Women need to shut up and sit down

Originally posted by Kacen

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
in the same book where it says it's an "abomination" that men have long hair

Hmm...

I rest my case.

And yet Sampson was specifically told to NOT cut his hair. Hmmm is right.
So what then? Again the issue of contradiction.
I set out tyo read the bible when I was about 12, without the preacherman telling me what I was reading.. using my own common sense. I got as far as, Hey, let me throw you my virgin daughters and let you rape THEM as opposed to these guys I picked up on the streets a couple hours ago, and know nothing about before I realized that something was inherently WRONG with this book.
And HELLO, if someone TAKES HOLD OF, or LAYS HOLD OF, the implications is of grabbing with your hands. If someone grabs with their hands a female, and lays with them, sounds pretty darned close to rape if you ask me.
All throughout the bible women are treated as trash.
Why can a woman not teach? Why does it SPECIFY that a woman must remain silent? What? men don't chatter??
Come on. If the admonishment were for all, it would say when in a church, period. But women are pointed out again and again and again. But men may commit the same sin as it were and walk away.
I mean, really.. How many passages say to stone a MAN for not being a virgin?
The LDS missionaries come out to my house here and again, I like for them to come, I like talking with them. But there is one thing we cannot get around, and that is that anything that has come to me by way of man, (human) is fallible, because we are all fallible.
God is NOT, and I do believe in God, but not the bible, which has the fingerprints of too many men on it. All of those men who have made the bible what it is, picking and choosing what holy texts would be included, and which would not, (The Gospel of Thomas anyone?).. and let's not even get into the vagrities of the translations..
This is the one thing I know. God is love, and ANYTHING in the bible that is not of love is of man. Simple as that.

Originally posted by jabawaki
I am not saying I accept any of this but what I do find interesting....
If the bible is not the word of God then none of this matters, but...
and here's the really sexy part, If it is the word of God, when did we get veto power over it?

When the gift of free will was givin to us by God. So it can be said clearly that God gave us the veto power over it.

It's either submit or ignore. Do women DEMAND that God accept their view of the world?

I can't submit, it's against my nature to do so.

I have heard modern American women are a tad arrogant but this has got to be some kind of record. The word of God as edited and approved by the Women's Association of America. Coming to a church near you soon.
Will Jesus return or will God give in to the demands of the N.O.W. that this time He send a daughter instead of a son? How will the women of America punish Him if He disobeys? Will He be sent to His room or just denied sex?

So in other words, women need to sit down and shut up? Heaven forbid that women should be able to have a opinion, or to speak there mind positive or negative, ok my bad, heaven/God did forbid this.

Real simple. IF there is no God then simply ignore all this nonsense. But if you believe there is then ask yourself if you really believe He seeks your approval? If God exist I doubt heaven is a democracy and/or that public opinion polls carry any real weight. YOU think He is wrong. AND? SO?

Put your trust in a book written during the bronze age, a book that condones sexism, racism, by a genocidal God, a book written my men, and said to be inspired by God by men.

reply to post by LDragonFire

34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 1 Corinthians 14:34

If you celebrate Thanksgiving, Christmas, or any other major family holiday, I want you to look at what the females do for these days verses what the men do. The women do the cooking, inviting the guests, organizing the events, and do the cleaning up while the men show up, eat, then crash on the couch to watch the game.

It is in the female's personality to take over social events while it is in the male personality to take over career responsibility. The men typically went to work in that day while women took care of EVERYTHING else. This instruction was to place the responsibility of church leadership on the men to get them involved.

The men were not to sit around in the "pews" just showing up to another event. God wanted them to get involved and stand up to be the leaders. If you read other parts, the women were deaconesses, missionaries, and even preachers. But the primary responsibility to lead churches were given to men for a very good reason.

18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Colossians 3:18

And what does the very next verse say to the men? Husband love your wives. Ephesians 5:25 even orders men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. That is some serious love.

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. EPHESIANS 5:22-24

And what does the context say? Read the chapter- you will see it gives more commands to the man in respect to the wife than the one instruction given to the woman. Remember, Just as Jesus submitted to the father, God asks the woman to submit to the husband. This does not remotely mean one is more important than the other. They are both completely equal as spiritual beings but in this life, God tells us the order of hierarchy. It's structure and nothing more.

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. Deuteronomy 22:5

How is this important? It's an equal instruction to both genders.

Men who know the truth are scared of the power inherent in the female, such as HECATE in her triple form. She brings life, preserves life, and takes life.

If women were aware of the truth of the triple form men wouldn't be able to have so much control. It was deemed necessary to disempower the female because she was feared so much and for good reason I might add.

reply to post by interestedalways




Doesn't a man do those things too, just in a different way?

I hope this is not another one liner.

Squabble over details and you miss the big picture.

The big picture, and what is blatantly obvious to me is this:

The universe is a result of god, yes? And it is perfect.

The bible is not perfect, therefore it is not from god.

The universe is gods bible to us.

reply to post by T0by


Very well stated. I see the error in my thinking in terms of seperation.

You are right. It is good not to get caught up in trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense.

Thanks for the perspective.

reply to post by T0by


This is the point of all my Jesus threads, the bible is a very imperfect book, as are all humans. We are flawed to the core, the only thing in our life that is not flawed is nature, but we are rectifying this as we speak.

But wait! I feel a bible verse coming. To guide the heathen hordes into the light.

Women need to shut up and sit down

We will just as soon as you boys stop screwing up the planet.

People have lost track of the fact that in the mystery schools there are two sets of teachings. The one that is dominating our societies today is that which works with the male energy. By hiding the female counterpart is like working with only half a brain.

They compliment each other but as long as we live in a lopsided situation we will always well............be lopsided.

The mysteries are two fold. Symetrical if you will but half has been taken from us and hidden

reply to post by MajorMalfunction


Major has it correct that Goddess worship was what was first practiced and over time it changed to a patriachal worship.

However, in the ancient cletic socieites, back in the mists of time, women were the ones who defended the lands and homes. It was believed that women were the more vicious when their homes and families were in danger. And if you think about it, that is still the case. You see it with mother bears, lions, etc. The females becomes extremely aggressive when their spawn and homes are in jeopardy.

Either way, the theory was women taught the men how to fight and over time, men took on the role of defenders and hunters while women were relegated to the roles of child rearing and tending to the home.

If ever there was proof that the bible was written by man for man, then it is surely how it views women and says women should be treated. However, I will dare to say this.

Some christians will try to explain that the words of the bible are not meant to enslave women to men, but rather it was suppose to teach men to love their wives as they loved christ and to treat them as queens. Sadly, it was men that misconstrued this and subjugated women beneath them.

My personal opinion is the bible is a tool for oppression, both male oppression and female oppression and is best served as a collection of mythical tales, some of which have good lessons that we should listen to. The rest should be discarded as nothing more than stories.

VV

Originally posted by ValhallasValkyrie
reply to post by MajorMalfunction

 

Major has it correct that Goddess worship was what was first practiced and over time it changed to a patriachal worship.

I generally agree with this.

However, in the ancient cletic socieites, back in the mists of time, women were the ones who defended the lands and homes. It was believed that women were the more vicious when their homes and families were in danger. And if you think about it, that is still the case. You see it with mother bears, lions, etc. The females becomes extremely aggressive when their spawn and homes are in jeopardy.

Defence I could also agree with this, like you posted just look at nature.

Either way, the theory was women taught the men how to fight and over time, men took on the role of defenders and hunters while women were relegated to the roles of child rearing and tending to the home.

I disagree with this, again look at nature, while women are the defenders of home and young, males are offensive [ha ha ok whatever!] and fight for territory and mating rights.

If ever there was proof that the bible was written by man for man, then it is surely how it views women and says women should be treated. However, I will dare to say this.

Some christians will try to explain that the words of the bible are not meant to enslave women to men, but rather it was suppose to teach men to love their wives as they loved christ and to treat them as queens. Sadly, it was men that misconstrued this and subjugated women beneath them.

My personal opinion is the bible is a tool for oppression, both male oppression and female oppression and is best served as a collection of mythical tales, some of which have good lessons that we should listen to. The rest should be discarded as nothing more than stories.

VV

Agreed and well said.

I disagree with this, again look at nature, while women are the defenders of home and young, males are offensive [ha ha ok whatever!] and fight for territory and mating rights.

Agreed, I can see this. Though if you think women don't have cat fights over "mating rights" you haven't hung around many women when they see a man they all want. Women can get downright vicious and catty when several want the same man!

VV

[edit on 8/12/07 by ValhallasValkyrie]

reply to post by ValhallasValkyrie


LOL ok i get your point, but I don't think this really happens much in nature.

Jealousy in women can be attractive, but only to a point.

wow I can't believe "cat fight" came up in this thread.

ok back on topic. I wonder if in ancient times, when women were the deities, if the women in the society were the more religious of the sexes?

Whatever happen to politeness, please be quiet and sit down, thank you.

(Just kidding ladies.)

Enjoy yourselves, this is a thread dedicated entirely to you.


Reminder, JUST KIDDING.

kNOW YOUR ROLE GET IN THAT KITCHEN AND COOK ME SOMETHING GOOD DAMNIT, GOOD I TELL YA.



oH Brother, or should I say SISTER.

Oh the Duality of mankind, man in the form of WOMAN.

This thread is too much.

ok back on topic. I wonder if in ancient times, when women were the deities, if the women in the society were the more religious of the sexes?

I would like to see a study on that in this day an age. Which of the species is the more religious.

I know in my family, with the exception of one my cousin's husband, the females are the more religious.

Though, I am the most religious in my family though I do not follow Christianity.

I would have to say that I think in ancient times, women were the more religious. At least in some of the societies that existed. I mean, in greek mythology, you see women being the oracles. There was never a male oracle (at least not one that I can remember).

And it is things like this that have me enrolled for my degree in Religious Studies at the university here!

VV

**Editted twice due to pesky typo trolls and human errors!!**

[edit on 8/12/07 by ValhallasValkyrie]

[edit on 8/12/07 by ValhallasValkyrie]

reply to post by AshleyD



And what does the context say? Read the chapter- you will see it gives more commands to the man in respect to the wife than the one instruction given to the woman. Remember, Just as Jesus submitted to the father, God asks the woman to submit to the husband. This does not remotely mean one is more important than the other. They are both completely equal as spiritual beings but in this life, God tells us the order of hierarchy. It's structure and nothing more.

just how far did Christ go with the obedience to his father bit.....oh, ya, to the point of being crucified, because it was God's will...
seems to me that one instruction is oh so all encompassing, doesn't it....
seems that that one instructions was all that was needed, really...let's see....you commit yourself to God through christ, and low and behold straight away, he hands you off to your husband, obey him, like you would me.....well, talk to some of these fundamentalists types, and it is wrong to even question this idea......so, if it is wrong to question God when it comes to questioning the idea that you are susposed to be submissive to your husband, regardless of weather he's a saint, or a drunk in an alley, and you are to submit to you husband as Christ, well, then I quess it would be equally wrong to question your drunkened husband when he tells you to go prostitute yourself for the money he wants to by his next drink with?
thus, my first point, christian doctrine, according to the bible, does not open salvation up for all women, since, straight off, it hands her over to her husband....to do as he wishes.
if he doesn't wish for her to act in a chistian manner, well.....one of the two are gonna not be submitted to.

and the Bible does give the husband the final say.

[edit on 8-12-2007 by dawnstar]

[edit on 8-12-2007 by dawnstar]

Remember, though. The man submits to God. We are even told God will reject the prayers of a man who mistreats his wife. Furthermore, this doesn't mean a woman should be beat, sent out into prostitution, etc. If the man loves his wife like Christ loved the church, he would never treat her in this way. But let's say you have a Christian wife who is married to an unbeliever. She can either divorce him or go to her pastor who will step in.

My husband never did the things mentioned above or anything near it but when he was doing things I resented, my pastor would come over and talk to him. This absolutely does not mean men can do anything to their wives and the wives must put up with it.

Again, the children submit to the mother, the mother to the father, the father to Jesus, and Jesus to God. Personally, I don't know of any modern religion that provides so many safeguards to women as Christianity and Judaism does.

The original post took the words out of context.

The point of the WHOLE BOOK of first corinthians was that the church was located in the midst of a very sexist society. In fact, Greek culture from the first century AD is the culture that mohammad copied and imposed on the whole muslim world.

Women had to wear veils in public. Women were not allowed to speak in public assemblies. Women were not allowed any public leadership roles.

But women at the church in corinth were "acting up" and being treated as equal to the men, using Paul's own teaching.

for instance: Galatians 3:28:

Now there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

They were behaving as equals within the walls of the church.

The problem was, the unbelievers, men, who came in to visit the church, when women were taking off their veils and speaking up in church.

Notice that some women were refusing to wear veils:

I corinthians 11:6
For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.

More to the point, preaching and prophesying were leader-activities in the church. women fulfilled these offices, too, which freaked out their pagan greek neighbors:

I corinthians 11:5

but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven.

And yet prophecy, which women performed, was one of the highest "leader" functions:

I Corinthians 14:4-5a

4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

Obviously Paul knew that women were leading people spiritually. But what he was afraid of was anti-Christian riots, which often occurred when people felt that Christianity was a social revolution, and not merely a spiritual one.

Most of the early objections to christianity was that it was a religion of slaves and commoners and was unfitting for the nobility, the social elite. Little has changed, IMO.

Besides, what culture are you judging it against?

American pop culture? The Middle East today? The Middle East of the first century A.D.? Or just your own personal notion of how Paul should have been telling those people to run their church?

Funny how the OP was careful include all the "worst verses" he could find; but apperently didn't know (or conviently forgot) any positive passages like

"In Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free . . ."

For me, it's no problem to say that there are human opinions in the Bible, since I believe it is the Word of God in the words of men. Paul isn't my favorite writer; but even HE admits that at times he has no "word from the LORD" but only his personal opinions.

I know that most of the anti-Christians who post here are not open to any ideas but their own; they're welcome to them. But I posted my thoughts for those who wonder what careful readers of the Bible, who've taken the time to study these ancient documents in context might have to say, and how they integrate such passages into their faith.

all the best.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


The bible is Clearly a sexist work of fiction, not only is it sexist it's also contradictory see other thread in signature. This thread has clearly shown for those that have read it, that for every pro woman verse their are at least one anti-woman verse.

The Abrahamic religions Christianity, Islam and as for the other I'm not sure about are all anti woman to the core. I took Nothing out of context, I only stated what is written in this book you call from God. I say it's from insecure human males.

IMO all of these religions fear a free thinking female, they fear a strong willed female in the end they mirror the feelings of a insecure male. It is clearly social conditioning in a attempt to keep women in their place.

If it is clearly a apple, please don't try to convince me it is a orange.