U.S. Marshal: NH Tax Evaders (Ed and Elaine Brown) Arrested

Originally posted by DJMessiah
My history teacher once told me that congress had sworn to only have one tax, if given the power to tax. Now we have taxes on everything from food to money left over for us from dead grandparents.

Your history teacher needs a history lesson
Did he mean one TYPE of tax. Taxes on things has never been the problem (except when the taxes have been too high). There's no civilized country that could survive without it. It's taxes on income that's being questioned.

Though people complain and complain about it, I've yet to hear a feasible alternative. You take away the income tax and everything, and I mean everything, would be taxed out the wahzoo....

reply to post by Valdimer


I'm not buying that. I think Faux News is trying to make terrorists out of them. I caught a snippet of this story on the radio this morning on the way to work, and not a word of it again all day until now. I actually did not hear the names on the radio, (only because I missed most of the story) but somehow I just knew they were talking about the Browns.

reply to post by C0le
i have always felt that in reality we really can own nothing in this country that is truly ours, we are all slaves to the system!

I'm curious - when you people read the Constitution, do you intentionally skip over Article 1, Section 8 or do you simply disregard it because it clashes with your "philosophy"? And, bear in mind, I'm not talking about the Constitution as revised, I'm talking about as it was originally written.

The power to "lay and collect taxes" was given to Congress - which, last I knew, is part of the FEDERAL government - by the founding fathers when they wrote the Constituion in 1776.

Willful ignorance is no excuse for outright stupidity. If you want to change the law, work to change it but don't claim it doesn't exist when it's right there in the Constitution where anyone can read it.

As for the Browns, they allowed people they HAD NEVER MET into and out of that place constantly. It was only a matter of time before they were tricked into taking in someone they shouldn't. The S.W.A.T. team going after them several weeks ago was a joke - and a funny one if you were here when it went down! This way was better, no one was hurt, Ed and Elaine live to continue the fight - which I'm sure they will - and yet everyone seems to be UPSET that it was accomplished without bloodshed.

Did everyone WANT another Ruby Ridge?

Originally posted by Nitehawke
do you intentionally skip over Article 1, Section 8 or do you simply disregard it because it clashes with your "philosophy"?

It does not mention a tax on labor nor does it mention a tax on income, and even if it did, it gives Congress power to tax, not a central bank such as the Federal Reserve or an agency such as the IRS.

Originally posted by Nitehawke
If you want to change the law, work to change it but don't claim it doesn't exist when it's right there in the Constitution where anyone can read it.

Show me the law.

Originally posted by Nitehawke
and yet everyone seems to be UPSET that it was accomplished without bloodshed.

They did nothing wrong and were arrested. That's why we're upset.

reply to post by Nitehawke

This gives them the ability to tax and says what the tax is to be used for.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

This defines the limitations of the tax.
(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)


The 16th amendment, this is the section which defines the type of tax, and gives title 26 the ability to tax income.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

The money you receive in exchange for your work, is not taxable income as defined by the U.S Code.



[edit on 5-10-2007 by C0le]

Congress also has the power to

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Congress has given this power away to a Private
Central bank, This bank is known to us as the Federal Reserve, Some would
and do believe that the Federal Reserve is a part of the United States
Government, It is not, It is a privately owned institution operated by
various share holding banks and bankers.

The Federal Reserve prints money backed by nothing out of thin air, then
loans it to our Government at interest, this means for every dollar our
Government borrows, comes a certain percentage of interest attached to it.

This loan is the national debt.
Now again our Government borrows money from the Federal Reserve at
interest when it doesn't need to borrow anything as it has the powers to
create and regulate the value of money all on its own.

Now as the findings of the Grace commission have shown us, All of the
money from income taxes go directly to repaying this debt, Not one penny
of it goes to the things most Americans would believe it would go to. such
as infrastructure ect..

Seeing as all of our money comes from this central bank, when we go to pay
back this debt, Where do we get the money to pay for the interest from?

Our Government borrows even more money from the Federal Reserve, thus
increasing the debt.


This debt can never be repaid, It was never meant to be.
Congress has not only given away its power to create money to Private
bankers, but also the power to regulate the value of it.

It doesn't "mention" a tax on labor?? What, pray tell, would you have taxed? Where does it say "Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on everything EXCEPT labor"?? Congress was given the power to collect taxes, it stands to reason that those taxes would be collected from wages earned. Would you prefer that all taxes be collected only from property owners - or would you, perhaps, like to be able to own property? Because only the very rich would have that luxury if all taxes were collected through property ownership.

Or perhaps you would prefer that the only taxes be sales tax. Wanna add that one up and figure out what your grocery bill would be? Or would you prefer that all taxes be collected by the states and then the Fed could collect their "share" directly from the states? Where do you suppose the states would get the money? See above because those are the revenue sources the money would come from.

And, by the way, Article 1, Section 8, last paragraph: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

THAT gives Congress the ability to make laws regarding the collection of taxes and could also be interpreted to include the creation of a government branches to OVERSEE the implementation of those laws - the IRS and the Fed Reserve.

I disagree with the government on a lot of things. I don't agree with the way they handle my money and I'd love to see the tax laws overhauled BUT, to simply say they should be "abolished" or to just refuse to pay your taxes because you disagree IS ILLEGAL. That, in itself, is "doing something wrong" and grounds for being arrested. You want the laws changed, I will say it again, fight to CHANGE them but before you start encouraging others to follow the same path as the Browns and all those before them - most of whom were not as "lucky" as the Browns - why don't you tell us what YOUR plan would be to fund all the federal services currently paid for with the taxes collected. Come on, let's hear the grand plan for keeping the country running WITHOUT a federal income tax.

Originally posted by Nitehawke
It doesn't "mention" a tax on labor?? What, pray tell, would you have taxed? Where does it say "Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on everything EXCEPT labor"?? Congress was given the power to collect taxes, it stands to reason that those taxes would be collected from wages earned. Would you prefer that all taxes be collected only from property owners - or would you, perhaps, like to be able to own property? Because only the very rich would have that luxury if all taxes were collected through property ownership.

Your not getting it are you? the INCOME TAX which is what they are fighting against, DOESN'T APPLY TO LABOR.
also most Americans don't own property, thats why they can tax it. we rent it.

Or perhaps you would prefer that the only taxes be sales tax. Wanna add that one up and figure out what your grocery bill would be? Or would you prefer that all taxes be collected by the states and then the Fed could collect their "share" directly from the states? Where do you suppose the states would get the money? See above because those are the revenue sources the money would come from.

Come on, let's hear the grand plan for keeping the country running WITHOUT a federal income tax.

as stated the FEDERAL INCOME TAX doesn't pay for what you think it does, but here, www.uhuh.com...

the income tax which doesn't apply to labor or most Americans pays for a debt which has no reason to exist.

And, by the way, Article 1, Section 8, last paragraph: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

THAT gives Congress the ability to make laws regarding the collection of taxes and could also be interpreted to include the creation of a government branches to OVERSEE the implementation of those laws - the IRS and the Fed Reserve.

The federal Reserve ISN'T a branch of government.

[edit on 5-10-2007 by C0le]

[edit on 5-10-2007 by C0le]

reply to post by Nitehawke


So because it doesn't say "except" labor, we're just supposed to assume that they mean labor? Laws aren't based on assumptions. They're laid out completely with complete detail to avoid loopholes.

NOWHERE does it say labor can be taxed. NOWHERE is there a law that says such a thing.

The Federal Reserve is not a government branch. As long as you're telling us to read the Constitution, I direct you to do a little research.

Where would states get their money? State income tax and federal income tax are two different things. State income taxes, although I haven't looked in to them, could very well be legal. Some states do not even have a state income tax, so the state income tax stands as credible in my book, since it is considered "optional" depending on the state.

The federal income tax is NOT legal. It is NOT defined in the Constitution. There is NO law saying we have to pay a federal income tax. And again, the Federal Reserve is NOT a government branch. It is a private central bank. Privately owned, privately managed.

The states pay for everything. The states pay for the education. The states pay for the construction. The gas tax pays for the road repairs. The state pays for the many state run services.

The government pays for the wars. They pay for the CIA sponsored overseas coups. They pay for the occupations and stealing of resources from other nations.

They could easily get money from doing this crazy thing called trading with other nations. I know that's a totally wacky idea and involves actually getting along with nations, but trust me, it would work.

They could more than pay for their expenses. They already do. Our income taxes merely cover the interest on their mass illegal spending. They pull out loans from China for the rest.

Please go do some research before you register to come in here slinging around your speculative opinions as truth.

reply to post by C0le


See, now THIS is the kind of stuff that irritates the hell out of me about the government - and I don't give a damn which party is running it because one is as bad as the other. If the people could get a tighter grip on the money our government is spending, THAT would be an accomplishment.

But with regard to taxes, they are in place and they will be collected because otherwise the country falls, simple as that. Those who don't pay will be prosecuted - until a better system (better for the people AND the country as a whole) is forced on those resposible.

Best way to make Congress overhaul the tax laws? Make all "public servants" subject to ALL the same taxes as everyone else and rip away that "golden parachute" of theirs. This COULD be done I believe. How many signatures does it take to get such a proposition put to public vote? Would YOU sign such a petition? I know I would. With the internet, do you think it would be possible to get a few dozen people in every state to put petitions out to be signed so that such a proposition could be put on every ballot in the country in 2008 when most of the voting public is likely to make the effort to go to the polls?

Hit the Congress and Senate where it would be most likely to get their attention - their PERSONAL finances. Once you've got their attention, well, then you've got a position you can bargain from!

reply to post by C0le



What about in Delaware?

Originally posted by FalseParadigm
reply to post by C0le

 

What about in Delaware?

What part of my post are ya replying to, and what do you mean?


[edit on 5-10-2007 by C0le]

reply to post by Nitehawke


It's not taxes that are the problem. It's only the tax on labor that's the problem. That's the illegal one.

I don't mind paying other taxes at all. I realize taxes are vital to an economy, and as long as my government is going to serve and protect my interests, I'll pay.

But I'm not going to pay an illegal labor tax. That's my damn money. I worked for that. If they're selling me something - fine. They worked for that, so they can tax their product. But they can't tax your damn labor. That's ridiculous.

We hire them to represent us in the international community and do our international business for us. We pay for the services. In return, we expect our voices to be heard and our interests to be protected.

The government shouldn't be allowed to tax your work and turn around and use that money to screw you over and not suit your interests. That's complete BS and it needs to stop.

[edit on 10/5/07 by NovusOrdoMundi]

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


Exactly, no sense in me even putting my 2 cents in, you pretty much summed it up.

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


Federal grants for research
Federal clean up and assistance after disasters (albeit totally f---d up because it's handled by morons)
Federal parks maintainence (and let's not forget forest fire management)
Upkeep of federal buildings and monuments
Federal funds for education (and yes, the fed DOES pay some money to public schools)
Medicare
Medicaid
AFDC
Subsidized housing
and then throw in the employees of all the government branches meant to keep us safe like the USDA, OSHA, etc, etc.

do you honestly believe that trade with other countries would cover it all? And I repeat, what would you have Congress tax if not income? Or do you really believe that if you were ABLE to force the government to give up the income tax that they would just say "well, it was good while it lasted, guess we'll just have to do without all that money from now on"? My bet is, they'd find something WORSE.

It's government of the people, etc, so the people had damned well better find a way to work together - as the parties within the government have never been able to do - if we want a better system. I'm saying "Show me a better system and I will get behind you on it." Rather than convincing me, you are essentially telling me to shut up.

And this, my friend, is why you are so few.

I highly recommend everyone to please watch these videos, there are 7 of them all about 1 hour each, watch 1 a night if watching em all at the same time isn't possible. Once ya watch them, verify all thats in them on your own if you still question the subjects, but watch them, it will answer just about any questions you have.
If your serious about learning and understanding this stuff, please watch them.
Part 1

Google Video Link

Part 2

Google Video Link

Part 3

Google Video Link

Part 4

Google Video Link

Part 5

Google Video Link

Part 6

Google Video Link

Part 7

Google Video Link

[edit on 5-10-2007 by C0le]

[edit on 5-10-2007 by C0le]

reply to post by C0le


Taxes.. I thought I quoted. I know that Delaware doesn't have sales taxes, but as far as other taxes, who knows.. certainly not I.
I just find the concept of allodial title fascinating. And it is certainly my "learned something new today".

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


"We hire them to represent us in the international community and do our international business for us. We pay for the services. In return, we expect our voices to be heard and our interests to be protected. "

"Hire" is the operative word here and we pay for the services with taxes. Since the federal gov't doesn't produce any physical product to sell to the public, they could as easily say they are taxing our labor to pay for theirs - not individually but as a group - and that this is the "product" they are selling. You pay for legal advice, you pay for financial advice, medical advice, etc, all things for which you do not necessarily get a concrete "product" for. By pointing this out, the government could tax you and call it a bill for service rendered. Would that be better? No, it would be exactly the same with different wording.

One of the other problems is that we have allowed them to infiltrate our lives to such an extent that their primary function is no longer to represent us in the international community but rather to be a nanny to all of us idiots who don't even know enough to keep away from trans fats!

The deeper into our lives we allow them, the more we let them control and interfere, the worse they will become. The first step toward taxing a thing is to restrict your ability to use it.

How many things, really, are you willing to pay taxes on (or higher taxes) to make up the difference if the federal income tax is abolished? Because you KNOW they will NOT give up that money, they're just going to take it from you in some other form.

reply to post by FalseParadigm


New Hampshire has no sales tax, no income tax. There's tax on prepared food and the property taxes are high (I pay just over $2000 a year on a house valued at a whopping $39,000).

They will get their pound of flesh one way or another.