Input on the real Holocaust.

Ok, well let me start out by saying that whoever thinks that Hitler actually killed 6 million Jews and is on this thread just to rat out our theories needs to leave, because I genuinely want to talk about it. I want some input on what really happened during the Holocaust.

Ok, well first let's establish that it is physically and statistically impossible for Hitler, or the Third Reich if you will, to have exterminated 6 million Jews. I heard recently that someone believed the reason the Jews overemphasized it was to brainwash the Jews into reuniting, which as everyone should know, is a sign of the end of days. Now, to flip the coin:

Josef Stalin, premier of the Soviet Union during World War 2, exterminated 12 million people, and that's just what the Russians have told us. Historians(my brother is a historian by the way so my facts should be pretty good) estimate the real number to be close to 14 million. The reason FDR wanted to bring Hitler to his knees was for two reasons: 1) His front in the Middle East was a threat to the global increase of petroleum prices, and if we were going to fight the Japanese we needed fuel. For this reason, he put the sickest, most bad ass general at the time in the African front: General Patton. Reason 2) Since FDR was going to sign some sort of socialist pact with Stalin, we needed Germany out of our way because FDR wanted to funnel troops into Japan through Russia. Google all the pictures of every summit and meeting that the Allied powers had during World War 2 (the Tehran Conference for ex.) and Churchill is never sitting next to Stalin. He was allies by association. I don't know what happened to Hitler and Stalin at the beginning of the war, but they broke ties really early. Why????

If anyone has any input, please feel free to respond to my thread, I would greatly appreciate it. And remember, if you are here to tell me that I'm wrong, leave because that's not what this thread is for.

It is very courageous of you to bring this up. It needs to be talked about because mainstream accepted history is largely inaccurate and I believe that there is much unrest in the souls of the world because closure is impossible until the truth is known.

All tolled, the worldwide casualties of WWII were 56 million. And yet it seems to only matter about 6 million of just one race.

The true holocaust, IMO, was WWII, itself. And it was not any single individual’s desire or fault that such an appalling global massacre happened…for the second time!

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In order to fully understand what happened in Nazi Germany, it is first necessary to understand the events leading to WWII.

The United State’s involvement in WWII began a year before Pearl Harbor, in December of 1940:

From HistoryNet:

On December 9, however, a navy seaplane slid alongside the Tuscaloosa to deliver mail to the president. Among the stacks of newspapers and correspondence was a long letter from British Prime Minister Winston Churchill. In his remarkable, 4,000-word discourse, Churchill detailed the military situation in Great Britain and across Europe. After a year of war with Germany, he wrote, Britain was running out of money to pay for war goods and needed American help. He could not, however, suggest exactly how the president would provide it.

Hitler invaded Poland in 1939 and this led to Britain eventually declaring war on Germany. Britain declared war on Germany and a year later found itself unable to finish what had been started. Many countries declared war on Germany before Germany declared war on any country.

Hitler had done remarkable things in Germany following that country’s devastating aftermath following WWI. Many things were taken away as terms of the Treaty of Versailles, which was the resolution of WWI. The treaty was generally unfair to the country of Germany. The political powers of the world were rather antagonistic toward the country of Germany following the 'Great War' (later called WWI) because of the actions of Kaiser Wilhelm II, who was the head of state in Germany at that time. The assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, in Sarajevo, by a Bosnian Serb was the main catalyst for starting the war, but Kaiser Wilhelm was a major aggressive factor in his own right. Nevertheless, the actions of an unethical leader should never be held against the people over which he ruled.

Here is a list of the events of September, 1939:

• Invasion of Poland by Germany; Switzerland and Finland declare their neutrality; the British government declares general mobilization.
  
• The United Kingdom and France issue a joint ultimatum to Germany, requiring German troops to evacuate Polish territory within 12 hours; Mussolini declares Italian neutrality; Ireland also declares neutrality; the Swiss government orders a general mobilization of its forces; the National Service (Armed Forces) Act is passed in Britain.
  
• Hitler rejects Allied ultimatum; the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and France declare war on Germany; Belgium declares its neutrality as King Leopold III assumes personal command of the Belgian armed forces. British passenger liner SS Athenia en-route from Glasgow to Montreal is sunk by U-30.
  
• The Royal Air Force attacks the German fleet at Wilhelmshaven and bombs the Kiel Canal.
  
• The United States declares neutrality; General Jan Smuts replaces James Herzog as Prime Minister of South Africa; French troops begin minor offensive towards Saarbrucken.
  
• South Africa declares war on Germany; Spain declares its neutrality, but Franco makes a secret pledge to Hitler to aid the Axis cause.
  
• National Registration Act passed in Britain, introducing identity cards and allowing the government to control labor.
  
• Canada declares war on Germany.
  
• Invasion of Eastern Poland by the Soviet Union.
  
• Warsaw surrenders; Polish government in exile set up in Paris.

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This is only the start of all that I have to contribute to this thread, but I'll try to present it all in small chunks so that no one loses interest because of it being too hard to take in. It is a rather complicated situation, involving many, many events and people; but the whole picture requires inclusion of all factors.


[edit on 11/5/2007 by queenannie38]

To the OP:

Okay so in your world everything you believe is right and is not open to debate?
This is a public forum, what gives you the right to say that only those who agree with your biaised theories should be allowed to post?

You claim that it was 'physically and statistically impossible' for the Germans to exterminate these people.
Can you please offer some proof or base for this rather startling statement of yours? At least before you go any further or before you insult or hurt people who may be unfortunate enough to browse this thread who may have lost family members during this war or even those whose family include holocaust victims / survivors.

In my opinion you could have easily raised the issue you are interested in without enraging other users simultaneously.

I personally was very disturbed at the black and white footage of thousands of skeletal corpses being bulldozed into mass graves on PBS.
I don't know what your ideal is here OP, just know that it did happen. The most horrific slaughter in our lifetime.

Originally posted by pmexplorer
To the OP:

Okay so in your world everything you believe is right and is not open to debate?
This is a public forum, what gives you the right to say that only those who agree with your biased theories should be allowed to post?

Perhaps it would be more reasonable to request that supporting evidence for either side be given by all participants in the discussion - rather than just reactionary statements based on one's personal understanding of WWII that is based only on what is generally heard and summarily believed, rather than actually researched.

In my opinion you could have easily raised the issue you are interested in without enraging other users simultaneously.

Who's enraged? Are you? Why?

Both my parents lived during WWII and my dad fought for the Allies. My dad was the son of German immigrants and I also have Jewish blood in my family.

EVERYONE lost during WWII...EVERYONE. It was a WORLD war...

I'd like to see the WHOLE truth exposed - with partiality given toward NO certain race or country or leader, rather than the half-truths that have been accepted for over 50 years.

Up until recently, I, too, bought into the mainstream belief that Hitler was a monster and caused the war and therefore was responsible for all deaths resulting from same. Something led me to investigate WWII for reasons unconnected to either Hitler or Germany...and the more I dug, the more I found that totally astounded me and caused me to realize that the greatest atrocity of WWII was not the war but the aftermath of disinformation.

I'm sympathetic toward ALL who suffered from the war...but won't justify the actions of ANY involved - what's done is done. Nevertheless, to deny ignorance is to investigate into even the most uncomfortable issues. And if done with courtesy it should offend no one. Those who are offended are perhaps unprepared to have their own opinions challenged with facts and possible re-evaluation of ideas.

Why is this in "Conpiracies in Religion"? The original poster has issue with the way recent history is being shown and told by books, video, and first-hand accounts (as well as other testimonies). All of these are being told by people of different religions, faiths and systems of belief.

Originally posted by saint4God
Why is this in "Conpiracies in Religion"? The original poster has issue with the way recent history is being shown and told by books, video, and first-hand accounts (as well as other testimonies). All of these are being told by people of different religions, faiths and systems of belief.

The best way to study history is by direct examination of the documents written by the people who lived at the time - this includes treaties, speeches, letters, news clippings, and any other document available.

In the field of 'recent history' we are very fortunate in that there is an abundance of resources available of this nature.

Such references are not altered and present the viewpoints and opinions of the time without any inaccuracy. Even our memories are not so objective and most books are written from a particular point of view and aim, therefore, to promote that single perspective at the expense of all others.

BUT of course in any situation involving more than one person, country, or government, there are an equal number of viewpoints!

This thread is based on a false premise and with a closed mind. What I find even further appealing is the support of revisionist history treated as real history. This thread has train wreck written all over it.

OP read some history books while your still in high school and let your brother finish the 8th grade before you start quoting facts and figures from him. You may want to read up on military history before passing judgment about Patton. I'm fairly certain he could care less on your take of WW2 or his bad-assed ness. BTW: You do realize he had several generals over him that told him what to do.

After looking at your post again, let me restate, read some real military history books found at a library. Don't use the internet because it has too many people trying to re-write history. This is the only way they can do it as no legitimate publisher would allow revisionist history to be published in book form.

Queenanne38: golly your cutting and pasting work is really, really cool. It's like you actually know how to look up bad information from the internet. You base facts and then have the wrong conclusions. Your info from the end of WW1 to 1939 has nothing to do with the OP question about the Holocaust or his brothers thoughts about Stalin.

I feel for everyone who died in the holocaust. Man at his very worst. I think we should be very critical of how many people were said to be slaughtered in the "gas chambers" though... It's hard to maintain a lethal gas facility without hermedictly sealed chambers.

You tell 'em hinky...snort, phsshhhad. edit, already in enough trouble of late.

[edit on 6-11-2007 by jpm1602]

want to know the truth not supposed to be known, only about 20,000 jews died during the holocaust, the cause of exaguration, id rather not tell. there are things about history that would blow your mind.

The British Mandate and the Balfour Declaration of 1917 caused early conflicts in Palestine between the Arabs and the Jews.

After the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916, the British had made two promises regarding the territory in the Middle East it was expecting to acquire. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their support of the British; and in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home in Palestine. The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support. At the same time, British interest in Zionism dates to the rise in importance of the British Empire’s South Asian enterprises in the early 19th century, concurrent with "the Great Game" and planning for the Suez Canal. Eminent British figures such as Queen Victoria, her son King Edward VII, Prime Minister Lloyd George, 19th century Prime Minister Lord Palmerston and Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour were among the enthusiastic proponents of Zionism.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I.
The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a National home for the Jewish people within Palestine‎ with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.
The statement was issued through the efforts of Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, the principal Zionist leaders based in London but, as they had asked for the reconstitution of Palestine as “the” Jewish national home, the Declaration fell short of Zionist expectations.

British Empire blamed for modern conflicts

The UK Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, has blamed Britain's imperial past for many of the modern political problems, including the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Kashmir dispute.
(..)
He said the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - in which Britain pledged support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine - and the contradictory assurances given to Palestinians, were not entirely honourable.
"The Balfour declaration and the contradictory assurances which were being given to Palestinians in private at the same time as they were being given to the Israelis - again, an interesting history for us, but not an honourable one," he said.

From Wiki:

Exodus 1947 was a ship carrying Jewish emigrants, that left France on July 11, 1947 with the intent of taking its passengers to Palestine, then controlled by the British. Most of the emigrants were Holocaust survivor refugees, who had no legal immigration certificates to Palestine. Following wide media coverage, the British Royal Navy seized the ship, and deported all its passengers back to Europe.

A related news article from Daily Mail UK

Exodus passengers were sent back to France, where they refused to disembark and went on hunger strike, before being sent to detention in Germany.
Many of the passengers were eventually detained in military camps in Cyprus along with other Jews deported from Palestine.

edit

[edit on 6-11-2007 by jpm1602]

The interesting thing to me in revisionist history goes back to something one of the original posters mentioned. Original documents and those authenticated by historians seem the most reliable. My understanding is that the Nazi's were maniacal (pardon the term) note takers. They logged prisoners. Has anyone undertaken an effort to cross-reference all Nazi concentration camp logs with those of the Wiesenthal center. There are plenty of kooks on both sides attempting to discredit record-keeping but I wonder if anyone has compared actual logs. The only thing I can state from personal experience is that my father who was in Hungary during the escalation period where Hungarian Jews were supposed to have been rounded up and exterminated as expeditously as possible, claims that the Hungarian people (him I suppose) had NO IDEA what was going on. Several possibilities: 1) My father was a Nazi or a symphathizer and was lying (something I have considered); 2) The general publics were kept shielded from the mass extermination; 3) There was some overexageration in the death count. Living in a city of 5 Million, I don't think a population of 6 M is such an unbelievable number to have been exterminated. I do think that the earlier stated figure of some 56 M is pretty startling and I'm interested in how the person that stated that figure breaks down the dead...by nationality, location, faith, whatever. In a supposedly more primitive world some 50 years ago, to have wiped out the equivalent of one fourth the US population would be pretty difficult to do in a matter of 2 years. I'm not taking ANY sides on this despite my belief that atrocities occurred and are unforgivable or pardonable even in death. But, the mathemetician in me is interested in sources and actual historical record. Doesn't anyone have it?

Originally posted by hinky
Queenanne38: golly your cutting and pasting work is really, really cool.

Would you rather I just stated things in my own words without references? I personally prefer that the documents speak for themselves, due to the controversial nature of this issue. I'm not interested on promoting personal opinions but rather in providing factual references and links to my sources so that others can investigate for themselves, if they so desire.

It's like you actually know how to look up bad information from the internet.

What is 'bad' information? That which you don't agree with? If you don't think it is 'good' information, then by all means, provide some!

Your info from the end of WW1 to 1939 has nothing to do with the OP question about the Holocaust or his brothers thoughts about Stalin.

The Holocaust happened during WWII - and one of the main contributing causes of WWII was WWI. If you don't think that is true, then do your own research and then provide a rebuttal. Otherwise your statements are going to be regarded as personal opinion.

wow jpm so i misspelled a word or two whats your problem seriously, you make a post with no opinion no argument and then im a mess, get your act together, just because i know more than you that im not supposed to be saying is no reason to be jealous.

Somebody read my post and respond rather than petty quarreling. Are we having and honest discussion or is this high school poop?

An interesting site which claims numbers on detainees and deaths can be found at www.mtsu.edu...

I cannot validate the accuracy of this information, but someone captured numbers.

Originally posted by Losonczy
I do think that the earlier stated figure of some 56 M is pretty startling and I'm interested in how the person that stated that figure breaks down the dead...by nationality, location, faith, whatever.

You did understand that I was referring to the total deaths caused by WWII worldwide, didn't you? Not just Jews or concentration camp detainees but ALL deaths which resulted from the war, in all countries, both soldiers and civilians.

Second World War Death Count cites 55 million.

Wikipedia actually lists the count at 72 million.

In a supposedly more primitive world some 50 years ago, to have wiped out the equivalent of one fourth the US population would be pretty difficult to do in a matter of 2 years.

WWII lasted from September 1939 until September 1945 - 6 years.

Wiki states that the world population was nearly 2 billion in 1939 and the total killed = 3.9% of that number.

I did understand that you were speaking of total WWII fatalities, I was just interested in the breakdown. 6 years is still a short window to exterminate that many in my estimation. I guess we haven't advanced as much as we've like to believe in the last 50 years. The killing mechanisms have been there all along. I didn't think you were speaking only of the Jews, I'm just interested in the breakdown of those 55 M. If it's that high, I wonder why 6M Jews seems like such an unbelievable number. After all, it's only one tenth of the WWII fatalities over the 6 years you reference.