Time May Not Exist

I was browsing through the net and I happened to come across this:

Link

The problem, in brief, is that time may not exist at the most fundamental level of physical reality.

This also ties into the multiverse theory:

As Rovelli explains it, in quantum mechanics all particles of matter and energy can also be described as waves. And waves have an unusual property: An infinite number of them can exist in the same location. If time and space are one day shown to consist of quanta, the quanta could all exist piled together in a single dimensionless point. “Space and time in some sense melt in this picture,” says Rovelli. “There is no space anymore. There are just quanta kind of living on top of one another without being immersed in a space.”

I find this to be of great interest, anyone have any thoughts?

"Time" in the layman's sense obviously exists - we have a subjective experience of time moving forward. Everyone percieves time this way, so clearly it's a human trait to do so.

It's also clearly real on a macroscopic level - the macroscopic behaviour of the world is not symmetric with respect to time. Make a video of an egg breaking and play it backwards to prove this...

However, there is a good argument that time isn't quite the same at a subatomic level - things down there are very wierd and break our common-sense intuition about how things "should" work. However, the collapse of wave functions is irreversible, so *if* we accept the coppenhagen interpretation then subatomic physics isn't time-symmetric. Other interpretations have been put forward with some amount of support, but none has widespread currency or any actual evidence.

As far as any of us are concerned, time definately exists. The question of whether time-like dimensions and space-like dimensions are fundamentally different is really a question of abstrat mathematics and (very) theoretical physics. Remember, science doesn't try to find out what reality *is*, just what we can *say* about how it works. The only goal of a physical theory is to make accurate predictions.

reply to post by ptownb

The nonexistence of time is a popular thread topic on ATS.

Our 3 dimensions will become 4 and time goes bye bye

Does Time exist, or is Time really what we think it is

My Theory - True Time Does Not Exist

and the hefty, 18-page Why Time Does NOT Exist!

I don't know if anyone's covered your particular angle of it before, though.

I can add another one to that great list. Its from an external source, its short but pretty good.


Are we missing a time dimension?

Has anyone read "How to Know God: The Soul's Journey Into the Mystery of Mysteries" by Deepak Chopra? He discusses this very point in depth. It was an incredible read. Life changing.

While we're on the subject, here's a TV programme I didn't see, but wished I had. A colleague of mine mentioned this guy's research into how and why our brain perceives time and wether this has any correlation to the 'existence' of time externally to us at all

www.bbc.co.uk...

Choprasocky

Originally posted by LovingSoul
Has anyone read "How to Know God: The Soul's Journey Into the Mystery of Mysteries" by Deepak Chopra? He discusses this very point in depth. It was an incredible read. Life changing.

Deepak Chopra is not a physicist or mathematician. He is not qualified to talk about matters of this kind and his attempts to do so would be laughable if they were not so pathetic.

Deepak Chopra is a very clever snake-oil salesman who makes millions peddling his mumbo-jumbo to well-meaning, decent, often very ill people who are easily deceived. He is not a master of anything, except marketing.

As for his 'ideas', they cannot stand up to an instant's intelligent inquiry and he knows it -- look what an egregious ass he made of himself in Enemies of Reason, squeaking and squirming under Dawkins's scrutiny like a rat caught under someone's foot. Life-changing? If I were you I'd sue him for my old life back. At least it was your own invention.

reply to post by Astyanax


Science is not concerned with other realities than the physical world, hence I dont think science is the correct instrument for every experience. Not everything in this world is physical.

Thanks for your opinion though.

reply to post by Copernicus
You're welcome to my opinion (as well as your own, obviously).

The thing is, we're speaking of time in a scientific sense here. This is the Science & Technology forum. ATS has a number of other forums in which the metaphysical, spiritual and conspiratorial (if any) aspects of time may be discussed.

Deepak Chopra is not a scientist, tbough I don't doubt he likes to dress up as one when it suits him. His opinions are not scientific and have no place here.

Still, perhaps I was over-hasty; let's hear what the celebrated guru of the rich and famous has to say about time. Anyone care to elucidate his ideas for us? Should be worth a giggle.

If time didn't exist wouldn't everything just be one still frame? However that's from a layman's perspective.

If time did not exist, then it would explain how ETs can travel mass distances to reach us without breaking Einstein's law, other than Bob Lazar's claim of gravity distorting space.

This is interesting, I'll need to read more about these theories.

[edit on 10/15/2007 by Hyzera]

As Rovelli explains it, in quantum mechanics all particles of matter and energy can also be described as waves. And waves have an unusual property: An infinite number of them can exist in the same location. If time and space are one day shown to consist of quanta, the quanta could all exist piled together in a single dimensionless point. “Space and time in some sense melt in this picture,” says Rovelli. “There is no space anymore. There are just quanta kind of living on top of one another without being immersed in a space.”

I've heard of this theory many other places. I believe that time is eternal, and it's hard for me to say that space is an illusion, but high-dimensional beings--one known as 'Ra' (supposedly a 6th dimensional spirit/soul) say there is no space or time, and this is very evident if you're in the 4th dimension or higher.

I've also heard that we humans or inter-dimensional beings and we are all eternal, but once we choose to live a 3 dimensional life, we also choose to forget our Higher knowledge such as future events and that we are part of God or the Infinite Consciousness.

There are two parts to our experience with time;

A; the linear / cyclical measurement of time as the earth revolves around the sun revolves around the galaxy revolves around the Universe.

B ; time as a personal event. This is the string of moments seperated and measured by "A" above.


If time were to not exist, which of these would be cease?

reply to post by ptownb


Time does not exist anywhere but in the minds of humans on this rock. Time is merely the measured movement of the earth to the sun that has revelance only to the microb know as human. It does not exist and never has and never will. All things have no begining and no end and are as a circle rather than a line.

reply to post by Copernicus


The physical world that science identifies with is just one of many worlds and many dimenisions. Time relates to the physical world and since the physical world we know is a mere spec that world is meaningless even in the world of physical reality. If there were no earth, and no sun and no human time would cease to exist in our tiny nonexistant mind.

Originally posted by jim_w
"Time" in the layman's sense obviously exists - we have a subjective experience of time moving forward. Everyone percieves time this way, so clearly it's a human trait to do so.

It's also clearly real on a macroscopic level - the macroscopic behaviour of the world is not symmetric with respect to time. Make a video of an egg breaking and play it backwards to prove this...

However, there is a good argument that time isn't quite the same at a subatomic level - things down there are very wierd and break our common-sense intuition about how things "should" work. However, the collapse of wave functions is irreversible, so *if* we accept the coppenhagen interpretation then subatomic physics isn't time-symmetric. Other interpretations have been put forward with some amount of support, but none has widespread currency or any actual evidence.

As far as any of us are concerned, time definately exists. The question of whether time-like dimensions and space-like dimensions are fundamentally different is really a question of abstrat mathematics and (very) theoretical physics. Remember, science doesn't try to find out what reality *is*, just what we can *say* about how it works. The only goal of a physical theory is to make accurate predictions.

I read to this point and was astounded by my basic thoughts being articulated so seemingly effortlessly. The statement is so rational, logical, and unbiased that I could only hope to conjor statements of this kind.
In my opinion; its very articulate, very accurate, and very pleasing.

i think after reading this id just be able to refer back to this quote half the time to explain what im thiking.. however bad that may seem.. ill just not respond is probably what will happen.. I should prolly copy-paste this somewhere and save it ^_-

oh and im not being sarcastic or anything.. i really wil copy-past jim's words somewhere =o)

-G

Originally posted by ronbn56
reply to post by Copernicus

 

The physical world that science identifies with is just one of many worlds and many dimenisions. Time relates to the physical world and since the physical world we know is a mere spec that world is meaningless even in the world of physical reality. If there were no earth, and no sun and no human time would cease to exist in our tiny nonexistant mind.

what the hell are your talking about?
we are nothign and the reality of all is everyting and the sun and me mean nothing and...." jeeesus.. god... revelation..
your belief spew forth just like the rest.. sorry to be so blunt.
"the physical world we know is a mere spec.." a Mere Spec you say... yeah?
and meaningless too. Who are you to say this? my life has meaning even if u think our whole existance as a race has none.. you are not to say what is.. you Believe that we have no meaning.. then you just believe.. i dont bring any absoulte religious belief into a scientific argument..

And you say that if there was no earth.. or sun.. or humans.. time would cease to exist........ riiight... religious banter disguised as scientific reason.. in my Opinion. at least i can specify it as such.

-G

Time exists only in the mind of the physical human living in the physical world and is only a gauge of his pathetic existance in the cosmos and as a physical being. Outside of this temporary reality time does not exist.

reply to post by GlahES


The only reality is conciousness. The physical reality is an illusion. Time measures that illusion. Conciuosness can, will and does exist in other dimensions that have no time. Hence the spiritual reality is a fact while the physical reality is an illusion. Science deals with physics therefore science is the study of an illusion measured by time.

reply to post by Copernicus


I AGREE 100%. TIME DOES NOT EXIST, THE PHYSICAL WORLD IS A TEMPORARY ILLUSION. WHEN WE THINK IN SHORT PERIODS OF EXISTANCE WE CAN NOT COMPREHEND OTHER REALITES AND OTHER UNIVERSES OR OTHER DIMENSIONS BUT THEY DO EXIST AND THERE IS A COSMIC INTELLIGENCE WE CAN TAP INTO BUT WITH OUR SHALLOW MINDS IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE SUCH REALITIES. MUCH LIKE A MESQUITO TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE BEST WAY TO ORBIT THE MOON.

[edit on 10-11-2007 by ronbn56]

As Rovelli explains it, in quantum mechanics all particles of matter and energy can also be described as waves. And waves have an unusual property: An infinite number of them can exist in the same location. If time and space are one day shown to consist of quanta, the quanta could all exist piled together in a single dimensionless point. “Space and time in some sense melt in this picture,” says Rovelli. “There is no space anymore. There are just quanta kind of living on top of one another without being immersed in a space.”

While I believe there is a shread of truth to this, let's not deny what we know to be true. There is space. There is time. It is really a matter of how dimensions are expressed. Learn about derivatives and intergration. Each tells a different part of the story. The derivative of acceleration is speed. Both are useful. Expand or contract the way you view things and all you end up with is a different perspective on the same problem.