No NTSB Investigation

Originally posted by LaBTop

I have two last questions to ask, to avoid any confusion :

1. Do you have the two actual barometric pressures from flight 77?
The first at take-off time at the take-off airport, and the second at the Pentagon (at "impact" time), so we can see if there was an eventual huge discrepancy between both data, which we eventually have to compensate for in that fixed pressure setting from the third altimeter at alleged "impact".

2. And was the third, fixed-altimeter barometric pressure setting at take-off the correct setting, in accordance with the actual pressure at the airport at that flight 77 take-off time on 9/11 ?

Below is the top right hand portion of the beginning of the Flight Data Recorder information.

Under the flight data about half way down are the first 8 channels of the total of about 156 channels of recorded information which starts at one minute before takeoff at 0819.

The fifth column (channel E) is the Pressure altitude which is recorded at 29.92 in.hg. It is the third, independent altimeter. The reason that they record at that figure is because it is what they call standard barometric pressure. It never changes.

What happens is that in case of an accident they compare that standard pressure altitude with the pressure setting on the pilots (channel CF) and co-pilots (channel CG) to get the exact altitude the airplane was at.

If they recorded the altitude as presented on the pilots and co-pilots altimeter they would be getting slightly different information depending on the accuracy of that particular altimeter.

Now if you look at the altitude as recorded by the third independent altimeter you can see it is 41 feet. That is the altitude of the aircraft at 29.92 in. hg. one minute before takeoff at Dulles.



Now look at the diagram below. That is the airport diagram and weather information for September 11, 2001. Look at the last line of the airport diagram information. It says that the airport elevation is 313 feet AMSL or above mean sea level.



If we take the altitude as recorded at 29.92 in.hg. of 41 feet and correct it for 30.21 in.hg. or 290 feet we come up with 331 feet or about 18 feet from the actual elevation of the airport which is about as close as you are going to get considering the 313 AMSL is an average for the entire airport.

So you can see that if the third altimeters last reading (below), before the alleged crash, was 173 feet at a local pressure setting of 30.22 in.hg. (Reagan altimeter setting taken at 1341Z, 0941 EDT) you would have to add 300 ft. to that altitude which makes 473 feet.



Now that FDR only ran one more second and to get to 30 foot Pentagon altitude or 443 lower altitude in 1 second you would have to have a descent rate of almost 27,000 feet per minute. It can’t happen. It didn't happen.

So if a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon then this FDR was not in it. Either that or somebody saw minus 270 feet in the channel E column, didn't understand why, and changed it to 173 feet. But if he wasn't smart enough to know why it was saying minus 270 feet then why did ‘he’ put 173 feet?

Was he thinking the last 143 feet wouldn’t make it to the recorder because of the crash?

If 173 feet is a fabricated number you wonder why ‘they’ didn’t notice the 41 feet at the beginning of the recording and didn’t change it to 313 feet, the actual field elevation of Dulles.

No Boeing 757 ever crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, that is without question.

There was not enough wreckage by a factor of 10 found. And this Flight Data Recorder, allegedly the Flight Data Recorder in American Airlines Flight #77 did not go low enough to have been in a Boeing 757 that allegedly crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001.

Thanks for the extensive answer, John.

You have convinced me that either the FDR data is partially tampered with, or the whole FDR report is a fabrication, handed over to the NTSB.
And from that moment on, we hope it was out of the hands of the fabricators, and only honestly interpreted as usual by NTSB personnel.

To find more details concerning my questions, I went to the Pilots for 9/11 Truth forums.
There I found this following information, addressing eventual debunking from their work :

Debunking Fdr Debunking, Common Arguments Addressed.
z9.invisionfree.com...

It lead me to this page :
Can The Govt Get Their Story Straight? - Location Of Flight Data Recorder.
pilotsfor911truth.org...

where this widely unknown fact can be found :

It is not unprecedented where Flight Data Recorders have been switched/planted. The Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology have determined that the FDR recovered from the crash of Air France 296 is "either... not... the DFDR of the crashed Airbus A320 on the photograph... or the DFDR presented at the trial is NOT the one from the crashed Airbus A320."
(AirDisaster.com :
www.airdisaster.com... )

So, if the casual reader would have thought it to be unthinkable for "black boxes" to have been falsified or straight out planted with false data inside before, then there, in the above link, is the fact which will shatter your former believe and trust in the "authorities".

This is a screen shot at 1 second before official impact time provided by Pilotsfor9/11Truth ( Source ).
It's from the FDR animation constructed by the NTSB from their own data and delivered by the NTSB on CD ROM to that FOIA requester.



Observe the far too high position of the plane to ever be capable to cut any part of any light poles near the Pentagon. However these 5 cut poles were shown to us from hour one at day one.
Or be able to divebomb from that shown last second position, suddenly into the Pentagon's west wall at the alleged impact point.
According to the data shown, it then flew 462 knots, 530 miles/hour.
A Boeing 757 isn't a WWII German Stuka divebomber. And even that one could not have made such a sudden steep dive in 1 second, from the shown (alleged) altimeter reading of 180 feet to 10 feet.
Such a steep dive also doesn't fit the perfectly horizontal smoke trail depicted in the last two Pentagon security camera videos, provided by the US DoD.

According to Jim Ritter, chief vehicle performance from NTSB, in an official letter sent to one of the Pilotsfor9/11Truth members, the flight 77 impact time has been clocked as 09:37:45 AM.
See this Source.

More evidence that there are serious flaws with that NTSB FDR data :

Source : z9.invisionfree.com...

The NTSB Evidence

- The FDR is not Documented per any investigative or crime scene procedure
- The Factual Report (and in reference the CSV Output) directly and factually conflict with the 'Damage Path'
- A 2nd independent readout of the raw file further supports these conflicts, and adds even more.
- There is no Serial Number
- There is no picture
- There is no final output (see the UA93 Factual Report + others)
- There is zero documentation
- The FDR is reported recovered at 3:40AM 9/14/2001
- The RAW file is timestamped at 5:45PM 9/13/2001
- The NTSB Reports are from Jan-Feb 2002.

As you can read in the full link to the story about the tampered black boxes data from the French Airbus crash in my former post, judicial personnel takes it as their highest priority to safeguard these black boxes data as soon as can be. ( www.airdisaster.com... )

In the case of flight 77, there is even no documentation of flight 77 FDR data in an existing published crime scene investigation, so also not the Moussagoui court case.

No serial number has been given for the black boxes, so we could match those with the known numbers for the tail number from flight 77.

There is no final data output, which indicates tampering, or an illogical malfunction of both boxes at 1 second before impact (boxes are located in the tail root, so no damage was possible caused by eventual light poles crashing into them.

[edit on 23/10/07 by LaBTop]

reply to post by johnlear



I have to admit That is impressive John. Here you have put something up that is worthy of a valid response. What do you think actually took place at the Pentagon? A fly over? Or something else?

Originally posted by talisman

I have to admit That is impressive John. Here you have put something up that is worthy of a valid response. What do you think actually took place at the Pentagon? A fly over? Or something else?

Thanks talisman.

First of all I would like to make it clear that I wasn't the first one to point out the discrepancy in the final altitude. If Craig or Rob are reading this they could tell you who the first one to figure it out was.

As far as what actually happened all I have is speculation.

We know that there are 4 witnesses who saw a white airplane fly towards the Pentagon and it was north of the Citgo station.

It may have been a flyover.

It may have been a holograph.

But no Boeing 757 crashed into the Pentagon.

reply to post by LaBTop


What if the government destroyed the boxes? Maybe they didn't want information about WHO really hijacked the planes coming forward?

Originally posted by johnlear
We know that there are 4 witnesses who saw a white airplane fly towards the Pentagon and it was north of the Citgo station.

John,

Do we know if might be the same white plane that was spotted at Shankesville?

originally posted by LabTop
It lead me to this page :
Can The Govt Get Their Story Straight? - Location Of Flight Data Recorder.
pilotsfor911truth.org...

The pilotsfor911truth link you posted earlier insinuates that there were three black boxes found at the Pentagon because of contradictory reports by officials at the Pentagon. I posted this link PDF in another thread that JDX(Rob Balsamo) was posting on in this forum and he kind of laughed it off because it was the HTML version and it looked goofy or something.

I read the air disaster.com link that you provided, but I haven't looked into it any further yet. I got distracted and read the entire 11 pages of debate between the "Anonymous Self-Proclaimed FDR Expert and Govt Loyalist'' and the two p4911t data experts. I can give you the link if you're interested.

Originally posted by LaBTop

It is not unprecedented where Flight Data Recorders have been switched/planted. The Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology have determined that the FDR recovered from the crash of Air France 296 is "either... not... the DFDR of the crashed Airbus A320 on the photograph... or the DFDR presented at the trial is NOT the one from the crashed Airbus A320."
(AirDisaster.com :
www.airdisaster.com... )

So, if the casual reader would have thought it to be unthinkable for "black boxes" to have been falsified or straight out planted with false data inside before, then there, in the above link, is the fact which will shatter your former believe and trust in the "authorities".

That's an interesting snippet. It's clearly possible, of course, to swap black boxes if the need arose. Or to simply alter the data after the fact.

However,an alternate explanation for the wrong numbers appearing:
John Farmer just found the data stops about 4-6 seconds before impact.
page
This location - short of the Navy Annex - is said by Farmer to match JDX's earlier altitude findings, as the terrain there is much higher. I haven't verified, but it also would make the pitch and roll angles attributed to the impact frame irrelevant to that question.

Oddly enough, the coordinates given in 'readout 2' of the L3 file match this - at 9:37:45 it shows the plane at that same spot. (Can't find where I'd saved those findings - can dig up if anyone wants)

Possibilities:
1) the data stop at that point is right and the actual impact is several seconds later than reported, the last seconds missing
2) The data is of an earlier moment stamped with the wrong time and the rest truncated
3) the data is wrong on pitch, roll, altitude, and location but right on time.
4) The data is altered and its hard to say what was really happening.

Considering missing seconds, I've seen little evidence that much missing is normal, but I'm no expert. Could be the missing seconds that make so many points moot provide their own clues. Can this much time be self-truncated, or is this malicious?



[edit on 26-10-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Malicious?

Take this in account, then decide yourself :

If 4 to 6 seconds would be missing from the recordings of a very strong black box, ask yourself what logical event could have caused this box to suddenly stop recording all these data streams from numerous probes from all over the airframe, at a flight distance so far from the alleged point of impact, that hitting eventual light poles on the way down, at that record halting moment, is out of question.
And even a few light poles hit by the wing rims would definitely not have damaged these black boxes in the tail root.

The most logical reason to evade those last seconds, is to avoid the eventual recording during a real time event, of the inevitable data of the deceleration process of all subsequent -still sending data- parts of the airframe, when impacting a solid brick wall, reinforced with steel beams and Kevlar nettings.
Since the black boxes were placed at the tail root, the whole airframe in front of them would be decelerating first, before those boxes would reach the point of impact them selfs.

A probe sending data from the nose cone would be silenced first, but one at the wings would still sending data, but now from deceleration events.
The tail probes would send data for the longest time frame (milliseconds by the way),

There probably was no trustworthy data from other, earlier air disasters, from such a very high speed impact at a solid brick wall, which was also breached and then let the remains of the airframe slip through all the broken bricks, steel beams and Kevlar nettings.

Supposedly there was not enough time or expertise to alter the black boxes in such a way, that the airframe deceleration process would be included, done good enough to fool the whole scientific community, while scrutinizing those data streams afterwards.

Thus the decision was made to opt for the easiest solution, just cut away the last flight seconds.
This would be much easier to defend by government theories advocates, than a real complicated fraudulent impact scenario.
It would easily implement enough doubt in the minds of less physics educated people, to succeed in such a fraud.

And that's what is needed in the end, enough voters to keep defending the official theories, or just not challenging them.

It takes several seconds for the black boxes to process the information. This means that the last few seconds before loss of all input are always going to be missing. In most cases this is not an issue since the intention was to determine what kind of mechanical or piloting error was the cause of a crash. It was not intended for pinpoint accuracy that the pilotsfortruth people are trying to use it for. And they are preying on as well as exploiting this issue to try to bolster a conspiracy. Just like they do by trying to present the demonstration video that came with the data as an accurate representation of what happened.

It was not intended for pinpoint accuracy that the Pilotsfor911Truth people are trying to use it for. And they are preying on as well as exploiting this issue to try to bolster a conspiracy. Just like they do by trying to present the demonstration video that came with the data as an accurate representation of what happened.

Let's ask the professionals at the NTSB :

www.ntsb.gov...

With the data retrieved from the FDR, the Safety Board can generate a computer animated video reconstruction of the flight. The investigator can then visualize the airplane's attitude, instrument readings, power settings and other characteristics of the flight. This animation enables the investigating team to visualize the last moments of the flight before the accident.

Other flight data recorder (FDR) and cockpit voice recorder (CVR) links of interest :
www.howstuffworks.com... (contains 13 more pages)
en.wikipedia.org... (lots of add. links)


SOURCE: Google Book search : Black Box: The Air-crash Detectives : why Air Safety is No Accident, By Nicholas Faith

Page 18 : One such occasion was when a Boeing 757 plunged in the Carribean in early February 1996, with the loss of 189 lives.

Page 22 : The last 8 seconds of the flight gave him the impact speed and the attitude of the aircraft etc.

So you still hold to your assumption that the last seconds of EACH black box are missing, snoopy ?

Or do you have a link that could proof you right, since I have 14 more which proof me right, in the fact that the FDR data is recorded up till the last functioning data impulses.

Part of the point of a FDR, flight data recorder (also known as "black box", although they're usually orange) is that it records the last dying impulses of the aircraft.

This is an interesting soundbit, an interview with Rob Balsamo from Pilotsfor911truth :

z9.invisionfree.com...

Basically, they proved the "plane" was too high following the FDR data, at the moment of "impact" at the Pentagon west wall.
The plane was at 273 feet, instead of 20 feet at the first floor height.
Just compare the NTSB Radar Altimeter data with the barometric meters readings.

Download the interview,

www.tnrlive.com...

and start at the 1:10:00 point, and listen carefully what Rob has to say about the theory of the 2 or even 3 seconds "missing" from the NTSB FDR data, according to a few official conspiracy theorists.

I lately see more and more vague and misty comments on shocking revelations of possible treason, to cause doubt in the minds of less informed readers.

It seems this is the latest technique, together with psychological anger raising posts, to seed disaster at all 9/11 forums.
We know they have decades of psychological influencing experience behind them, through all kind of media outlets, so this is their last resort, before they -perhaps- start killing, to them, annoying people off again.

To the forefront reporters, investigators and posters, BE CAREFULL, watch your environment for strange, be it small events.
The agencies will not hesitate to eradicate problems the way they are fond of for the last decades since WW II.

originally posted by LaBTop
Part of the point of a FDR, flight data recorder (also known as "black box", although they're usually orange) is that it records the last dying impulses of the aircraft.

I agree with you on that point. But, I don't think that is always the case. Here is a link (PDF) to the AA587 NTSB report. Go to the bottom of page 5 and read the paragraphs under the title Last Recorded FDR Data.

I must admit that the FDR data stuff is way over my head and I am open to any suggestion.

Also from AA587

FDR data ends about 20 seconds before the cockpit voice recorder(CVR) went silent, which was about the time of impact, according to investigators.

Isn't it funny how Rob claims that the recorder puts the plane too high to hit the building, but he also makes the argument that the last 3-7 seconds are missing (which he claims his analysis of the FDR concluded)? That alone pretty much shows that the guy is a liar. Not to mention he constantly uses articles to lead people to believe he is pulling from many sources, when in reality he writes them all himself.

Boone, I suppose you did read the preceding sentence of that CNN.com article, dated November 16, 2001; about the last minute of flight 587 also :

Investigators have said the debris trail indicates the Airbus 300 first lost its tail fin and rudder, then both engines before the fuselage plunged to earth, killing 265 people.

The FDR data ends about 20 seconds before the cockpit voice recorder(CVR) went silent, which was about the time of impact, according to investigators.

As I linked already to extensive info on black boxes in the post you answered to, you could have known, since I also typed that info out already too, that these boxes are situated in the tail root.

And yes, as we can read, in this case the whole tail broke off first, before the rest of the airframe plunged in the bay, 20 seconds later.

Such a premature tail loss however did not take place at the Pentagon event, according to all witnesses, the NTSB and the grainy and lousy camera pictures from the checkpoint boot.

Flight 77's tail was still attached to the fuselage when its nose cone touched the west wall of the Pentagon, thus the black boxes were still recording the deceleration process of all plane probes in real time.


Btw, Airbus did have a faulty flight handbook entrance, about how to react as a pilot entering in wake turbulence. This is evaluated on, during a one hour documentary from the Discovery Channel Europe about flight 587.
They advised to move the flight stick from full left to full right rudder a few times, when the plane would start to behave erratically in wake turbulence.
This however exceeded the build-in rudder strength. It broke off.
I'm curious if that was ever aired in the USA. In Europe 2 months ago.


Snoopy, I envy your certainty about your previous and present governments elected officials stories and explanations.

I however, call most of them lies, by compulsive liars.

reply to post by LaBTop


I misread both of the link I provided.

According to the NTSB, the FDR stopped recording 2.5 seconds after the vertical fin came off but it doesn't give a reason why. A couple of articles that I read states that the FDR gets its power from the engines (both of which fell off before impact). I'm still confused if you didn't notice.