Pres. Bush, possible Jail time.

Don't be so quick die another day, I guess you missed this story.



Rumsfeld Flees France Fearing Arrest

excerpt:

Former U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld fled France today fearing arrest over charges of "ordering and authorizing" torture of detainees at both the American-run Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and the U.S. military's detainment facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, unconfirmed reports coming from Paris suggest.

U.S. embassy officials whisked Rumsfeld away yesterday from a breakfast meeting in Paris organized by the Foreign Policy magazine after human rights groups filed a criminal complaint against the man who spearheaded President George W. Bush's "war on terror" for six years.

Under international law, authorities in France are obliged to open an investigation when a complaint is made while the alleged torturer is on French soil.

According to activists in France, who greeted Rumsfeld, shouting "murderer" and "war criminal" at the breakfast meeting venue, U.S. embassy officials remained tight-lipped about the former defense secretary's whereabouts citing "security reasons".

Despite your opinions on Keith Olbermann, that was a good story and I respect him more for it. Left/Right is an illusion but it’s the way most people think so you need to level the playing field. He is a necessary evil and it’s not like he’s wrong in that video. Someone needs to balance the scales. If enough people woke up, they could go to jail. I'd be happy just to see the whole crew get forced to resign and go hide under a rock though.

Calling him a newscaster was a mistake on my part on second thought. But still, his opinion is contrasting that of all mainstream media, which is what the majority of Americans listen and believe. Absolutely everyone has the right to their own opinion... but with all the media control, does everyone have an opinion, or do they just agree with what is shown on TV. I hope his comments get people asking questions about what they truly believe. And yeah, they know their guilty, they know the consequences, and the truth will come out....soon.

Originally posted by Raoul Duke
I just heard a report today that Rosie O'Donnell might be getting a program at 9pm (eastern) on MSNBC.

Ha! Lets hope not!

Good article. MSNBC seems to be the lesser evil of the mainstream's, but, none tell the whole truth. The specs of truth that come out are normally guest speaking it, but they are then grilled for their 'beliefs'. Fascism anyone?

Originally posted by Dr Love

Originally posted by Copernicus
The difference between O'Reilly and this guy is that the former works to protect the Bush administration, the latter to bring it down.

Thus completely nullifying each other. The only things that remains are two opposing sides bickering about absolutely everything while the evildoers work behind the scenes. 'They' make it us against us, when it should be us against 'them'.

Like has been said here many times before, there is no left/right, it's just an illusion.

Peace

[edit on 6-11-2007 by Dr Love]

I do not see O'Reilly playing up to Bush and does disagree with Bush even calling the War in Iraq a huge mistake, but O’Reilly does treat Bush with respect as the President of the United States, and respect for the President (who ever it is) is something so many lack and disrespect to the president actually shows disrespect to our nation too and what it stands for. Olbermann on the other hand plays his little emotional outburst game as part of his act. It has become one of his traits that I do not find genuine.

So I see O'Reilly as a conservative traditional who leans towards libertarian views too and that is rare in the media arena, but Olbermann is just another dime a dozen Hollywood type liberal.


[edit on 6-11-2007 by Xtrozero]

So I see O'Reilly as a conservative traditional who leans towards libertarian views too and that is rare in the media arena, but Olbermann is just another dime a dozen Hollywood type liberal.

I don't see much that's libertarian about O'Reilly:

Legalization of Marijuana: He's opposed.
Pornography: He's opposed.
Patriot Act: Not sure, I believe he supported it.
Homosexuality: He condemns it.
Legalization of Prostitution: He's opposed.
War on Drugs: I believe he supports it.

I could go on, the guy is just not a libertarian in any sense that I know of.

I don't see much 'Hollywood' about Keith, he's a former sports guy who's now giving his take on the news...


[edit on 6-11-2007 by Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Raoul Duke

I don't see much that's libertarian about O'Reilly:

Legalization of Marijuana: He's opposed.
War on Drugs: I believe he supports it.

Yes he is as you say here, but he supports Libertarian views on education, gun control, Families/childern, Free trade, health care, welfare and poverty.

Pornography: He's opposed.
Homosexuality: He condemns it.
Legalization of Prostitution: He's opposed.

So is being a libertarian all about just sex and drugs? I would think there is more to the party or its views.

Most libertarians support the right of the Boy Scouts of America and any other private organizations, businesses and clubs to hirere/fire/include/exclude whom they desire. Bill is not against gays, he is just againsts their push for gays rights such as govenment reconized marrage. Libertarians are against all hate crime laws, and so is Bill.
Libertarians believe in limited government and capitalism, and so does Bill. He is always defending the rich in that they are what generates jobs and prosperity, and are who pay majority of all taxes in America.

Patriot Act: Not sure, I believe he supported it.
I could go on, the guy is just not a libertarian in any sense that I know of.

He does support it, but mainly with the view (right or wrong) we are in a war and extreme mesures are sometimes justified. I'm not sure if he would supprt it if we were not in a war.

So I still hold to my statement that he leans towards libertarian on many of his views, even though he is still conservative and traditional.

I don't see much 'Hollywood' about Keith, he's a former sports guy who's now giving his take on the news...
[edit on 6-11-2007 by Raoul Duke]

What I mean by this is he is a rather well off guy by his talents, but tend to bad mouth everyone that is rich and not a democrat, but to be rich and a democrat is ok. It is more of an attitude than a stance that is very prevalent throughout the media industry.

Keith Obermann was just a sports announcer and now just a leftist hack for the liberal seat sniffer crowd.

Bush Jail Time?

Not defending Bush or his policies but if you think he is going to get jail time you're highly delusional...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I do not see O'Reilly playing up to Bush and does disagree with Bush even calling the War in Iraq a huge mistake, but O’Reilly does treat Bush with respect as the President of the United States, and respect for the President (who ever it is) is something so many lack and disrespect to the president actually shows disrespect to our nation too and what it stands for.

Maybe Bush hasnt done anything to earn that respect?

And who told you that you disrespect the country if you disrespect the president? Thats two completely different things. You can be loyal to what a country stands for (like the Constitution) without being loyal to a president who is ripping it apart.

I know that a lot of people think you should show blind respect for someone based on rank and position, no matter what they do, but I just dont feel that way.

Bush betrayed the American people. Perhaps Cheney played a big part in this, and Bush is weak, but it still doesnt take away his responsibility for it. He had the trust of the American people and he used it to destroy the country. 9 trillion dollar debt and your economy is about to crash. That does not happen by accident! And I wont even get into the artificial wars where he lies to the American people with a straight face...

Protect the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. This has happened before in Germany, so there is no excuse of not recognizing the same pattern all over again in the US.


[edit on 7-11-2007 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Xtrozero


Ok, seems like you're saying economically O'Reilly is libertarian. It's just when you say he is traditional conservative I take it to mean he is socially conservative, and libertarians are socially liberal and economically conservative (this defines the libertarian ideology). I would choose to call O'Reilly a cultural conservative Republican, but I think I see your point now.

I hate Bush! but I don't wish him jail time. He's confused and idiotic, but we must not punish him. All I ask is that god forgives him, for his sins.

Originally posted by jedimiller
I hate Bush! but I don't wish him jail time. He's confused and idiotic, but we must not punish him. All I ask is that god forgives him, for his sins.

I'm an agnostic, I say fit him for some prison blues, lol...

reply to post by VveaponS2K


I felt the same exact way, maybe there is hope.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Echoing Copernicus' response: What the people of this country have lost sight of is the fact that WE are the country and the framework is spelled out in agonizing detail in the Constitution. That same Constitution grants certain specific rights and responsibilities to the government. Read that again: certain specific rights and responsibilities. It does not put the President or the government in a position of making the rules. They all swore an oath to uphold and defend The Constitution. Not parts of it. They have no right to ignore the 'inconvenient' parts. And I hold the Democratic Congress equally responsible so don't pull out the tired left/right rep/dem BS. The whole government has been taken over by spineless, traitorous, treasonous schills. How anyone can not see this is truly unbelievable. You either follow the Constitution or you don't. No gray area. No middle ground. If the former, you're doing your job. If the latter, you've violated your oath and have committed treason.

Originally posted by JohnnyP
Keith Obermann was just a sports announcer and now just a leftist hack for the liberal seat sniffer crowd.

As opposed to O'Reilly shill for the Republicon closeted religious right soliciting gay sex in a bathroom crowd?

Bush Jail Time?

Not defending Bush or his policies but if you think he is going to get jail time you're highly delusional...

Good luck to Bush, traveling to Europe when his presidency's over...

[edit on 7-11-2007 by Raoul Duke]

Wow. I saw that segment on Levine getting waterboarded, and let me tell you that was the pg version of the real thing. But even so, it was viscous outright toture.

I don't know much of this man Levine (I'm not big into politics), but I do know Keith Olberman , have been watching him on msnbc for years, and let me tell you my respect for both of these men just went up 1000 fold.

Especially Olberman. Wow, he's got some brass ones to make those statements, and I enjoyed, even savored, every single word of it, because Bush deserves it, he is a criminal, and he needs to be held accountable for his and his offices acts, and that is the truth.

It's been a long time since I heard someone stand up and speak that way about Bush, or any recent president (barring the Clinton/Monica scandal) on a show with such a large political based viewing audience. So great job laying out there Olberman, you know he just put his whole carrer on the line with those scathing words.

So for Olberman's words, and Levine putting his body on the line, and HUGE THUMBS UP!

reply to post by kephas


Freedom of speech and expression doesn't mean that other people can't also express their opinions which may be contrary. That's not fascism, unless you think that people of differing opinions don't have the right to criticize views. Unless it's official government policy that keeps people from speaking, you can't really make claims like that.

Bush and Cheney are murdering scum who are enemies of America and the Constitution. They BOTH deserve a one way ticket to the Hauge for War Crimes trials, and aftyer conviction, I believe they should both be executed. The O'Leily's and Limbaughs of this world are sick money grubbing traitors as well.

This nation has been TAKEN, people..taken by forces that are against all we hold dear and sacred. The Cheney/ Bush cabal has brought us the 9-11 attacks, the falling of our currency and the worst times ahead America has ever seen, and all for dollars, money, lucre, filthy gold bars that they worship with the fervor of some whacked out televangelist. Americans have allowed themselves to become lazy, dumbed down idiots who believe anything they are told on the major networks.

Fox news and the WSJ and Rpert the Madman all contribute to the decline and fall of our once great nation. Bush and his criminal pals have ruined this nation, in a few short years they have destroyed the basis for our laws and for our decency around the world, making us hated and despised all over the planet. And for good reason. We are a people now that is ready to shufle off to a Halliburton camp and thank the jackboots for kicking the door shut behind us. People who worship authority and will do anything they are told except to take a stand for the things that matter.

O'Realliy is a hippocrite of the worst sort; a big brash coward who calls the Fox news Nazis to harrass anyone who he doesn't like or who disagrees with him..he is a filthy dog wrapped in stinking fish wrap spewing garbage day and night and claiming to represent the right wing nut jobs who believe what the White House spews every day.

I believe NOTHING that the govenment says or does..I think that Bush and Cheney and many more neocon traitors should be dragged into a courty and charged and convicted of the many horrific crimes they have committed, from 9-11 to many other murders..wars begun for PROFIT only..no threats against us. The myth of Al-Queda..what a joke. There IS NO Al_ Queda outside of what the CIA created long ago. The CIA trained the ' highjackers ' on secure US military bases..but does this get any attention from the corrupted media? No way. Of course not. That might make the sheep wake up!!

Anyone who actually believes that the Bush/Cheney crowd are decent human beings and good Americans must be living in a cave with Osama..because there is NO proof whatsoever that the ' leaders ' we have now and anything more than terrorists wrapped in American clothes with an American flag lapel on their 1000 dollar suits...Bush is a LIAR and MURDERER, Cheney is WORSE. Bush is a fool and drunk and sycophant and front man for the cabal, so they would have a dummy and ' good ol;d boy ' to fool the stupid Republicans who are always so thrilled when they get a podium for a moment to torment the intelligent with their drivel.

This nation is GONE, and will never return. It is too far gone now..and most people have no idea what the problems are. Gas over 3 bucks a gallon with all the oil needed flowing freely..making HUGE profits for the Bush oil cabal, as planned. This is ALL about money, vast money, so Bush and his cronies can retire to some safe haven and avoid justice after they ruin America and make us all slaves to the corporate masters that pull the strings. If only Bush and Cheney and O'Reilly and Limbaugh only had one neck I could snap!!

reply to post by jtma508


The word treason is a pretty powerful word. When folks around here throw it around nonchalantly, it devalues it. There are many in government with whom I disagree with, but that doesn't mean that they are treasonous. It's the same sort of thing as when folks make comparisons to Hitler, Stalin, etc... it shows a serious lack of historical perspective, and the extent of the evil of these folks on mass scales.
There is no one alive today(be it terrorist, government official, or otherwise) that can be compared to the aforementioned folks, and this isn't to say that there aren't some bad apples out there, who are stealing oxygen, but they aren't even on a scale approaching Hitler/Stalin.

Here are criteria that I look at before I would make assertions of treason-

-disloyalty by virtue of subversive behavior
-treachery: an act of deliberate betrayal
-A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor.
-a purposeful betrayal, usually constituting aid to one's enemies
-engages in conduct that assists by any means whatever, with intent to assist another country or an organisation.
-uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government

en.wikipedia.org...

United States
To avoid the abuses of the English law (including executions by Henry VIII of those who criticized his repeated marriages), treason was specifically defined in the United States Constitution, the only crime so defined. Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

-In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation. A person who commits treason is known as a traitor.

The problem around here that I see with the use of the word is this phenomenon-

At times, the term "traitor" has been levelled as a political epithet, regardless of any verifiable treasonable action. In a civil war or insurrection, the winners may deem the losers to be traitors. Likewise the term "traitor" is used in heated political discussion – typically as a slur against political dissidents, or against officials in power who are perceived as failing to act in the best interest of their constituents. In certain cases, as with the German Dolchstoßlegende, the accusation of treason towards a large group of people can be a unifying political message.


Whether you agree/disagree with a politician, or think that they're doing a bad job- that is just that- they're doing a bad job. That's a far different thing than being treasonous. On the otherhand I regularly hear comments around here that would come much closer to the definition, as it is generally understood.




[edit on 7-11-2007 by BlueRaja]

Bill O'Reilly is an old school Democrat. Back before the Democratic party was hijacked by the likes of Moveon.org, code pink, moonbats and hippies, environmental wackos, and the tri-gender-bi-whatevers. O'Reilly is a Democrat in the mold of FDR and JFK

People only act on strong emotion. A prisoner will only talk if they fear or love you. Water boarding creates tons of fear and it makes people talk. It sounds like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed sung like a bird and that help saved lives. Does anyone know how much of what he told was true and how much was an outright lie?


here is my question to you: if the American government came out and said they waterboarded whomever and after being waterboarded he said that a bomb was planted in your city was going togo off in the next couple of hours. would you 1) say that waterboarding is torture and the results aren't reliable and you and your family would stay 2) say the waterboarding is torture and if you took advantage of the information you would be just as guilty as those who did the waterboarding and would stay 3) get the heck out of dodge 4) get the heck out of dodge then complain about the use of waterboarding