Is Communism really that bad?

Originally posted by Kacen

Originally posted by bigspud
both pure capitalism and pure communism are good, its when u start mixing them together, things go bad.

...

What?

Thats when it's good.

Its ether one by themselves that are bad (communism more so).

Seriously is your head screwed up?! O_o;

no its screwed down onto my neck.

Originally posted by intrepid
Communism is like anarchy, good in theory until you plug the human factor in. There are the power hungry and those that couldn't care less for administration. Both systems would be good but the reliance on autonomy is lost on many. Most think "communism" and think Russia or Cuba, nothing could be further from the truth. That's not true communism. Same as anarchy. People think that's a total "free for all". It isn't. It's about having the rule, "No rules, as long it doesn't infringe on another." It takes personal responsibility. THAT'S the problem, too few are willing to accept the WORK it takes to make these systems work. They'd rather be told, and ruled.

Well put. The human variable is the least adaptable one that could ever come into play. People so often compare the United States to big bad Cuba, the Soviet Union, or China when Communism is brought up but it's less regional and more personal. There's an entire spectrum that people haven't been exposed to that is mind blowing.

Originally posted by Kacen

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
It's just a more civil way, by theory, to conduct a civilization. Equality for everyone regardless of employment, race, religion, caste. We're far away from ever achieving this in modern times but it will be a beautiful thing when it finally works.

Equality on sex and race I am 100% for and will fight for however seriously we need people to do different jobs. In all honestly I don't think it is right that a doctor who saves peoples lives should be paid the same as a janitor.

Wow your a hypocrite you know it irritates me how you left out sex but figures since your a freemason you sexist b...caught myself. But I cannot espouse enough how much I wish I could say it.

[edit on 10/11/2007 by Kacen]

Hahahahahaha. God, yes, I love it.


To clear the air, I'm not a mason although I would love to be. I don't think I have the right demeanor to become one.

Also... I come from a single mother household and hold females in the highest regard. Just because I scanned over the lack of segregation of "sex" as well in one post doesn't require some doltish response.


Completely immature and unintelligent but I thank you for the laugh.



[edit on 11-10-2007 by DeadFlagBlues]

As said several times, Communism is an ideology that is brilliant in thought. In practice, it has never been. There was little to do with communism in the USSR. Cuba, not there either. Paris Commune, perhaps.

I have spoken with Russians who lived under that regime. The age old problem existed there and it does in the US and everywhere else. A few people think they know what is best for everyone else. The people who desire power are the ones who should not have it. I would sooner vote my local deliman to president over anyone who claims to be a politician.

Communism was derived in part from people wanting to avoid monarchs and a harsh class system. There were rulers and the ruled, feudal lords and serfs. What is there now? It is the same damed thing. Nothing has changed. The fact that people had an entire country to turn into the only free place on earth and then completely ruined it....(USSR) makes me sick.

Communism is not a failed system, its like a science or epoch, it just is. It is inevitable. There is feudalism, then some form of capitalism, then socialism, then communism. Nothing else. In time, all countries must be communist. It is just the natural outcome. Its a theory and communism is the end result.

The problem with all of that though, and I don't think Marx or anyone else considered, is that technology and the science of control has gotten to the point where dissidence is......difficult if not impossible. We seem to be regressing to a stage of feudalism again, corporatism if you like.

The founding US fathers had it wrong, capitalism necessitates bondage in some form or another.

Originally posted by xenya
Communism was derived in part from people wanting to avoid monarchs and a harsh class system. There were rulers and the ruled, feudal lords and serfs. What is there now? It is the same damed thing. Nothing has changed. The fact that people had an entire country to turn into the only free place on earth and then completely ruined it....(USSR) makes me sick.

The only free place on earth? What?

Originally posted by xenya
Communism is not a failed system, its like a science or epoch, it just is. It is inevitable. There is feudalism, then some form of capitalism, then socialism, then communism. Nothing else. In time, all countries must be communist. It is just the natural outcome. Its a theory and communism is the end result.

It's not just a failed evil, it's a disgusting perversion of humanity. Don't buy into that communist bull#. Communism will NEVER result in a prosperity or freedom anywhere near what capitalism can provide - in fact, it's a step backwards, more like feudalism in disguise. The major problem is implementation, but simply running it is impossible. It will NEVER work.

Originally posted by xenya
The problem with all of that though, and I don't think Marx or anyone else considered, is that technology and the science of control has gotten to the point where dissidence is......difficult if not impossible. We seem to be regressing to a stage of feudalism again, corporatism if you like.

Corporatism is what happens when government goes crazy with subsidies and whatnot, sort of like the New Deal (which was like a socialist/corporatist hybrid). Communism is arguably worse.

Originally posted by xenya
The founding US fathers had it wrong, capitalism necessitates bondage in some form or another.

That's bull#. Plain and simple.


Let me guess, you've never read a book on economics in your entire life?

And no, the Communist Manifesto does not count.

Let's not get in these little arguments of capitalist or communist grandeur. We've already concluded that in this day and age, communism won't work. We're still a people set on paper money and getting ahead of one another.

may I ask why communists ramble on and on about "yeah, well, uh, in practice it doesnt work, but in THEORY its great!". Ive heard this so many times and how all those communist countries have nothing to do with "real" communism, etc.

So lets examine how great communism is in THEORY then. Will the THEORY of Communism allow me to get paid better than my neighbour for performing better?

reply to post by Johnmike


No one appreciates being spoken to in a condescending manner. I do not need to prove my credentials to you.

Capitalism has accomplished much, yes. However, it has succeeded in evicting people from the middle class so that the bourgeoisie in this country is slowly dwindling, where it was once strong.

Things bought on credit is not so much a purchase as it is a shackle. You 'buy' a house with a mortgage, but you do not own this house. You do not own your car that you took out a loan for. You may take your education with you, but you will be paying it back for years. This is not wealth, this is debt. Those in the banking and corporate sectors, upper echelon of course, are the ones who are reaping the rewards. Credit is just another word for debt, and if you are indebted to someone you don't own anything.

Capitalism is not sustainable as I mentioned earlier, just a stage on a continuum. The environment will get worse, because it is free profit. The IMF and World Bank love poor developing countries. They can put them in debt for decades while needed funds for social programs and infrastructure is sent off to the bankers to pay off interest.

Capitalist countries also love to go to war for political conquest and profit. But the country, citizens at large, are not the ones becoming wealthy. Executives of big companies are making money, the politicians are making money (a good number of them anyway), and everyone else incurs the debt.

Watch how much longer the middle class survives as the Fed plays games. Watch the dollar fall.

reply to post by Skyfloating


All of us who defend it have done some digging and it shouldn't be easy for you, either.READ


And you're not reading the informative posts from our counterparts saying HUMAN NATURE binds the continuity of Marxism/Communism. We've said it a few times.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Will the THEORY of Communism allow me to get paid better than my neighbour for performing better?

No. Obviously not. And just because you can analyze political theories does not mean one is a communist. I am not, for instance.

Capitalism, as a theory, does not much resemble the USA. I think you have other rhetorical questions to ask about your life in this country.

Oh listen to you lot all dissing communism.

Hypocrites the lot of you !! Why ? Because you're all posting on this wacky forum and are therefore, by definition, Star Trek fans. Everyone of you. And what is Star Trek ? COMMUNISM I tell ya.

No one owns anything in Star Trek, apart from one photoframe and a pot plant. And there's no money. The Federation abolished that centuries ago. So you can't buy anything or sell anything whatsoever. Who owns the means of production ? The Federation. Who controls transport ? The Federation (I don't see the transporter being sponsored by AOL, it's got a great big Federation logo on it). Does Captain Kirk go to church ? No. There's no church. Presumably The Federation abolished that too. And you're tracked everywhere you go ("Computer where is Lieutenant Chekov ?" "Computer says he's taking a whizz"). In fact they've even abolished bodily functions too now I think about it. Damned communist Federation. And everything looks the same. Starships are all ... grey and boring. The uniforms are largely identical too. There's no class system. Everyone's equal. Even red shirted security guards with the brain capacity of an amoeba get a job on a starship - why ? The Federation uses them as cannon fodder like the communists used prisoners in frontal assaults against the Nazis at Stalingrad.

And despite all that I can imagine some of you sitting in at your desks right now saying "computer - earl grey hot" ... you've seen the movies, you've got the dvd's, you met that klingon chick at the trekker convention 14 years ago and now have the perfect Federation crypto communist pre/post nuclear family.

You're all hypocrites about communism. You lurve it. Admit it. Lurve.

reply to post by 1111111111111


I don't like communism or the idea's of this new liberal/progressive movement under the guise of "Democrat."

The only thing going on here are talking points of the idea of communism. No one even comes close to mentioning the reality of it.

I was however very intrigued when you mentioned that a person from a Soviet country said she would would prefer to be communist. I knew a man from Lithuania (spelling?). He had to do construction work in his country and he had many bad things to say. He was extremely happy to be here and although he is still a blue collar worker type here.

Perhaps if some of the readers talked more of the "reality" of communism of everday life. They would not feel so scholarly in its defense.

Originally posted by Niall197
You're all hypocrites about communism. You lurve it. Admit it. Lurve.

It is so hard to resist the urge to post the .gif I made of the Tlatelolco Massacre.

Also it's "Love". =3

[edit on 10/11/2007 by Kacen]

Originally posted by xenya

Capitalism has accomplished much, yes. However, it has succeeded in evicting people from the middle class so that the bourgeoisie in this country is slowly dwindling, where it was once strong.

Phooey. Capitalism is a theory. How can a theory evict people from the middle class?

My next door neighbors didn't go to college and worked their butts off. Now they're 45 years old and they make over $100,000 a year. They started at the bottom and EARNED their way to this level by doing what? By providing value to other people who paid them.

Things bought on credit is not so much a purchase as it is a shackle. You 'buy' a house with a mortgage, but you do not own this house. You do not own your car that you took out a loan for. You may take your education with you, but you will be paying it back for years. This is not wealth, this is debt. Those in the banking and corporate sectors, upper echelon of course, are the ones who are reaping the rewards. Credit is just another word for debt, and if you are indebted to someone you don't own anything.

More liberal college textbook bunk, imo.

What you call a shackle I call an opportunity. My neighbors who I mentioned above borrowed money to start a business and buy rental property. They worked hard at their business and sold it, and worked harder at fixing up their rental property. Borrowed money isn't a shackle when people leverage the money into more production.

How about this example....

I borrow money to buy a farm. I work the farm and plant crops. I sell the crops to people for food. I pay back the bank with the money I EARNED from adding value to the land, PLUS people who wouldn't have had something to eat now are eating the food I grew.

How is this not sustainable?

In truth, what is not sustainable is socialism or communism because there is no incentive for innovation or even working, other than punishment by a totalitarian government.

And if these theories are a continuum, then I think you have them out of order. Communism and socialism are far behind capitalism in the evolutionary chain. The evolutionary breakthrough of capitalism is the concept of individual property rights.

As long as there are people that strive for power communism, or democracy cannot succeed. It's practically against human nature, I'm sorry to say. There has never been a true communist country and probably never will be. In the end those that strive for power end up on top, and those less fortunate are the recipients of the opposite fate.

[edit on 11-10-2007 by TheHorseChestnut]

reply to post by tac109


You've been programmed to think so. Socialism is more of the middle between having a government that wants nothing to do with you, only corporations (a capitalistic democracy), a communism (share everything), and socialism is capitalism with social programs (share some). We are the richest in the world, we should share enough to have full health care, clean cars/energy, new medicines, space exploration, etc... but we should definatly get rid of Social Security! OMG who doesnt save for retirement and plans to retire down in Florida on Social Security!!!! HAAHAHAHAHA

reply to post by 1111111111111

" I wish that i lived in surbia again, over there you survive and your happy somehow, they do it, why do we have to work so hard over hear to live and survive, id rather live in communism "

Hi one,
There are also billions of people living under the relative imprisonment of religions such as Islam and many other faiths that surpress (or do not encourage what we consider to be a modern, western lifestyle). Countless people prefer to live in undeveloped/ 3rd world countries. We in the west like constant news and information, the best of technology, the best car or cellphone and etc. In the scheme of things where are we going? Every sole is allowed to chose its own path. I will vote for the western lifestyle every time. Why assume that the rest of the world needs to follow suit?

reply to post by deathpoet69


Maybe this is just me, but does this seem more of a dictatorship than a free communist society?

Communism sounds good on paper but isnt particularly satisfying when it happens. look at when Mao was all powerful and stuff in China and gave everyone little red books banned woman from wearing dresses, banned people from getting education and forced everyone to farm. standards of living is pretty poor compared to now in australia where unemployment rate is lower then most countries.

That too-funny post about Star Trek communism reminded me of a Robert Smigel cartoon ("TV FUN HOUSE, TV FUN HOUSE") on SNL (Saturday Night Live, for certain non-Americans) about the Ex-Presidents (Reagan, Carter, Ford and Nixon). At the end they sang an Archies-sounding song with this hook:

"Aliens and communists are one in the same."

Very true that socialism as we know it doesn't work, but one can hardly imagine what new science can (or could) do for us if the nonhuman presence is revealed here. (Yeah, I know that was another recent thread). People will always need to compete for who can produce the best (or best bargain) goods and services, but I think post-Contact knowledge (if applicable) would allow us to provide at least (high quality) universal health care. Probably kick the holy s#*t out of the oil and war industries, though.