Chemtrails: Debunking the Peristent Contrail myth

Originally posted by Essan

But why can no-one dispute the meteorological explanation for 'chemtrails'??????

Your question seems disingenuous.

It is not a meteorological explanation of 'chemtrails'.

It is a ' meteorological explanation' for quite normal CONTRAILS.

Are you implying that chemtrails do not exist, because contrails do?

If so, I don't think I need to point out the obvious logical fallacies in this line of thinking.

Well, maybe I do...

Let's say that I am becoming convinced that cats exist, and that I am becoming further convinced that a specific kind of cat exists: a Calico cat.
You and others here then try to convince me that I am wrong, by talking about dogs.
You, and others here then launch into great detail about all manner and types of dogs, and studies of dogs as tho that addresses the question at hand..

Apples and oranges.

Please address the most obvious and striking signature of 'chemtrails' or whatever they are, which is:

The very deliberate MOVEMENTS of these particular jets.
They are characterized by very singular traits (in my my own numerous observations of them over a period of YEARS):

1- They take no known flight paths. That is, they do NOT follow normal air traffic routes.

2- It is NEVER a single jet. Or even two. Or even three. This occurs ONLY with tens of aircraft, I counted no less than 11 in a very short span of time the other night, (20 -30 minutes) and missed many others since it was obvious they had recently left trails.

3- The odd flight patterns that are obviously connected by always less than 10-15 degrees. If it were a normal flight path, then the same route would be flown, every time.

4- Each new jet usually lays down a trail that is about normally about 5-7 degrees from the previous one, suggesting that that the new pilot is well aware of where the previous pliot had just flown.
And finally, the clincher for me:

5- In no instance have I EVER observed these very striking flight operations, with multiple jets emitting a NORMAL contrail *. In other words, every single instance of these peculiar flight patterns ARE accompanied by the mysterious "ever expanding contrail".
EVERY single instance.

Show me a paper on non-standard flight patterns as described above, instead.



* Even tho I have witenessed single jets at similar elevations AT THE SAME TIME as these operations emitting normal contrails, on many occaisions.

[edit on 21-10-2007 by Alexander the o.k.]

As an "older" chemist, I have tested jet fuel for over 35 years. One site we were referred to in this post said that jet fuel has been seen that was pink, red or something other than the water-white to a light straw color that the specifications call for. I would think that such coloration of fuel would send up red flags to any military pilot during his/her pre-flight checks.

If anyone can obtain a sample of this colored fuel, I want to analyze it for myself and all of the other ATS members who may be interested. I am a totally independent scientist with no ties to the U.S. government since 1975. I am open minded on chemtrails as well. I will post my findings here on this thread or wherever else may be deemed appropriate. please u2u me for my shipping address and sampling instructions.

My thanks to the OP.







[edit on 10/21/2007 by TheAvenger]

reply to post by TheAvenger


TheAvenger,

I for one welcome your analysis.
The question is, can any of our pilots get up high enough, fast enough 36-40K ft. to take a sample?
I for one, have never seen the 6'clock news announce" There will be a flight operation tonight involving 20-30 supersonic jet aircraft flying at 37K ft, and emitting an unknown 'vapor' trail.
There is just never any notice. So a pilot would have to be on full red alert, 24/7 to even hope to get a chance to get close enough to a trail.
And also possess a lear jet. A prop won't do, obviously.
How about this thought, and I think this tackles the problem:

The implied ASSUMPTION by 'chemtrail debunkers' is that these are simply normal commercial aircraft, emitting 'normal contrails'.
How about some of our aircraft controllers, or FAA guys correlating KNOWN chemtrail reports with KNOWN commercial flight patterns?
My guess is, there would be NO correlation to any verified report, because these are not commercial jets.
Just a guess.

Please prove me wrong with logs, and the sighting.

By the way TheAvenger, is your sig line a reference to thermodynamic equilibrium?

Great! but I dont f*in believe any of those sources. Contrails may spread under the right conditions, but not across the entire sky blanketing the sky with a mass white cloud.

You can quote any scientist in the world and I don't care who they are. Until you see it fo ryourself you may never know how abnormal of an occurance it actually is. Literally you see multiple jets scatter across the sky in parrallel directions, X's, and gridlines. These sprays eventually lead to a much colder day and overcast atmosphere.

So say what you will man, but I think your opinion is wrong. I'm not saying I know what they are spraying, or why, but they have even released documents saying that they have run tests like that in the past. If there was benefit for it then, why would the program have been stopped? It wouldn't have, especially with the $$ put into national defense research.

Originally posted by TheAvenger
As an "older" chemist, I have tested jet fuel for over 35 years. One site we were referred to in this post said that jet fuel has been seen that was pink, red or something other than the water-white to a light straw color that the specifications call for. I would think that such coloration of fuel would send up red flags to any military pilot during his/her pre-flight checks.

Colored Diesel fuel is really no big deal agricultural diesel is pink or red in color and I know that Jet A is basically diesel so maybe they are using agricultural fuel because it cost much less. Just a thought.

You can Google agricultural diesel color and see what pops up. I think if someone or group was going to put something into the air it would be separate from the fuel source because of the burn temp.

Originally posted by Essan
So far no-one has come up with any refutation of the meteorological explanation for what are sometimes called chemtrails .....

The whole point of this thread is to disprove the persistent contrail theory.

So come on .....

Please address my post above, and then we'll take it from there.
Point by point.
Please.

Looking into bacteria, mold and viruses being dispersed at around 40k feet, it's likely that most of them would die due to the extreme temperatures present (most liking warmer temperatures), be too spread out to cause an infection of any sort, and the UV radiation present at that altitude would also kill most of them. This leaves very little to reach the ground, if any at all.

The first, temperature, would cause many of them to be unable to reproduce quickly to spread better, and many more dying from the temperature extreme. Assuming an altitude of 40k feet, we would be situated in the stratosphere. At the top, the temperature is highest, ~26F and most bacteria couldn't survive well in that condition. At 40k feet, we would be around 7.5 miles in the air, and the temperature would be approximately -50 to -60F (due to temperature inversion in the stratosphere). Most definitely unsuitable for microbial life.

Secondly, the dispersal at such a high altitude is subject to jet streams, weather conditions, and turbulence, the latter being not entirely understood and difficult to calculate (this is what makes meteorology, climate change, and weather patterns so difficult to predict; the mechanism behind turbulence is not entirely understood and no theory has yet to describe it mathematically). So this makes sending our biological package random at best (considering most won't survive the cold anyway.)

Lastly, the UV radiation in this section of the atmosphere is significantly more than in the lower atmosphere, (the troposphere) and can wax and wane according to season, temperature, solar activity, and etcetera. The added exposure to the UV radiation, even UV exposure on the surface of the earth, is enough to kill most microbes directly. The high energies of UV photons displace DNA in cells, and cause significant damage causing death or significant impairment to the subject.

These factors make it near impossible to disperse a microbial agent at an altitude "chemtrails" are mostly seen at 30k to 50k feet give or take, let alone effective. Claims that biological agents of any sort are being dispersed as chemtrails and seeded by planes flying at this altitude is simply inane.

A follow up to chemical dispersal at this altitude will be discussed later.

~Thomas



Sources:
en.wikipedia.org...
liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov...
apollo.lsc.vsc.edu...
www.nas.nasa.gov...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.who.int...


[edit on 21-10-2007 by Nerull]

Originally posted by Nerull
These factors make it near impossible to disperse a microbial agent at an altitude "chemtrails" are mostly seen at 30k to 50k feet give or take, let alone effective. Claims that biological agents of any sort are being dispersed as chemtrails and seeded by planes flying at this altitude is simply inane.



[edit on 21-10-2007 by Nerull]

But Thomas there are plenty of reports ofchemtrails at much lower altitudes. Some even as low as 1k ft. What about them?

I ONLY see these really early in the morning or right before dusk. What explains the times for such vapor trails to be seen just at those times? I doubt that there is any explaination for that except that they are being pumped out from the back of an aircraft.

They are not just limited to one or two perpendicular trails, but sometimes seen as a 'Tic Tac Toe' or 'Plaid' pattern. That can't possibly be a natural phenomenon.

The only color that I have ever seen was a pale yellowish trail. That could have been from the twilight of the sun setting, but it looked slightly colored.

Assuming we're talking commercial airliner type planes, what in the world is a plane like that doing at 1k altitude besides being stupid (and probably illegal)? The sonic boom from that would probably be enough to shatter windows, and you'd definitely know a plane just flew over.

The main part here though would be proving that they're spreading a substance through the air; so air samples over areas would have to be taken, compared with a normal (to make sure what we're seeing isn't just the usual PPM content of the air) or checked for abnormal amounts of a given substance. Until then, it's just nothing more than speculation. Most of the sources given are of questionable origin and have no experimental evidence to support their claims other than wild speculation. No scientific method or procedure is ever given. By evidence, I mean actual scientific confirmation by a professional lab or university (those that have the means of collecting samples and doing appropriate chemical analysis as well as proper documentation of procedures) that chemicals are being dispersed by planes over the populace for experimentation or to induce harm.

All of this simply adds to nothing but speculation from questionable sources with little or no scientific evidence or methodology to back up their claims. It means absolutely zero.

~Thomas



[edit on 21-10-2007 by Nerull]

Thomas, you very well could be right as I haven't really made up my mind as to what chem/contrails are.

But one of the things that I am curious about is; the drive by debunkers that never post on anyother subjects other than chem/contrails. Pretty limited interest considering all the great subjects explored on ATS, don't you think.

Drive by debunk then never seen again until the subject of spraying comes up. odd!!

[edit on 21-10-2007 by whaaa]

reply to post by Nerull


First.
Let's clear up your assumption that anyone has stated definitively that bacterial agents are the makeup of 'chemtrails'.
I don't think anyone has.
Certainly, not I.
Second.
If you 'think' that bacteria / viruses cannot exist at 30-40K ft in atmosphere, then think again.

"A recently observed broad 3.4m m spectral "fingerprint" in a persistent Leonid meteor train at a height of 83km is likely to be due to emission of surrounding mesospheric bacteria heated by the passage of an incandescent fireball."
www.astrobiology.cf.ac.uk...
If they can exist at 83km (273,000 ft.) then they can certainly exist at 30-40K ft.
Also, it is thought that they exist in the vacuum of space at near absolute zero or -459 degrees Fahrenheit.

Ever hear of Panspermia?

Google it, if not.

Third.
I am not at all fixed on your idea that it is bacterial in nature. You are.
It could easily be, as has been postulated over and over (please read some threads, websites) inert matter. I believe Aluminium, and Barium have been identified.
Please.
Do a little research, before making assumptions, and statements of 'fact'.

Bacteria, as stated above could certainly be a component of 'chemtrails'.

And please. Lay off the wikipedia references.
It does not help your case.

[edit on 21-10-2007 by Alexander the o.k.]

Originally posted by Nerull
Assuming we're talking commercial airliner type planes, what in the world is a plane like that doing at 1k altitude besides being stupid (and probably illegal)? The sonic boom from that would probably be enough to shatter windows, and you'd definitely know a plane just flew over.

Please.
Do you know what speed has to achieved for a sonic boom to occur?
I'll spare you the google search. Approximately 750 miles per hour, depending on altitude.
Again, no one here has even postulated air speed of 750 mph at 1000-1500 ft, so your statement is completely irrelevant. Why do you even bring up sonic booms? Non sequitur.

[The main part here though would be proving that they're spreading a substance through the air; so air samples over areas would have to be taken...

I already covered this.
Why do you bring it up again?
Please read the posts more carefully.

Originally posted by Alexander the o.k.
reply to post by TheAvenger

 

TheAvenger,

I for one welcome your analysis.
The question is, can any of our pilots get up high enough, fast enough e36-40K ft. to take a sample?

By the way TheAvenger, is your sig line a reference to thermodynamic equilibrium?

I am seeking a sample of the colored fuel, not a chemtrail. A sample from a plane or a tanker will do nicely.

Correct on my signature. It's the first law of thermodynamics. Physicists sometimes express it slightly different.

[edit on 10/21/2007 by TheAvenger]

I have always been interested in chem/contrails. I look up on nice sunny days and see trails that last for 5 minutes, and then beside them trails that last up to 4-5 hours. I see this often, actually there is a trail outside as we speak. It has been up there for about 2 hours, well that is when I seen it but it could have been there longer. Great post

Originally posted by observe50
Bravo, I applaud you.

I know I have tried to also awaken people to the fact that Chemtrails are the real deal and people from all over this planet are reporting in with specimens and finding many interesting things.

Rat poison (Barium Salts) for one. When you look up in the evening and see those all so pretty pink/purple clouds. They also have found things like Red Blood Cells, so many things you just can't believe they would do this.

People when taking photo's of these trails have also captured ufo's in and around these trails. The question is are the ships monitoring these trails and collecting specimens and testing them themselves or are they involved.

I have asked people (a few times in different thread) to look up and just observe there skies everyday it only takes a minute here and there throughout your day.

After this became known the peoples studing this found that peoples doing this spraying must have been observing there sites because they started to change there routine in there spraying but this just became a joke in a way.

The junk being sprayed is coming down and it is harming you, your family, your pets. It is harming the air, soil, water.

When Springer mentioned CO2 for example he hit on something major.

I could sit here until I am blue in the face (AGAIN) and tell you this and know you don't believe me when I write that but I am trying my best to warn you of what is happening.

I am a human with an Alien Soul. I have been told over fifty years ago by them that for every TREE that is destroyed it must be replanted ten fold, we had not done this. We as a people are finally waking up but the time is critical and Trees and plants need to be planted xxxxxx's ten.

Have you ever heard which I am sure you have of the TREE OF LIFE.

Trees and plants will clean the CO2 and replenish our OXYGEN SUPPLY. (cough, cough/ hint, hint)

If you want to live I suggest you start planting.

One of many sites on chemtrails to get you started:

groups.yahoo.com...

I really don't mean to sound harsh I am trying to help people even if it makes me sound...........................


[edit on 21-10-2007 by observe50]

Those clouds are not pink/purple due to spraying, that is due to the angle of sunlight vs. atmosphere. The thicker atmosphere that the light rays need to pass through in the Morning and Evening creates the differing light bands. Pollution can affect this as well, whether it be man-made, or natural (ie, volcanic, dust, dirt, sand, etc.).

Yes, there might be some chemtrail spraying, but the majority of trails in the sky are contrails. Contrails DO form cloud clover in high air-traffic areas. Clouds are condensed water, Contrails are crystalized water particles (ie, condensed), so a Contrail is in a sense a cloud. How long this Contrail sticks around, and how much it spreads, all depends on the current Atmospheric Conditions (ie, wind patterns, humidity, temperature, weather patterns).

I have no doubt that every so often you might see some chemtrails, but distinguishing the two (chemtrails vs. contrails) is nearly impossible. You would have to notice something askew of normal to determine the presence of a chemtrail.

Most chemtrails are no doubt for Weather Modification such as the seeding of rain clouds. Far from a nefarious act. However, if it were proven to cause adverse health affects on the population, then it would need to be looked into by those involved in it. Nothing is ever perfect, but often times methods need to be perfected so that they are not only more effecient, but also more effective, and safer.

Debunking the Debunkage: These chemtrails are designed to look exactly like those perfectly normal aerodynamic phenomena!



Harmful or not, people ARE doing things to make things happen the way they want it. Whether it's the drastic population control theory, or the more acceptable UV-absorbent chemicals to block us from the sun's harmful rays.

Both make sense, and both COULD BE HAPPENING.

Originally posted by TheAvengerI am seeking a sample of the colored fuel, not a chemtrail. A sample from a plane or a tanker will do nicely.

Correct on my signature. It's the first law of thermodynamics. Physicists sometimes express it slightly different.

[edit on 10/21/2007 by TheAvenger]

yes, but according to chevron, aviation fuels are intentionally dyed, in order to prevent accidental misfueling of a plane with the wrong grade.

would that not account for the red fuel you mentioned?

Originally posted by Alexander the o.k.

Your question seems disingenuous.

It is not a meteorological explanation of 'chemtrails'.

It is a ' meteorological explanation' for quite normal CONTRAILS.

Are you implying that chemtrails do not exist, because contrails do?

It's a meteorological explantion of what many,many people claim to be chemtrails. I am implying that what people think are chemtrails do not exist, because they are contrails

Please address the most obvious and striking signature of 'chemtrails' or whatever they are, which is:

The very deliberate MOVEMENTS of these particular jets.
They are characterized by very singular traits (in my my own numerous observations of them over a period of YEARS):

1- They take no known flight paths. That is, they do NOT follow normal air traffic routes.

You woud need to prove that because I do not know the dates nor localities at which you have seen these. However, in the UK at least, the aircraft supposedly laying chemtrails most certainly do follow normal air traffic routes.

2- It is NEVER a single jet. Or even two. Or even three. This occurs ONLY with tens of aircraft, I counted no less than 11 in a very short span of time the other night, (20 -30 minutes) and missed many others since it was obvious they had recently left trails.

This supports the contention that you are seeing normal air traffic. If only one or two aircraft were involved, with dozens of others not producing 'chemtrails' there might be a stronger argument that those 1 or 2 aircarft were behaving differently.

If the atmospheric conditions are right for the formation of persistent contrails at a given altitude, then all aircraft flying at that altitude would be expected to produce persistent contrails.

3- The odd flight patterns that are obviously connected by always less than 10-15 degrees. If it were a normal flight path, then the same route would be flown, every time.

If you observe aircraft flying from LA to New York, Miami to Seattle and Dallas to Chicago, for example, they obviously would fly on different flight paths. IMO you observation further supports the idea you are seeing noraml commercial air traffic.

4- Each new jet usually lays down a trail that is about normally about 5-7 degrees from the previous one, suggesting that that the new pilot is well aware of where the previous pliot had just flown.

Aircraft on the same flight route do not follow one another because the leading aircraft produces turbulence.

5- In no instance have I EVER observed these very striking flight operations, with multiple jets emitting a NORMAL contrail *. In other words, every single instance of these peculiar flight patterns ARE accompanied by the mysterious "ever expanding contrail".
EVERY single instance.

This go backs to what I said before: if 1 aircraft at a given altitude produces persistent contrails, so will all other aircraft at the same altitude.

Moreover, it's unlikely that on days when no contrails are forming you would notice any aircraft at all. A jumbo jet at a distance of 6 miles is not a very big object.

Show me a paper on non-standard flight patterns as described above, instead.

This map shows just the internal flight routes followed by one airline in the USA. Add in all the other airlines, plus transatlantic flights and other international flights and imagine just how many aircrfat fly in all directions over you every day .....

* Even tho I have witenessed single jets at similar elevations AT THE SAME TIME as these operations emitting normal contrails, on many occaisions.

This suggests they are flying at a different altitude - one at 28,000ft and one at 30,000ft for example.

Do you think that these aircraft not producing persistent contrails are commercial airliners?

All I can add is that when you see a plane fly by that isn't emitting them, next to one of the same size that is, then it seems obvious.

We had them today in Cincinnati.