Kosovo

Ok you are partially right. About different minds and modern culture. Here we are different (maybe even a lot). But again we are South Slavic or South Slovens like we said. We have same roots. My father is Croatian and my mother is Serbian. But again they are not clear about their roots. Mother have Macedonian, Greece, Serbian and maybe other bloods in blood line and father have Bosnian, Croatian. And that's the case with every other "sub-cultures" (except Slovenians - which is little bit ironic because of the name of their nation - and they are not even Slovens or Slavic) on the former-Yugoslavia territory. We are all mixed between other South Slavic people because of that I also think that Bosnians, Montenegro people, Macedonians, Croatians and Serbians are same despite their different accent or even language. That was the idea of Yugoslavia. Because of that Yugoslavia existed. And it is normal that some people (like Croatia in our case) claims that they are different (you have that even between towns, regions, even the district in big towns). But i stand firmly in front of my claim that we are the same people. And that we all knows that but some of us don't want to admit that.


And we all (maybe 90% in reality) secretly feel melancholic about our nice Yugoslavia. Yes many things were not good in that communistic Yugoslavia but guess what was good. Relations between people. We helped each other, we were brothers, sisters, all like big family. We love each other. Great feeling was in the air.

We should modernize our country together and do not fall apart, we would be great country today I'm sure of that. But we were sabotaged from outside.

That's the whole truth.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by robija]

Originally posted by robija


And we all (maybe 90% in reality) secretly feel melancholic about our nice Yugoslavia. Yes many things were not good in that communistic Yugoslavia but guess what was good. Relations between people. We helped each other, we were brothers, sisters, all like big family. We love each other. Great feeling was in the air.

We should modernize our country together and do not fall apart, we would be great country today I'm sure of that. But we were sabotaged from outside.

That's the whole truth.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by robija]

Woah now. My sister-in-law is Bosnian, I have many Bosnian and Croat friends here in the U.S. (they all came when the region expoded in the 90s) and there is one thing they all agree on and that is most of the ethnic groups hated each other. They played pretty in public and intermarried and whatnot, but that was partially becasue it was illegal to not get along. All my Balkan friends have told me stories about how once ANY hostilities came there way the gloves went off and everyone either fled or fought for the most part. My sister-in-law is completely mixed, Muslim Bosnian mom, Catholic Croat dad (they lived in Banja Luka) and she has told me that as soon as the fighting erupted people from both sides of her family started fighting, EACH OTHER. Her best friend's dad (a Serb) lead other's to their apartment and forced them out.
I find it difficult that everyone was one big happy family with the brutality that was released (on all sides) during the war.

On a lighter note (much lighter) my sister-in-law's parents have recently moved back to Croatia and own a bed and breakfast in the Dalmatian islands (not sure where exactly) and I am trying to save to take the family there in the summer of 08. My wife is half Greek and we would be close to her ancestral home too so we pan on heading down there as well.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by observer]

@observer

"My sister-in-law is completely mixed, Muslim Bosnian mom, Catholic Croat dad (they lived in Banja Luka) and she has told me that as soon as the fighting erupted people from both sides of her family started fighting, EACH OTHER. Her best friend's dad (a Serb) lead other's to their apartment and forced them out."


I don't know should I cry or laugh. Unfortunately people like they exists all over the world. But I said 90% not all. And then that we were sabotaged. Outside of course. It's easy when you play spoil and smart to put two or more people fighting each other no matter how close they are. I know good people and people which work and build together. Not people like your cousins are. And media was lying then (when civil war was on and before that). So it is not everything as is looks like. Believe me. Or don't.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by robija]

I think Yugoslavia fell apart for a natural reason - much like Soviet Union. It was a forced allience (meaning that you had no choice but to be in it) of different people and cultures, and the communist leadership tried its best to reconcile the differences and create a "Yugoslavian" identity. That said Yugoslavia under Tito was more successful than Soviet Union, because the standard of life was better, there was no malicious mass-cleansing like under Stalin, and there was a fairly good balance of all represented peoples (Serbs, Croats, Albanians, Macedonians) in politics. Tito was a masterful politician and negotiator, but it should have been foreseen that without him the loose allience will break apart.

I understand Croatia, Slovenia, and perhaps Macedonia for wanting to separate. As for the rest - war could have been avoided, if a masterful politician was in charge. Milosevic I think was a great orator, but he did not have the skills to handle the separation of Yugoslavia. I undertand the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina - both Croats and Serbs has some justified claims to it. But conflicts in Kosovo, and later smaller conflicts in Macedonia (with Albanians) should have never happened - because that land does not belond to Albanians in any historical or political sense.

That said - NATO had no business in Kosovo, and Serbs were defending their own people there through any means they could. What troubles me is not the conflicts, as these sorts of conflicts can be expected (just look at post-Soviet Union wars). It is the way NATO and the West behaved outright aggressively towards Serbs. No one can explain to me how NATO was justified in starting that war. Milosevic has proved his innocence in Hague over and over as well. But why does the West still continue to seek retribution against Serbia? Why not stop at the fact that they already destroyed what was once a powerful nation? How long can this Kosovo nonesense can go on? They should leave at as an autonomous province within Serbia, and have UN monitor the place for the next decade or so. As for Albanians - under no circumstance should they be allowed to hold their own independent police or military force in Kosovo.

Maybe I do not have a clear comprehension of this, but I am well familiar with post Soviet-Union conflicts as I come from there. The only thing that separates Serbia and Russia in this sense, is that Russia had enough strength to defend its national unity in Chechnya without Western involvement, and Serbia did not.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by maloy]

[edit on 15-11-2007 by maloy]

I can guaranty you, robija, I've read every word of every post in this thread, but what I'm trying to get to core of is maybe off-topic for this thread. Which is how could the barbery and the slaughter of the wars following the disintegration of Yugoslavia happen?

Your claim now, that Serbs, Croats, Slovenians et al is more less the same Slavian people only adds to the mystery, only makes it more ununderstable. But you confirming that such a thing as serbo-croat do exists, makes my socialist schooling not all in vain.

Let me try one more time, the struggle and the attrocities, the declaring of indepence of the Slovenians and the Croat spurred, is based in religion. When the secular state fell apart the ghost of religious hate was released, is it so it was? Orthodoxs against Chatholics and Muslims and vice versa.

Also I have to tell you, I have on several occasions in the 60s and 70s traveled through Yugoslavia and enjoyed the hospitality of the people without giving any thought to their ethnic credidentials. Let me also add I did it on my own and not within any scheme of ideological exchange. Further more my native country in Northern Europe was among the first to wellcome guest workers of the former Yugoslavia, soon 50 years ago to the date, so I do know a little about your people. Serbo-croats have contributed both on the bright and on the dark side to my country and they have done well especially in cultures of the stage, music and acting. Even Radovan Karadiz worked for some years in my country as a pediatrician.

The core question to me, how the attrocities in especially the Bosnian war could happen and develope the way they did, doesn't fall within the topic of this thread I understand. Still the tribunal in the Haag was brought up refered to as "a farce", and I have to ask again, shouldn't Karadiz and Mladic be brought to justice there? If not, shouldn't they stand trial at all? No nationalistic or political twist can justify their monsterous actions.

But if this thread is all about nationalistic glorification, I have nothing to do here, as Nationalism is the cause of all ill-fated events that have happened to Europe since the Napoleonic wars. Together with religion you got the most explosive mix known to man.

To me it is more important to focus on the common traits through the diversities of culture. Therefore to me an ideological state is so much better than any nationalistic or religious one can ever be.

@khunmoon

Again sorry (it is maybe because of my elementary knowing of english language) but your post is like some stain to me. I mean i can't find what you want to say (what's your point).

I agree only with religious differences between our people and agree that this differences has to do much in that civil war. Maybe I forgot to mention it earlier.

I am not talking about Karadzic and Mladic because i do not know exactly what do they do, And don't know if claims of the Hag prosecutors is truthful or not. But I'm sure that their actions (if we take that claims about some kind of genocide truth) is just theirs and not ordered by our government. If they do that bad things then they deserve punishment like every man who would do the same. But where are them. Don't think that we know where are them.

I was talking more about problem of Kosovo which has nothing to do with Karadzic or Mladic.

And I was more interested about opinion of Americans in this case but as I see they do not know heck about it. That is enough for me.

Thank you all for your contributions. I hope, you don't have hard feelings people.



Tito was mystery man. Yes it looks that he was master politician but when you hear his interviews then all that falls in the deep water. Conspirations everywhere around us.

[edit on 16-11-2007 by robija]

[edit on 16-11-2007 by robija]

[edit on 16-11-2007 by robija]

reply to post by robija


Well, your English is just as good as mine, and I'm sorry that you should feel I "stain" you. That has never been my intention. It was merely to get some information "from the other side" on the Balkan wars of the 90s -- without fully realizing you narrowed it in to Kosova only.

Leaving the massmurderes out, I do find that you seemingly don't want to admit knowledge of the worst genocide in Europe since WW2, but it is hard to believe that you would never have heard about Srebeniza, or the snipers making life in Sarejevo hell, or the bombs against marketplaces there, amongst other things. You don't deny them and don't admit them, I sense you don't want to talk about them, but only about Kosova. Well, a sound judgement would say, with that overwhelming Albanian majority it naturally should be Albanian. And I stick to such a judgement.

If it can be of any comfort to you, my country has a similar fate. The cradle of its history of origin today being on German soil. Like a bulwark fence from the 7th-8th century of which remains still exits, originally stretching from the Baltic to the North Sea.

Through the centuries important battles have been fought there to shape and defend its national existence. Further more the baptizing to Christianity happened there, as well as the bloodline of our royal family do originate from that 'province' or duchy, as it actually is. It's 143 years ago we lost it, and we don't go around and mourn it. Up to maybe 40 years ago it was remembered annually, but hardly today.

Not only the signifigance of identifying events, but also its ethnic composition, is a parallel. The majority were German-speaking people.

During the civil revolutions in the new Europe after the Congress of Vienna, the claim of using German as administrative language resulted in civil war with the duchy side supported by Preussia and Austria. After two wars fought it was finally lost, and thereby was the nation decimated with one fifth of its area, and with one third of its national product. So kind of blow it was. But I never heard any mourning over that.

A tragdedy sure it was, but instead of turning inward in grief, we turned inward in ingenuity and developed the country agriculturally and later on, among others, did innovation in delicate electronics and precision machinery. Beside that we pionered in social wellfare systems as well.

This to say, by getting stuck in history and not adjusting to current reality it all gets a kind of 'zionistification' to it. Which by now we should know is not healthy.

When I see all other countries with similar problem (and there is a lot of countries with similar problem) give their territory to people who live there then i would accept Kosovo is Albanian. Not before.

I heard abut Srebrenica but as I said before that was action of one group of people not our government. Because of that I'm not interested. You have case about Sarajevo marketplace where all nations was put guilt on my country and later it was proven that Muslims bombard other Muslims there just to put blame on us. Because of that I can't really know what happened in Srebrenica. Is it true what I see on TV? I guess not.

And we do not mourn, we try to keep part of our land. If we lose it we won't mourn. But now we didn't lose it yet and trying to do something to keep it.

Robija!
It was a learnful experience to talk with you, though I cannot support your reasoning and we couldn't agree on much.

Maybe we could agree on that Kosovo for now should stay with Serbia. From a security politic point of view it would be safest ...if arrangements for resettlement of your displaced countrymen and keeping a peace with the Albanians could be guarantied. To do that, some kind of selfrule must be granted, as well something done about the cause of the problem, Albania, a stout alley of USA, sure, and one point I agree with you, a bandit state in any true sense of the word.

Unfortunately I'm not even sure they are negociating with EU to join yet. But I know Sebia is, and its ambition is to be full member by 2012. In that process you'll have to go far concerning Kosovo. Not necessary by giving independence, but by granting them some self governance. It could be solved, and for the economic future of your country, EU is the only way.

I hope everything will work out for Serbia and peace and prosperity shall prevail.

Originally posted by robija
Ok but I was afraid that I will maybe turn your heads in some direction which I wouldn't want to do. But Ok. I have nothing to hide. Kosovo was and is Serbian Sacred land. Kosovo is cradle of our ortodox, patriarchate nation. I have relatives who lives in Kosovo.

I watched a very interesting documentary series a few months ago on BBC Four

www.bbc.co.uk...

In the episode that covered the Balkans it explained that at the turn of the century, as in many places nationalism did not really exist, not in the way it does today and certainly not in the way that it existed during the two world wars. I found this fascinating. The photographs were stunning and showed a way of life that clearly no longer exists. They are running the series on BBC 2 (I can't remember at what point in the series the Balkans is covered but it definately wasn't the first episode and it is only one in - the next one is this coming Friday) and if you can get to see it I think that you would find it interesting. Although be warned it may just break your heart.

Evidently, at the turn of the 20th century many Balkans ( I hope you don't take offence at my use of the generic) identified themselves ethnically with whichever church they belonged to, to the extent that two brothers would describe themselves as being ethnically different if they each belonged to a different church, ie Serbian and Macedonian. However because of the still quite tribalistic nature of the people of the Balkans this was in no way devisive. I don't know how accurate that is and to be honest I found it somewhat difficult to comprehend - ethcity and difference is constantly rammed down our throats that it is difficult to envision a time when this did not exist. Were we really so innocent once?

Was Kosovo's Serbian Orthodox christians effected by the persecutions by the Ustasha in world War 2? (My political geography is very poor so I am unsure of the territorial lines).

To all the Serbs reading this:

what is there to discuss? Get off your butt and retake Kosovo. It's about time.

Hahahah. Great. This is becoming funny now.

About retaking Kosovo. Unfortunately it is not possible to do it on a peaceful way so I will say it is not possible at all, because I don't like aggression and for my country another war could be fatal. I just hope that our people (Serbs) there can somehow live in their homes without fear. And that our churches can stay as long as they stay there already. And many of them are built before America was founded.

@khunmoon
I'm not sure that I want to be in the country which is part of the EU. Call me "separatist" for this but I can't see real benefits of EU membership. Except as you said economic prosperity. But that's only thing. And I'm not sure even in this because I think that we had to give more money to EU that we can really benefit. I hope I'm wrong.

[edit on 19-11-2007 by robija]

one song which is pure Yugoslavian emotions. Just to show you what was I meant before when I was explaining about Yugoslavian idea. Song is about Josip Broz Tito.

www.slobodnajugoslavija.com...

[edit on 22-11-2007 by robija]

Serbia has drafted an action plan, which will be set in motion if Kosovo declare independence. The exact measures to be taken is a "state secret", but they're talking about breaking off diplomatic relations with those countries which recognize Kosovo's independence...


RIA Novosti: Serbia drafts action plan if Kosovo proclaims independence

Serbia can do nothing on its own right now. If NATO decides to grant Kosovo independence (and only NATO can since UN won't), than Serbia can do very little about it. But is independent Kosovo going to be a justified nation? UN didn't approve it, only NATO did. I still do not see a resolution via NATO, since it will not give it the same status as UN would. And concerning UN - that is not happening anytime soon. Serbia is in bad situation, practically powerless, but then independent Kosovo wouldn't be very promising either. What NATO is offering cannot last, and will only end in violence.

I think the problem is that Albanians are too restless. They are pressuring UN because they do not wish to wait for the sides to work out an agreement. They want independence here and now - and that is not a good way to achieve a lasting nation.

Serbia threatens with war!


Serbia warns of a new Balkan war as peace talks over Kosovo fail - Times Online

reply to post by robija


Hi robija/
Seeing that you speak of the Orthodox Church,it's Monasteries and it's rich History coming to know Christianity,I am interested to see if you know of the Future of Kosovo and it's role in the whole World?

I Know of prophecy concerning the end of times written many times over by various Saints and Rightious people of the Church.
Have you heard of S.Kosmas and what He prophesied about Kosovo?
Another Rightious man Elder Paisios spoke of the coming war before he passed away...1992?(I dont know the exact year)
I would like to know if you an opinion concerning the Role Russia will play in the coming years?
Thank you,
helen

reply to post by helen670
sorry to jumping in after 1000 years in this old topic but I must say that I'm talking about orthodox religion and churches mostly because of historical, tradition and culture values... I will probably dissapoint you when i told you that I am agnostic and do not believe in almost anything that was written in the Bible. But I'm sending you a nicest greetings from my beloved Serbia

il.youtube.com...

il.youtube.com...

il.youtube.com...

Originally posted by robija
I do not like politics but here is the firing question for me and my country. What do you know of this problem, what do you think... etc. Pls contribute.

by the way are you a serb or Albanian?

Kosovo was never yours, Albanians stole it from the serbian people by force with the help of the american and NATO forces, yet your people claim a kosovo genocide took place, but the population is over 90% or 95% Albanian.

don't you think that's an far cry like the boy who cried wolf?


The Reason For Americas Interests Is OIL

don't you know why america and Britain are really there in Kosovo? ever heard of AMBO oil pipelines Project in the Balkans?

I was going to start thread about this.


Here is the map showing the oil pipelines running through the whole Balkans including kosovo







Campbond steel was made and meant to protect the oil pipelines and control them

www.wsws.org...
www.globalresearch.ca...


For every war there's is a reason behind it, but the claim of a ethnic cleansing was a mask for the media for the uses of a propaganda campaign.




Halliburton in the Balkans

www.halliburtonwatch.org...

Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root is paid $9 million by the Pentagon (under Cheney's direction as Secretary of Defense) to produce a classified report detailing how private companies (like itself) could provide logistical support for American troops in potential war zones around the world. Shortly after this report, the Pentagon awards Brown & Root a five-year contract to provide logistics for the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers. The General Accounting Office estimates that through this contract, Brown & Root makes overall $2.2 billion in revenue in the Balkans.2

By the way thread OP your people in Kosovo are living off by Drugs, Crimes, Sex since to my knowledge Kosovo has the biggest unemployment rate in all of eupore, next to Bosnia another Islamic state created by the united states.


To tell you the truth robija america doesn't care if your people make a golden statue of a either bush, bill clinton or obama.

What your people are doing is welcoming the elites of a new world order.