause this has never been done before.....just cause it is new or freaky or far out does not mean it is wrong...

It has nothing to do with it being new. They are alive. Thats all there is to it. They are breathing, they have a brain. They are a living being. Whether you think we should be allowed to murder clones for spare parts is up for debate, not whether they are alive. A clone is made up of the same stuff other human being are, regardless of origin. It is identical to you, so therefore it deserves the same rights that you do.

Just because it wasn't born in a womb doesn't mean its not a living, breathing human being. Life isn't based on where it came from, but what are its attributes. Since it is identical to you in every way shape and form, the only difference is if we make it conscious or put it in a vegitative state. Fact is though, not being conscious doesn't mean something isn't alive.

i did not mean to twist your word...was an accident. maybe i just don't agree with your theory that it will have negative effects on our species...if people can have 10 kids, and people like that one freako couple that has like 17 kids, i don't see the problem with me having a few clones since only one is going to be 'operational' at a time.....that a good way to put it...after i DIE, my clones can take my downloaded data and become OPERATIONAL...

Who said people having 5+ kids isnt hurting us in the long run? People use to have so many kids because most of them died before becoming adults. That isn't the case anymore. I never said make any laws against it. I never said make any laws against cloning either. If our race is stupid enough to believe that it can get away with immortality while being stuck on this rock called planet earth, we will suffer the consequences.

You don't get this idea of population growth though. It doesn't matter if your body dies and there is still only one of you.

you and your wife have 2 kids
1+1=2+2 (2 kids)= 4. Those two kids have 5 kids total 4+5=9. One day you get really sick and die...but, you have a clone so you are back. It should be 8 instead of 9, but now it is still 9. those 5 kids have 10 kids total. now we are at 19 not including spouses of your kids and their kids etc. by now you and your wife should be dead and your two kids should be on the outs. But that isn't so thanks to cloning. instead of 14, its still 19. Those 10 kids have 25 kids. More people that were suppose to die aren't dying thanks to cloning.

You see where this is going. Could you imagine this on a mass scale? Could you imagine how quickly our world would collapse if people stopped dying when they died? If they came back in a clone body, you know the trouble that would cause in a relatively short time.

Unfortunately at the current rate, we have already screwed things up to the point where we are bringing more people into the world then leaving. Its starting to cause problems, and its going to get alot worse.

this is your opinion though. this is not law. not all of society feels this way...is it ethically wrong? morally wrong? why?
if i copy myself,i mean, am i not free to do with myself what i want? i just so happen to want a duplicate...

Oh it sure is a law. It is a living thing, so you can't kill it. If it isn't living, then by that standard anyone that gets a blow hard enough to the head to knock them out is dead. We both know that isnt true. They are alive, just unconscious. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

not so much that as i don't agree. you implications are stress on the planet and all but there are no regulations as to how many kids people can have to ole fashion way...i don't see any reason to regulate how many clones one can have, especially since only one would be operational at a time..

I never mentioned regulation. I simply highly discourage cloning. I cannot stop people from doing what they want. If they want to literally destroy the future of humanity for their own selfish reasons, I cannot do anything to stop them. And yes it is literally the destruction of the future of humanity. In the long run, it will not be sustainable. If you cannot foresee that then I suggest you take a step back and do some critical thinkin. this world is starting to see trouble maintaining a population of 6 billion.

If everyone stopped dying, how high do you think the population would be in 10 years. 20 years? 50 years? The population doubled in the last 50 years. Imagine if nobody died. Want to see if the earth can sustain a population influx of 10-15 billion people in less than 100 years. Cause that is what it will come down to if nobody dies. Some one that should have died at 19 now gets to live much older, and gets to reproduce. That is not only 1 less death but X amount more people that would not have been here otherwise.

Start thinking about everything, not just how it effects you individually.

for the record, i agree with this about 99% so this part is gonna be just for debate...
how do we know people are supposed to die? cause thats how it has always been? cause the bible says so and describes what happens to us when we die?
what if this is science/medicine figuring out a way to beat it? a way to keep humans going(lets not call it alive) long enough to get off this rock and populate onther planet?
we don't know any of these things..
i mean, 500 years ago were people meant to die from gang green cause they could not get to a hospital, as they didn't have them?

if you can find a way to not only efficiently get people off this rock, but inhabit inhabitable planets, then I have no problem with cloning what so ever.

Until then, we should be realistic when looking at cloning. Until we can figure out a way to make our species not dependent on earth, cloning is simply not acceptable.

If I knew that when population got to large, people could just mass immigrate to another place in space where we could live just like we do here, I wouldn't have any problem with the idea. But that is nothing more than a fantasy at this point. Until that fact changes, I am completely against cloning because the negatives outweigh the positives.

lets look at it like that...maybe science can FIGURE IT OUT you know?
we all know this planet is doomed.

why not keep cloning? figure it out....figure out how to kep humans going...MAYBE that is why there is that much SPACE out there. maybe it is for us to migrate to once we start cloning the hell out of ourselves....

Lets try the migration part first before cloning. Once we have that mapped out, then go for it. Once we are able to travel this universe, I am perfectly fine with people living forever. Until then, our species survival depends on how we treat this little rock we are forced to inhabit now. Being selfish about it does not help the situation for mankind.

i don't agree with you on the damaging the futire thing.
call it what you will. playing with nature. we've been doing that for some time now too.

i am not saying i have it all figured out. i am saying it is fin to think about as it seems like it is a real possibiliy that this sould happen, either legally on the top or on the undergound...
how far is it going to go..

why is it assumed as a bad thing? i just don't see it as such

sue me i guess

I don't assume it a bad thing, given our current situation, it IS a bad thing. Jumping into science of any sort is dangerous until fully exploring all the possible effects. Things is coming from some one who was planning to be an astro physics minor until I couldn't afford college and community college didn't have any program for it.

I would love to explore science, and what it is capable of, but we must do it responsibly. Jumping into cloning is probably the most unresponsible thing to do when we just got our hands into it.

It is simply a bad idea till we can safegaurd possible consequences. The consequences I logically foresee cannot be safegaurded at the moment because even without cloning we are making the mistake.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe



Well, it would be governments that would be first in line to buy clones for their military and law enforcement needs. Then security agencies in the private sector would buy in for their security personnel. Basically, by the time outfits like Blackwater bought in, it would be much less expensive than hiring "real" people. Indeed, the question of what constitutes a real person would become a major issue. So much for "real" people exploring space anymore as well. Natural resource management operations, deep sea operations, HAZMAT, you name it, they will all buy in. So will all the corporate manufacturers located in China and the rest of Asia. Then eventually the price of clones would drop so that the average person, i.e., the average "real" person could afford one for use. Don't need much of an imagination to understand the possible uses in the consumer sector.

I don't know, some people are fine with it -- of course, that's okay. But for me, I cannot imagine a greater economic disrupter for humans than cloned humans. I would hope that the clones would have designer digestive systems so that they would not eat the same things that humans eat. Like, maybe, they could survive on pure high fructose and nothing else. Kinda like real humans now, only the clones would be restricted to that diet. The outlook of cloned humans seems pretty bleak to me, even though it would be cool to have back up organs. Imagine clones picketing Capitol Hill and the The White House, or the New World Order offices on some remote South Pacific island. It just sounds ill.