Why didn't this start WWIII

Originally posted by astmonster
There you go confussing FACT with religion. God did give the 12 tribes Israel.

really? can't see a deed that contains the deity's signature, can i?

Modern Judea was GIVEN to the jews by UN charter and Jordan was given to the Arabs in the area.

you mean modern israel? actually, many parts that have israeli settlements and jerusalem WEREN'T given under the UN charter and were made in direct violation of it

So modern Israel did not "take" land from anyone. When to arabs attacked them in 67 and 73 there was land WON in the conflict.

they took the land from the palestinians that didn't fight?
last time i checked other nations attacked, but not palestine...

reply to post by madnessinmysoul



Do some research "transjordan" was created for the palatrash. Palestinians (sp?) aren't even a real people, they are a made-up people from a made-up land. The Palatrash were thrown out of every Arab country since 1948.


[edit on 10/17/0707 by astmonster]

The FACT is until the Isrealis stop treating the Palestinians like animals they are simply reaping what they are sowing. I have no issue with them possessing the land on the basis that God gave it to them, however if they are going to use that logic and belief then they MUST use the rest of the beliefs that go with it, and the last time I checked they were commanded to treat strangers in their land well, are they doing that, no they are not. But since you are so keen on starting holy wars, you better have made the arrangments for yourself to be on the first flight out, because im rather sick and tired of all the little chicken hawks who don't care if my friends and family get to die for their fundamentalist religous reasonings. You have the faith it is right then you go, it shouldn't be this nations policy to force your religous agenda on anyone.

Originally posted by astmonster
It is silly to think that defiling of a holy place and assume so called Christians are just supposed to go "oh darn" .........

It is time to stand for your faith, fight for your beliefs.

Exactly! It's about time someone realized that the "10 Commandments" were merely the "10 Suggestions".

#6 (Thou shalt not kill) obviously wasn't meant to be taken literally; bring on the war and let the bloodbath ensue!

Who really bothers with silly concepts like "forgiveness", and "letting God judge men, and women, for their sins". Christianity is all about holding grudges and taking matters into our own hands! We are the judges & executioners down here!






[edit on 10/17/07 by redmage]

Thats what Im wondering. Why dont we nuke someone in the name of Jesus? Isnt that what he wants anyway? More aggression in the world for pissy-pot pie?

And who says religion doesnt start wars.......

Started a minor one on this thread

I hate to say this, but forever we will be the 'Great Satan'. Because the Mullahs teach that all us Westerners are into porno and Brittney Spears. That not undermining us is contrary to Islamic law. That laying down their lives will bring 72 virgins. It is so messed up idealogically on so many levels. Ahmedinajad repeatedly expressing Jewish state non existence. What a f++++ up world we live in presently. I feel sorry for our sons and daughters. The full brunt has not been felt yet. We need a great leader to heal the divide of warring monkeys. Cause that is what we are, tribalistic, egotistical savages.

Originally posted by astmonster
Do some research "transjordan" was created for the palatrash.

an ethnic slur and an insult to my intelligence in the same sentence...
ok, question, why didn't the UN mandate give the whole of the land that was known as the region of palestine to the nation that became israel?
...
so transjordan was created for a people that already had a land...

Palestinians (sp?) aren't even a real people, they are a made-up people from a made-up land.

...palestinian comes from the root of "philistine"
remember them? the people that had the big ol' genocide against them?
also, a palestinian is one from the region of palestine

The Palatrash were thrown out of every Arab country since 1948.

again, ethnic slur. that's not very nice

[edit on 10/18/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by astmonster
The land of all Israel was given to the 12 tribes by God. All other are simply "guests" in the land.

While as a Christian I do believe that long ago, the land of Israel was God given to the Jews under Moses. What I am not so certain of, after a lot of study on the subject, is if God still intended for them to posses that land, or if they are still considered the chosen people of God. The only group who seems to push on this topic are the fundamental Christian groups who follow the prophetic school of Futurism. The reason that they follow it, is because they believe that Dan 9:27 is a future prophetic event, and in order for it to occur, Israel must still exist as a nation and have a rebuilt temple.

I’ll quote Daniel 9:27 here for clarity:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The problem is that there is more then one interpretation of this verse, and personally I believe that this event already happened in 70 AD, during the Rebellion and destruction under Roman Emperor Titus. This event is specifically mentioned in Flavius Josephus’s “wars of the Jews”. If you ever get a chance to read Josephus and study the prophetic school of Historicism or even Preterism, you’ll understand why the Jews may no longer be in the position that they once were, and that God may have intended Israel to lose its status as a Nation. The Zionists in both the Christian and Jewish mainstream may be the only folks responsible for creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, which has nothing at all to do with the actual prophecies of the Bible.

The reason that God favored the Jews was they were to be the father nation of his son, however when they rejected his son and put him to death, I believe that their status of being the chosen ones changed. If you study the bible you will notice that the disciples were told to minister to only the Jewish people for a period of 3 years after the death of Christ. So between the 3.5 years that Christ ministered to man, his death, then the 3.5 years to the final act of Jewish rebellion against the Messiah God sent them, ending with the Sanhedrin Stoning Stephen to Death, the verse of Daniel 9:27 can be also taken to mean:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (God would confirm his covenant to the Jews that he would send his son to minister to man, and save them): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(in the middle of that period Christ will be put to death and make the ultimate sacrifice, making the animal sacrifice of the temple null and void), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel is to become a desolation, its people conquered by the Romans, and the Temple and city destroyed).

Now is there any support in the bible for this interpretation of the prophecy?
Yes, in the proceeding verses.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

We can see above that the prophecy has to do with the people, or tribe of Daniel, not Future Christians/Gentiles. It is a sealing up of the promise God sent them that they were the chosen people who would bring about the Messiah through their bloodline. A specific time was told to them as when to expect that messiah to arrive, and what would happen after he did. Specifically, that after Christ was “Cut Off” or put to death, that the “People of the Prince” or the Romans, would come to destroy both the "City" of Jerusalem, and the “Sanctuary” or Temple. Basically fulfilling and thus ending the Old Testament Covenant between the Jews and God.

The “abomination of desolations” mentioned by Christ here, is also a reference to this verse:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

This is also often used by fundamental Christians to point to this prophecy having a future date of fulfillment, yet if we look at the beginning of Matthew we see that the disciples asked Christ more then one simple question.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Therefore, Christ was specifically telling them that the Temple was about to be destroyed, not 2000 years later, but in a short time. The question he was answering above was “when will these things (the destruction of the temple) be?”
The Christians of the day understood the answer and when the saw the Standard of Titus in the Temple Mount with the offerings to the emperor cult around them, they fled to Pella and the majority of them missed the slaughter that was soon to follow.

Though this is a Preterist's site, it’s a good site for comparing many Biblical prophecies with the works of Flavius Josephus: The War of the Jews and Prophecy

So I guess the question remains, is Israel still a nation that was granted over by God, or is the re-establishment of Israel a self-fulfilling prophecy made by a small but influential number of Futurist and Zionist writers?


[edit on 10/18/2007 by defcon5]

Originally posted by redmage
Exactly! It's about time someone realized that the "10 Commandments" were merely the "10 Suggestions".

#6 (Thou shalt not kill) obviously wasn't meant to be taken literally; bring on the war and let the bloodbath ensue!

Who really bothers with silly concepts like "forgiveness", and "letting God judge men, and women, for their sins". Christianity is all about holding grudges and taking matters into our own hands! We are the judges & executioners down here!

[edit on 10/17/07 by redmage]

The correct translation from the original text is "Thou shalt not MURDER".

Again the misled confuse "thou shalt not judge" with many things including keeping holy places holy. Christ does ask his father to forgive those who believe and ask. However, he will punish those who don't.

Islam denies Christ, so it was OK for them to defile a holy place. If that is OK then it is an easy step to destroy man.

It is just silly to think God and Christ don't care about holy places.

reply to post by defcon5



So it is a mear coincidence that after 2000 years (+-) a country called Israel comes back to the exact place it once existed?

And that the world is on the brink of all out nuclear war.

And that 100's of other prophesy's are coming true?

Don't forget the other 10 tribes locations also.

Again I use the example of Jesus beating the money-changers from the temple. "If" the defiled church is a true holy place, then christians should have gone to war to punish all of Islam. So either modern Chrisitans are almost all false and/or the holy place is false.

reply to post by pluckynoonez


What "he" wants is for Chrisitans to defend their faith with as much zeal as the pagan muslims. If Christians don't defend their faith, the pagans will win and the God of Abraham will be taken from the minds of man. Allah the false god will take his place.

Originally posted by Jovi1
The FACT is until the Isrealis stop treating the Palestinians like animals they are simply reaping what they are sowing.

But they are less than animals if they continue to deny Christ through Islam. Animals have a better chance of getting to heaven than a muslim.

Originally posted by astmonster
So it is a mear coincidence that after 2000 years (+-) a country called Israel comes back to the exact place it once existed?

No, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy by the folks who run the media in this country. It was done by pushing futurist interpretation literature on Christians, and not publishing the other views. Did you realize that “All” the original Protestant faiths are supposed to follow Historicism? Yet I bet if I asked you to tell me what the Historicist interpretation is you would not even know.

If it talks about a seven year tribulation, a rebuilt temple, a broken treaty, or a single person Antichrist, then its Jesuit Futurism. Why would the Protestants follow a teaching that originated in the Jesuit Order of the Roman Catholic Church, when even the Roman Catholic Church itself denies that style of interpretation?

Wasn’t the RCC also a big pusher for making Israel a nation again? Maybe the reason they got into cahoots with the Zionists about making Israel a restored nation, is because they wanted Protestant Historicism to be forgotten, and it just so happened that if the Zionists and the RCC teamed up they could kill two birds with one stone. The reason being that according to Historicism, Daniel and most of Revelations relates back to Rome, not to some antichrist. Again if you are a protestant, and if you’re church claims to follow the "Westminster Confession of Faith", this it what you’re supposed to believe.

Originally posted by astmonster
holy place is false.

When Christ drove them out of the Temple, the Temple was still the “Temple of God”.
The temple referred to in the prophecies is not the Jewish Temple, but rather the head of the largest Christian Church. This would be the Vatican in Rome. The stuff about someone sitting in the temple and stating they are God, changing the laws, and so on, all relate back to specific things done in the Name of being the "Vicar of Christ", and through Papal Infallibility.

The “Age of the Jews” ended in 70 AD with the destruction of Israel and the fulfillment of Gods covenant to the Jewish people. If you read Josephus you can even see that the “Glory Cloud” of God left the temple and moved to the Mount of Olives just prior to the Roman attack on Jerusalem. The Roman Legions also had built their encampment on the Mount of Olives.

This was the beginning of the “Age of the Church”, and the “End Times”. The “End Times” have been slowly going on for the last 2000 years. Revelation has to do with events from 70 AD to the return of Christ.

Again, if your not a Roman Catholic (Currently they follow Jesuit Preterism) then you should be reading Historicism, not Futurism. If you’re following Historicism you will realize that there should be no reason for Gentile Christians to be supporting Israel anymore.

"Again, if your not a Roman Catholic (Currently they follow Jesuit Preterism) then you should be reading Historicism, not Futurism. If you’re following Historicism you will realize that there should be no reason for Gentile Christians to be supporting Israel anymore."

So very, very, sad. The RCC is no better than Islam. In fact 99.9% of protestant churches are just as wrong.

Israel in these end times is not just Judea. Israel includes the USA, Britian, Australia, New Zeland, and all those decendants of the lost tribes.

There will be a third temple. It will be the same as Moses built, not Solomon. It takes but minutes to erect.

Israel (Judea) is our brother.

reply to post by astmonster


Can you clarify on that some, I am not sure if I agree with you 100%, but I don’t think I totally disagree with what you’re getting at. I am not sure that all those nations related back to Israel, but according to Historicism the last beast is the last World Empire, which will follow the Roman Empire. That beast is yet to completely fulfill its prophecies yet, but we do seem to be on the cusp of that happening.

I am not sure what you mean about the Temple though.

reply to post by astmonster


The Jews continue to deny Christ so what makes them any better, your logic is flawed and nothing but hate flows from your lips. Making this kind of statement shows just what kind of Christian you truly are and nothing more needs to be said.

reply to post by defcon5


Study the lost tribes of upper Israel to find that Europe is where the 10 tribes went. Ephraim is Britian and Manasseh is the US.

"How the birthright was passed to Joseph’s sons is another remarkable story. Sometime after elderly Israel (Jacob) arrived in Egypt with his other sons and extended family, Joseph received word that he had fallen ill. Immediately, Joseph took his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, to their dying grandfather’s side. It was a moving and dramatic scene: “And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, your son Joseph comes unto you: and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed. And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me, and said unto me, Behold, I will make you fruitful, and multiply you, and I will make of you a multitude of people; and will give this land to your seed after you for an everlasting possession”(Gen. 48:2-4).

To read more.............

www.thercg.org...

Now as for the Third temple............The temple of Moses was like a large tent. It was mobile, when the time comes the third temple can be set up in minutes..................

reply to post by Jovi1



Not all "jews" deny Christ. The only hate in this post is coming from you..........

To say not all Jews reject Christ really means little. The vast majority of them do in fact reject Jesus do they not? hence according to your own logic makes them no better than animals in your eyes does it not? I am not the one disparaging an entire group of people on the basis of their religous beliefs you are, I am not the one advocating a World War to force people of another belief to force them to mine you are, over a building no less. And again Isreal may be entitled to the land on the basis of their religon, but most certainly do not use their religon in regards to how the strangers in their land should be treated so they are as much to blame for their own problems as anyone else.

[edit on 20-10-2007 by Jovi1]