Kosovo

I do not like politics but here is the firing question for me and my country. What do you know of this problem, what do you think... etc. Pls contribute.

It was just part of destroying a powerful Serbia, that started as soon as the Berlin Wall fell. The Monthly Review did a whole issue on this.

I'd also recommend a book: Michael Parenti, To Kill a Nation.

[edit on 13-11-2007 by Raoul Duke]

Hi hi. I know more about that then all existing books. Or maybe it is better to say I feel. I'm not looking for information like articles or books are. I'm interested in your personal opinions. But I must admit that you give a great example of honest (which is very rare in this case) book.

[edit on 13-11-2007 by robija]

Well, IMO Yugoslavia was the most successful Soviet satellite (actually it's debatable that it was a Soviet satellite b/c it was pretty independent). The western powers don't like communism, and as soon as the Berlin Wall fell, they did a lot of chicanery to get rid of communist Yugoslavia.

p.s. I'd like to say more, but I forgot a lot of what I once knew on this issue. Thanks for making this post, I've got to familiarize myself with this stuff again.

[edit on 13-11-2007 by Raoul Duke]

Yes that's totally right but again it is not directly about Kosovo. Please I need contribution people. Very important theme for me.

reply to post by robija


For most of us, all we can get is information from articles and books, it sound like you have a personal perspective on the Kosovo situation and events.

I would love to hear your account on the situation and your feelings on the situation of your country.

Originally posted by robija
Yes that's totally right but again it is not directly about Kosovo. Please I need contribution people. Very important theme for me.

May I ask, are you preparing a paper / report for school? I don't care either way, just wondering.

Ok but I was afraid that I will maybe turn your heads in some direction which I wouldn't want to do. But Ok. I have nothing to hide. Kosovo was and is Serbian Sacred land. Kosovo is cradle of our ortodox, patriarchate nation. I have relatives who lives in Kosovo. I admit there is a problem in Kosovo. But what is the problem exactly? That is the right question. Problem is too many Albanian immigrants, too much money in there hands (from drugs - because albania is knot for almost whole Europe (beside Turkey)). They have so much higher natality rate then us (mostly because of low education). What we get from that? 85% or more Albanians in one part of our country and 15% of us. Thats how problem begins. I am not trying to reduce our guilt in whole case but thats the facts. I'm not even sure what is our guilt except of we didn't want to listen US and some other powerful countries. Which is pretty logical. Imagine same situation in your country (i think you have problem with Mexican immigrants - not sure). And imagine that Soviets tell you that you should give Mexicans that land to govern (on some way). Sounds odd isn't it. And I feel pain in my hearth because of the all lies I heard on foreign news which puts down image of us (Serbians - maybe it is better to say Yugoslavians) in the world. And for so many old (VERY old and non estimate art and culture treasure) churches and monasteries.


Again sorry for my bad english (must put it in signature).

This is base of story. Please tell your opinions, all are welcomed. And ask questions if you seek for knowledge.

[edit on 13-11-2007 by robija]

[edit on 13-11-2007 by robija]

[edit on 13-11-2007 by robija]

Originally posted by elevatedone

Originally posted by robija
Yes that's totally right but again it is not directly about Kosovo. Please I need contribution people. Very important theme for me.

May I ask, are you preparing a paper / report for school? I don't care either way, just wondering.

No. Much bigger then that. It is a matter of emotions.

[edit on 13-11-2007 by robija]

No comments. Too bad.

A lot of what your saying I know to be true, I wish I had the knowledge you do I could comment further. They tried to make Milosevic out to be a butcher, but they never found the alleged massacres/mass graves (it was a civil war not a genocide). The KLA were no saints either, there were a lot of criminal elements in the KLA. I feel for your people it was just a FUBAR situation that the U.S. and Western Europe should have allowed to be dealt with internally.

Exactly how would we feel if another nation or the U.N. told us that we had to do something with the Mexicans that are residing here.

Milosevic was in start good politician. It looks like he is future for us. Very smart and intelligent man. But too greedy, unfortunately. It would be nice to resolve this crisis peacefully but i am afraid it is too late for that. To many wrong moves. We didn't lobby, didn't pay attention to "big" countries... And KLA or originally UCK is definitively a terrorist army. On every aspect except USA don't call them like that

I have always and will always support Serbia in their fight to keep the integrity of their nation, and their national lands. Kosovo is and will be Serbia, regardless of what UN or NATO decide to do with it. Attack against Serbia by NATO was unprovoked, illegal by NATO's own mandates, and had nothing to do with so called "genocide" or Albanians.

The NATO attack against Serbia and the resulting separation of Kosovo from Serbia (not to mention Montenegro and Republika Srpska), was a demonstration of how a clear war of aggression (by NATO) against a sovereign nation defending its historical territory from insurgents can go completely unnoticed, with not so much as even an anti-war protest. We saw massive protests against the war in Iraq and Vietnam, but no one in the West even cared to question war in Kosovo. Why? Because of the falsely termed "genocide", or because few Americans died?

What the West has termed "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" was nothing more than a very complicated civil conflict between 3 sides (Serbs, Croats, and Albanians), all of whom committed certain attrocities on about an equal level. US could have supported anyone in that war, but they chose to specifically oppose Serbs for a political reason - and that was to break up a strong country that was somewhat opposed to NATO in the pose Cold-War Europe. NATO and EU wanted a homogenized Europe, and that is mostly what they got. But in the process they dissected most of Serbia, and created damage that is likely irreversible.

Russia had a chance to support Serbia, but for various reasons (mostly Yeltsin) held back, although they did play a small part. If Russia went in, NATO would never have dared invade, and Kosovo would be today where it belongs.



And now US and NATO are trying to justify their illegal actions in Serbia by trying to put closure to the whole thing and give Kosovo independence. This will hardly solve the conflict as now the Serbians in Kosovo will be the threatened minority (in their own country I might add), but it will also open the Pandora's Box all independence guerilla nutjobs in Europe have been waiting for. If Albanians in Kosovo deserve independence, then sure the Basque deserve independence, and North Ireland deserves independence, and Catalonia deserves independence, and so does Transdniester, Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Crimea, Adjaria, and countless other "wanna-be-republics". Who is to say - these insurgents can get their own country, and these can't? Is NATO going to run the whole thing like a kindergarten now? Kosovo will give others justificitation to fight for dissection of nations to give minorities independence, just because they are minorities. And there are lots and lots of people who want independence. NATO just granted Albanians their, for no justified reason. Who is next? This reminds me of how nations were carved with the Allied knife after the end of WWI. Oh yeah - that lasted long.

Kosovo must remain with Serbia, even if a UN protectorate. If it is granted independence, there is no way back, and the future only holds more conflicts. Albanians already have a country, one which they [snip]up so bad the migration from it is still in full swing. But Kosovo is the heart of Serbia, historically and culturally. So what if Albanians decided it was a fine point to migrate to? The only country that stands in the way of Kosovo independence is Russia (besides Serbia - but it has no say as it has been reduced to nothing on political scale). Who knows how long Russia's support will last.

But this is a warning to all of Europe - Kosovo's independence will set a malicious precendent. Europe stands much more to lose from it than to gain. Public outcry against the NATO's war there was almost nonexistant, and it is troubling how the Western propaganda has allowed this war and the War Trials in Hague (which were a farce more than anything) to go relatively unnoticed and unopposed.

Do Not Circumvent ATS automatic Censors

[edit on 11-15-2007 by worldwatcher]

Oh man. Great post. 1000 x thanks! But unfortunately everyone is deaf and blind. Thank you again.

I am curious (because I really don't know) how Kosovo is the seat of Serbian Orthodoxy. Could you explain that?

Everything I have ever read (which was quite a lot) indicated that Kosovo's prime imporatnce was Kosovo Polje and the battle against the Ottoman invaders. Serbia (rightly or wrongly, I am not well versed enough in the history to judge) claims to have been the bulkwart against the Ottoman takeover of Europe and it all happened in 1389 on Kosovo Polje.
This is (for everyone involved) an emotional subject.
But it seems to me that the Balkans in general and Kosovo in particular are screwed any way they go. The western half of the Balkans (Macadonia, Croatia) want tighter alliances with Western Europe. Serbia is, has been and always will be tightly connected to whatever government runs Russia. Eastern Balkans want to be under that sphere of influence. Kosovo, poor Kosovo is stuck in the middle with a growing Muslim population that looks increasingly Southward towards the Middle East, an Orthodox community desperate to stay unified with Serbia (and hence Russia) and the rest of the West looking at it as a failed state needing UN Protectorate status I think the region will eventually fall into chaos once again.
Tito managed such a fractuous region by force. No one was allowed to discuss that they hated Catholics, or Muslims, or the Orthodox (and let's not even go into the fate of the Roma in the Balkans) lest they be crushed. There were no differences, only Yugoslavs. This forced the inherit hatred of these groups to fester beneath the surface. It only needed a Milosevic to overreach in his desire to create a "Greater Serbia" to make it all explode.
May God have mercy on everyone involved in the region, because you all certainly show no mercy to each other.


[edit on 15-11-2007 by observer]

I have travelled fairly widely in Serbia - though not into Kosovo unfortunately. My impression is that Kosovo really is culturally and historicaly part fo Serbia and I personally am against the complete independence of Kosovo from Serbia at the moment.

I stress that at the moment because the current ethnic situation in Kosovo is highly artificial and in no way represents the sort of ethnic composition that we would expect in a peaceful area. If Serbian forces had not clamped down so hard on Albanians in Kosovo over the decades, and if Albanians in Kosovo had not eventually resopnded by forcing out the Serbian population then the current ethnic situation would not exist. The claims for autonomy from Albanians are founded on their own ethnic cleansing programme followed in the late 1990s, and as such should not form the base for a long-term, just change of sovreignty over the area.

My own point of view is that a way should be found for Kosovo to retain somemeaningful autonomy under Serbian control, to allow for what is needed, which is properly multi-ethnic governance of the region, and ultimately to make it possible for the displaced Serbian population to return to their homes in Kosovo, and for those Serbians who want to live in the cradle land of their country to do so (but, again, a programme of aggressive repopulation pusued by Belgrade is bound to stir up the same probolems again). Once that Kosovo is a safe place to live for all ethnicities only then does it make sense to ask questions abuot long-term governance. Not before.

Well, that's my view....

Cheers.

Rob.

@observer

Kosovo is cradle of our orthodox culture because there our orthodox beliefs started with Cirilo (822-869) and Metodie (815-885). This two people were I think Macedonians and them teach us about orthodox religion. Guess where - in Kosovo first. On Kosovo you can find many monasteries and churches (some over 700-800 years old). On Kosovo was founded first two arhiepiscopies by St. Sava. "Raska" and "Prizrenska" arhiepiscopia. So Kosovo is cradle of our ortodox religion. Don't have doubt in it.

The Diocese of Raska and Prizren is one of the oldest dioceses of the Serbian Orthodox Church. It comprises the vast area of Kosovo, Metohija and the Raska region in Southern Serbia. The seat of the Diocese is Prizren, the ancient medieval Serbian capital. The Diocese is known for its many old monasteries and churches from the Middle Ages. Despite numerous invaders who devastated many of these sacred monuments the rich Orthodox Christian tradition in this region has been preserved.
Kosovo and Metohia, two central regions of perennial Serbia, are the very essence of Serbian spiritual, cultural identity and statehood since Middle Ages to date. The cultural and demographic strength of the Serbs is best illustrated by the presence of 1.500 monuments of Serbian culture identified so far. Numerous outstanding noble Serbian families used to live in these regions, as families Brankovic, Hrebeljanovic, Music, Vojinovic, some of which were the inceptors of Serbian dynasties.
And just like our patriarch Pavle said "Wisdom will preserve us from wolves, and kindness will prevent us from turning into wolves". He is our holy man (real holy - not like "standard" spoiled cleir). He will be saint one day. That man don't use automobile whenever is possible and he is shining goodness from himself.
Look here:
www.kosovo.net...
www.kosovo.net...
www.kosovo.net...
www.serbia-info.com...

one thing more: As many people thinks, Albanians are NOT muslims (if they are - i think the outcome of this situation would be so much different), they are catholics and orthodox.

@d60944
I agree (like so many other Serbians) that outcome must be peaceful but that doesn't help because someone already have Kosovo out of Serbia. So it is not the reason for that. Reason is (like I said before) money from Albanians to US. Lobby. Serbians doesn't lobby at all. That is the main reason I'm sure of it. And Belgrade doesn't have program of aggressive repopulation (Milosevic maybe had that one - but we throw him out of his throne). Belgrade now trying to keep Kosovo in Serbia borders because of our people there and because refugees from Kosovo which now live wide in central Serbia, and they surely want to go back to their homes.

@observer
"Serbia (rightly or wrongly, I am not well versed enough in the history to judge) claims to have been the bulkwart against the Ottoman takeover of Europe and it all happened in 1389 on Kosovo Polje.
This is (for everyone involved) an emotional subject."

We were under Ottoman empire around 500 years. And yes that battle in Kosovo Polje has something to do with emotional but it is not the main reason. Read above.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by robija]

[edit on 15-11-2007 by robija]

Originally posted by robija
It is a matter of emotions.

With a base like that, serious discussion seems ruled out. Of course it is obvious and quite natural that you as a native Serb (I guess) will have emotions on the issue, so do I as a European and a socialist. But I keep my emotions to myself as I'm not looking for fight but for informations and explanations in the debate.

When Ulbricht's "Schütchmaur gegen die Revanchismus und Kapitalismus" came down, we said it could never happen in Yugoslavia. When Romania collapsed, we said at least it won't happen in Yugoslavia.

In general terms I'm familiar with the history of modern Yugoslavia and particular that of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Except at one point, we didn't know that Tito was the one and only factor that held it all together. We were indoctrinated to believe it was a united people of different ethnics, but brothers, that ran the most wellfunctioning socialist state of them all. It was THE success story of Socialism. We were even taught to believe Serbs and Croats was litteraly one people, euphemized in the term 'serbo-croatic' which we also believed to be one language, written in respectively Latin and Cyrilic alphabet.

It was one of the lesser chocking lies of the war, the most chocking was of course the ethnic hate of proportions not seen since WW2. I knew then what we had been fed was nothing but lies, and it was hard to swollow for a former foxy red socialist (call me liberal socialist today). Worst though was the savagery and cruelty, the bestial traits it revealed, from all the sides, but through our biased media focused on Serbian attrocities, which I also believe to be the far worst and most of them.

Don't you think an instigater of ethnic hate and cleansing like Karadiz or a massmurder like Mladic should be held accountable? Whether it be at an international tribunal like the one in Hague, maloy calls a "farce" or otherwise? Yes, UN should be held accountable too for what they let happen in Screbenica - but that's another story.

To robija I have to say, concerning Kosova, I don't believe most of the 85% majority of Albanians should have slipped over the border since the days of Enver Hoxha, and that the picture you paint of Albanians must be one of the most biased ever seen on ATS.

One thing I would like to know is how the battle of Kosova, which was a defeat, a mass slaughter of Serbs and their allied by the Ottomans and the end a significant European 14th century Empire, how can that become a symbol of your nation, when it in fact was the end of the former glory of that nation? A masochist trait in the national character or a commitment to resurrection? Somehow I find it pathetic.

Beside from the debate I come to ATS to get information and contribute informations, so I would really appriciate if you could enlighten me on that issue of national identity.

Maybe you also can explain how Tito managed to keep the ghost of nationalism at bay for so long and so effectively as he seemingly did.

Also about the war, and let me say I was no fan of the US/Nato way it was handled and see the bombing of Beograd bordering war crime, if you can give plaussible explanations to why the ethnic diversity, to the world a textbook example of ethnic unity, how that bonfire could explode in the Barbary we wittnessed. There most be more to it than just because the man was gone.

Added: Meanwhile your latest post has come up, and you offer some kind of explanation, but still not as why the battle has such a national significance. Most nations tries to forget their defeats. And this one grates in my ear "Wisdom will preserve us from wolves, and kindness will prevent us from turning into wolves". Where is the 'kindness' in the recent history of your country?

[edit on 15/11/2007 by khunmoon]

@khunmoon

I don't have intention to argue (on a bad way) with anyone here. But must say that your post is missing every target that it should hit.

I will explain about battle on Kosovo polje. And I don't want to explain anything else because it's already been explained by me and other contributers above. I have feeling that you didn't read all posts or didn't understand it. So no point in looking back (over my shoulder).

Battle in Kosovo polje. battled in 1389 on our orthodox religious "holiday" - Vidovdan - 28. jun. (or 15. jun by Julian calendar) is much more than one battle. It is really hard to explain with my bad english and with words anyway. That battle lasts until today like battle for defending the Serbians from all kind of aggressors. Yes we lose (by your and many other points of view) but we also win. You asks now HOW? - i guess. We win because we fought in that battle with great heroism against much stronger aggressor. Even if we lose, our hero Milos Obilic managed to reach the Sultan Murat's tent and to kill him in front of his men (like he promised to Car Lazar and others on dinner night before battle). We showed (unlike many other countries) that we can't be ruled by them or any other aggressors (even if we needed 500 hundred years to throw Ottoman empire where it really belongs (in Turkey)). And we showed that against Habsburg Monarchy and again against Nazis and again against NATO. We are proud people. You don't know much about us (Serbians - even if I am Serbo-croatian - and if it is by you - i should not exists - i guess) for example how do we react on NATO bombardment. We were on bridges protecting them with our bodies, we wore signs target on our chest. If you think about that maybe you manage to learn something about us.

I hope that i succeeded in bringing that battle closer to you and in explaining why it is so important about our people.

And Serbians and Croatians ARE same people in base. I don't know why do you think we are not.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by robija]

I don't see why Serbia must explain the importance of Kosovo. It should be enough to say that it is culturally extremely important. I would not like to have to justify every county of the UK as being important for some measurable, empirical reason: it is enough to say that we are all the same nation and so be it. That is part of what it means to come from my country. Why is Serbia portrayed as unreasonable when it does the same?

...And Serbians and Croatians ARE same people in base. I don't know why do you think we are not.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by robija]

No. Here you are wrong. You think that because of your upbringing and (dare I say it) brainwashing into the beliefs underpinning the whole notion of South Slavic unity. Whereas Croats (along with many other ethnic groups in former YU) have veered sharply away from fact as well, and insisted on the differences - as a result of Serbian centralist policies through much of the 20thC. Neither you nor they will find it easy to realise the degree of subjectivism you hold.

The truth of the kinship of various Slav identities lies somewhere in between the two extremes. But now that truth is a mere issue of history. Cultural identity changes and develops. It exists purely in the minds of people, not in history. (Eg. witness the insistence on seperating out "Serbian" from "Croatian" and "Bosnian", which in a less poltically-charged set of circumstances would be regarded as strong dialect forms).

Read about it on Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Cheers.

Rob.



[edit on 15-11-2007 by d60944]