Is Communism really that bad?

reply to post by 1111111111111


communism isn't bad...
pure communism is kind of stupid, though

just like pure capitalism is stupid too

i think a nice hybrid of the two ideas would do us good

So you think its good to be contributing three times as much to society as your neighbour but getting paid the same as your neighbour or your earnings getting taken away from you?

Go travel to communist and ex-communist countries and see how bland and run-down they are then you will see the fruits of the "sameness" philosophy.

I have read a little about communism and capitalism in the context of comparison. and what I have come to conclude is, that communism, as well as capitalism, is just a form of economics and not politics. economics being the study or practice of the proper allocation of goods and services.

communism is a form of economics. it is a top down approach to the allocation of goods and services. where as, capitalism is a bottom up approach. there is always a top. but, the top in communism is totally in control of the bottom. the people on top determine who needs what, when, and where. the top in capitalism, being basically the money handlers and lenders, set the rules for money and let the bottom determine what goes where. the bottom being all those who create and participate in commerce.

communism is not bad. its just slower. where communism fails, much like capitalism, is when the people at the top who are responsible for the proper allocation of goods and services inject there own personal views and theories into the market place. and these people are appointed and not elected. the general populace who conducts the commerce has no recourse if they believe the people at the top have made poor decisions. in contrast, a capitalist economic system's populace has the power to remove by vote those people who appear unable to keep there personal views out of the market place. however, the capitalist structure being a bottom up system, provides the power to the people to allocate goods and services without the permission of those on top. which makes voting a last recourse.

that is just my opinion......

reply to post by 1111111111111


Communism= everyone suffers equally
Capitalism=those who are motivated, are successful

Communism ignores human nature, and provides no incentive for excellence or innovation. It is also responsible for over 100 million deaths in the 20th Century, and countless others who suffered under oppression.

"— 1 —
What is Communism?

Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat.


— 2 —
What is the proletariat?

The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labor and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whose life and death, whose sole existence depends on the demand for labor – hence, on the changing state of business, on the vagaries of unbridled competition. The proletariat, or the class of proletarians, is, in a word, the working class of the 19th century.[1]"


The article says that communism is a form of class that dose not live under a capital but the people live solely from labor, from hard work and they earn there money from there hard work, %100. Now you look at our capitalistic country, and the worker works hard, day and night and has to give half ( tax) to the gov, it's like a never ending chain that is connected to people, and wont let go, which goes back to control and power.

For example in the US isn't it true that, everyone works, and if you don't work you are poor and if you are poor you cant save up for your retirement, pay bills, pay tax, buy a car, have kids, Basically life consist of you JUST working and JUST paying bills and paying taxes, and credit cards, loans and so on..
communism is not necessarily about power, sure if its in the wrong hands it can seam evil, but in reality its not an evil way of life.
but our gov wants people to think think it is evil becouse some communist country's did not want to submit to the American policy so therefor they got taken out and given a decent democracy, and became allies ( friends) of America, if a country dose not ask to be given something, why force it upon them?

This is what i have noticed i have noticed that any country that is semi-free in thinking and way of life is run down and shut down, the only reason some country's like surbia or Russia are not physically appealing as America is only becouse it was run down and there way of life was broken, if our way of life was broken, ie, the gov was shut down, no pres, our whole government was attacked, do you really think that we would make it again as a capitalistic country? i think no.. it would be hard, and it would take years.

So think before you assume that living in a semi-free world is bad, living in a semi-slavery is worse.

But again if some people enjoy living to Pay-off the gov, thats understandable its hard to change, and sure it has become our way of life but that dose not mean that i have to accept it and respect it.



[edit on 11-10-2007 by 1111111111111]

reply to post by 1111111111111


ok, i see the purpose of your thread now.

east good...west bad.
why didnt you just title your thread "capitalisim sucks" or something like that?

In theory, communism works, In theory.......
-Homer Simpson


Communism is one of those deals you get in the mail... Too good to be true. In theory it should work, but......... You never will overcome basic human greed. We all suffer from it one level or another. Even those without it would not be able to offeset all the others.

Not to mention who leads the proletariat? As we have seen by the excesses in the Soviet era and In China, few can resesit the lure and trapping of power.

the only reason some country's like surbia or Russia are not physically appealing as America is only becouse it was run down and there way of life of broken

and would you care to elaborate how these states got to this condition? Let me guess...Reganomics?....Hollywood liberals?

For example in the US isn't it true that, everyone works, and if you don't work you are poor and if you are poor you cant save up for your retirement, pay bills, pay tax, buy a car, have kids, Basically life consist of you JUST working and JUST paying bills and paying taxes, and credit cards, loans and so on..

Um yes, but the key thing is you OWN the fruits of your labor, they are not allocated by the state. The success one attains is purely based on that individuals work ethic, not what some partisan see fit to bestow on them.

Have the pro communists on this thread actually lived in a communist country, or do you argue from a textbook because it is the sheik thing to do?

Originally posted by JSR

why didnt you just title your thread "capitalisim sucks" or something like that?

Like many who enjoy a pointless shouting session to name a thread like that would have sensible people just passing by. Maybe an especially raging individual would bite the bait but for the most part it would go ignored.

Title a thread indicating discussion or the ability to reason and many more people will chime in. Until of course, the true intent of the post is made known then maybe a few will hang around to yell back and forth but everyone else will abandon the thread.

Happens all the time.

reply to post by 1111111111111



Let's use this working definition from wikipedia:

"Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. "

Here is why communism is not just bad, it's horrible.

Eliminating "classes" means that any system to proportionally reward people for their ideas and labor must also be eliminated. The inventor of a vaccine that prevents AIDS would be in the same class as the junkies shooting heroin.

And suppose everybody was given the same plot of land. The person who farms the land to produce food for everybody else reaps the same rewards as the person who uses his land for nothing.

Once personal property rights are removed individuals no longer have incentive to do anything. Communism is the ultimate example of a total disregard of Game Theory. If a person has the same life style whether he works or not, then why work?

Also, the hidden implication of communism requires a ruling class to manage and police the "system." The rulers control the ownership of the means of production. Anybody with common sense must realize that a system of workers requires planning and management of the people.

Plus, without classes, a 20-year old has nothing to work towards -he will be in the same class when he's 60 as he is when he's 20.

Come to think of it, marriage is a great example of communism in action. It works 50% of the time when only two people are involved.

If you think communism is great try asking someone who lived in the Soviet Union,or in Cuba,the people I've met said they kiss the ground here

reply to post by JSR


Out of couriosity, what did you read? (Authors and titles) Im always looking for a good read, and very little is appealing to me these days.

Anyways, I can understand how you would interpret Communism as Top Down Rule, but the way I've always interpreted it is the opposite. The Wokers (prolitariate) control the means of production and the value created by it. The government is supposed to represent the interests of the worker and dictate acordingly with the proceeds of the Workers labour goes to benefiting the worker, and not the banker.

Whereas in a Capitalist state, the top (rich class) sphyon the surplus value (proceeds) of the worker upwards to fill their own coffers while doing none of the work.

Personally, im all for Anarcho-syndicalism (see: Anarcho-syndicalism)

For example in the US isn't it true that, everyone works, and if you don't work you are poor and if you are poor you cant save up for your retirement, pay bills, pay tax, buy a car, have kids, Basically life consist of you JUST working and JUST paying bills and paying taxes, and credit cards, loans and so on..

What!?

That is absolutely not true. I'm surrounded by people who havent worked in decades. Some are drunks, some crack heads and some are just lazy. They have nicer things than I do! Their retirement is paid for, their healthcare is paid for, their utilities are paid for, their crimes go ignored while I get the maximum fine for going 10 miles over the speed limit.

The poorest Americans have complaints about their cable TV going out. Their car(s) needing work, their AC unit being too heavy to put up into the window of their homes...

Where do people get these ideas? Americas poor are living a higher standard of life than most of the world.

All thanks to sucker taxpayers like myself.

reply to post by Oldtimer2


Too bad currently the US isnt a pure Capitalist system. It has democracy and some socialized aspects mixed into it (the roads, the airports, public schools and transit) It is the democratic actions of the previous generations (see: 1890 work conditions) that got US citizens the benefits they have today, the 8 hour work day, fare wages, environmental protections, ocupational saftey laws, child-labour laws, ect. It isnt capitalism taht produces those things, its democratic and social agitation that does.

Go to Capitalist N-i-g-e-r-i-a (done to evade the censor which will see that name as a bad word) and see the Capitalist system work the way it should.

reply to post by InSpiteOf


my two favorite books about economics are:

"Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy"
"Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One"
by: thomas sowell
www.tsowell.com...

there are few other books, but, i cant think of them now.....

That is absolutely not true. I'm surrounded by people who havent worked in decades. Some are drunks, some crack heads and some are just lazy. They have nicer things than I do! Their retirement is paid for, their healthcare is paid for, their utilities are paid for, their crimes go ignored while I get the maximum fine for going 10 miles over the speed limit.

That is so true these days, poverty is not the same definition it used to be. I think the reason the people want a socialist state to take care of them is so that they can feel free to buy flatscreens and "roll on 20's" without that whole pesky health insurance premium. Don't worry the state(taxpayer) will pay for it, they(taxpayer) owes us that. The mindset from the Great Depression era to the spoiled immature era we have now is almost alien in distance. No wonder communism seems appealing to some.

my two favorite books about economics are:

"Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy"
"Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One"
by: thomas sowell
www.tsowell.com...

Ahh Thomas Sowell, the man is ignored and underrated far too often. Now I could vote for a man of this stature.

Communism sucks.

I am a former communist well sorta I just had a "Soviet fetish" because I used to be an extremist atheist who just got all happy over the idea of Christians getting rounded up and shot.

Then I learned communism truly and not wanting change tried to like it but realized I hated it.

Consider socialism, much fairer, more sensible, and it does work.

It's basically a fair mix of capitalism and communism.

Personally I believe in the Fascist economic system; not fascism, as thats a bunch of stuff together, but just the economic system, perhaps mixed with a little bit of socialism.

Probably the truest picture of communism as it was supposed to be is star trek.
No one gets paid, everyone works for the betterment of their society.
Or as it was put in the manifesto - each works according to his ability and earns according to his needs. And the key word is "EARN" when there is no money.
It's why jean luc picard or kirk have bigger quarters, because they are under greater pressure and need more relaxation, than a lowly technician.

The world is blinded by money.
They can see nothing but money, and we constantly suffer for it.
Some day soon the whole fake money system will collapse, and then we may HAVE to try communism or something similar.

One of the central tenets of communism is to take away the greed, work hard and the state will provide whatever you might reasonably need - not everybody's idea of a good place, but surely better than the society in which we live now, where government doesn't work for the people, but to line their own pockets and sell themselves to the highest bidder.

Originally posted by budski

Probably the truest picture of communism as it was supposed to be is star trek.
No one gets paid, everyone works for the betterment of their society.
Or as it was put in the manifesto - each works according to his ability and earns according to his needs. And the key word is "EARN" when there is no money.
It's why jean luc picard or kirk have bigger quarters, because they are under greater pressure and need more relaxation, than a lowly technician.

The world is blinded by money.
They can see nothing but money, and we constantly suffer for it.
Some day soon the whole fake money system will collapse, and then we may HAVE to try communism or something similar.

One of the central tenets of communism is to take away the greed, work hard and the state will provide whatever you might reasonably need - not everybody's idea of a good place, but surely better than the society in which we live now, where government doesn't work for the people, but to line their own pockets and sell themselves to the highest bidder.

By definition, it is not communism, its the next step. Since there is NO money.

But yeah I understand...I just have this stigma with it I can't shake. And die-hard Marxists are some of the most obnoxious, smug people in the world next to Macintosh users.

Anarchy can go to hell, we'll get nothing done. A Fascist-esque one world government with certain specific freedoms is my personal type of government. I say Fascist-esque because it is similar but still not quite, since it won't be nationalistic, which I disagree with and hell how can you be nationalistic with a one world government? To who? No one else until we encounter other...wow I am going off-track.