Element 115 question

Originally posted by DogHead
But watch out for the Element 115.

Hi DogHead, I think you are absolute right.
In my "Non Scientist" opinon, its from now more a matter of time don’t you think?

But as scientists wait for confirmation on elements 115 and 113, the data presented by the Dubna and Livermore groups appear solid, said Dr. Sigurd Hofmann, a nuclear physicist at the Institute for Heavy Ion Research in Darmstadt, the laboratory where Darmstadtium was found.

"These Dubna data look quite convincing," Dr. Hofmann said. "And I'm sure with some more experiments, it will finally be accepted."

Source; www.radiochemistry.org...

Originally posted by pippadee
Nikola Tesla ( now there was a real scientist ) had a blueprint for a FREE ENERGY machine.

You also have to take into account, that many people abuse names of scientists and pseudo scientific terms in order to pretend they're on to something and sell you books, so you can find out what.

Not everything some new-agey book claims, is true and there are still many snake oil salesmen around. Actually more than ever before.

The more complicated science becomes, the easyer it becomes to abuse it to confuse people into believing some random bull# might be true.

reply to post by deezee

Originally posted by deezee

Originally posted by pippadee
Nikola Tesla ( now there was a real scientist ) had a blueprint for a FREE ENERGY machine.

The more complicated science becomes, the easyer it becomes to abuse it to confuse people into believing some random bull# might be true.

Hi deezee, what is your opinion about this info?
Do you think it is random bull# to?

Strategic Overview
Introduction

Research shows that over the past 75 years a number of significant breakthroughs in energy generation and propulsion have occurred that have been systematically suppressed. Since the time of Tesla, T. Townsend Brown and others in the early and mid-twentieth century we have had the technological ability to replace fossil fuel, internal combustion and nuclear power generating systems with advanced non-polluting electromagnetic and electro-gravitic systems. The open literature is replete with well-documented technologies that have surfaced, only to later be illegally seized or suppressed through systematic abuses of the national security state, large corporate and financial interests or other shadowy concerns.

Source; www.aero2012.com...

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Hi deezee, what is your opinion about this info?
Do you think it is random bull# to?

I think you misunderstood me.

I am wery open to new ideas. I sincerely hope we one day discover new and exotic power sources and improoved scientific theories that allow us to build and use them.

It's just that i've seen so many people lying just to sell books and using pseudo science, to confuse the reader into believing, that i am now much more carefull with what i believe.

I an not calling bull# to everything. My position is just, that people who lie and make stuff up, in order to make money off of gullible people, create irreparable damage to the entire field of research, by making real scientists believe it is all just nonsense and nothing more.

Many people, who might otherwise at least consider the possibility, that some of it is true, simply turn away and dismiss it all completelly.


I work with electronics, and many years ago i was very interested in this subject. I researched it, hoping to find something real, only to get very dissapointed in the end.

Still, whenever someone shows me something that might oppose the known laws and allow us to learn something new, i always consider the possibility that it might be real, and analyze it carefully, before coming to a conclusion.

I honestly believe, this is the only way, to ever get close to truth, no matter how often it results in dissapointment.

But i think you will agree, when i say it would all be so much easyer, if only people would stop making up crap. Maybe then, the truth would be easyer to find.

It's just that right now it's worse than looking for a needle in a haystack.


So all i wanted to suggest in my previous post was, to be more carefull, what you believe.

I will read the link you provided and if you're interested, share my oppinion on it.

[edit on 15/1/08 by deezee]

Originally posted by deezee
I will read the link you provided and if you're interested, share my oppinion on it.

Thanks for your answer, and I am really interested in your opinion, so I am looking forward to that.

reply to post by spacevisitor


Heck, the 113 and 115 have being synthesized in the lab alright, nobody disputed that. The total quantity produced was a few nuclei and they promptly decayed to something more stable. You can dig up details if you want.

But no, you can't have a brick of 115 in your basement and no, you won't be able to produce antimatter with it

reply to post by buddhasystem

Originally posted by buddhasystem
But no, you can't have a brick of 115 in your basement and no, you won't be able to produce antimatter with it

I understand very well that those peaces or “bricks” as you call it, cannot be produced so far by our Earthly mainstream scientists.
But even that is probably a matter of time now, don’t you think?
What I see as an absolute possibility, and you definitely cannot, is that those peaces of element 115 of where Bob Lazar and John Lear speaks about, are of Extraterrestrial origin.
You can’t role that possibility out, especially when you look to the mountain of available evidence of an Extraterrestrial reality.
And therefore, it can be absolute possible that they are in a way even capable to create antimatter with it.
Because when they are capable to come here from wherever, then that’s looks very logic to me.
But I think, that idea is for you not a “brick” but a “bridge” to far.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
I understand very well that those peaces or “bricks” as you call it, cannot be produced so far by our Earthly mainstream scientists.
But even that is probably a matter of time now, don’t you think?

I totally don't. You know why? Because our current understanding of nuclear physics, based on the available data and theories based on these data, does not indicate such possibility. Any claim that our understanding will somehow change in a few years, decades or millenia, specifically in such a way that will allow us to create a "stable version" of element 115, is just that -- an unsubstantiated claim. I could claim that in 300 years from now, dinosaurs will roam Earth once again. While entertaining, such proposition will not, and should not be credited with much substance.

What I see as an absolute possibility, and you definitely cannot, is that those peaces of element 115 of where Bob Lazar and John Lear speaks about, are of Extraterrestrial origin.

The keyword in your sentence is "speaks about". Not demonstrates, proves or delivers. Speaks. I can speak of channeling Jesus from the Pleiades. Talk is cheap.

You can’t role that possibility out, especially when you look to the mountain of available evidence of an Extraterrestrial reality.

I don't see that mountain, I am sorry. But even if there was a more or less palatable evidence that there is extraterrestrial activity on Earth, that's not enough to justify the specific claim related to the 115, don't you think? Have it occured to you that all that 115 story is lies and the real ETs are using something very different?

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Thanks for your answer, and I am really interested in your opinion, so I am looking forward to that.

I'm glad that i was able to clarify my standpoint.

I read through the link you posted. I expected to find some of the usual claims, but instead found something that seems to be a noble pursuit, in my oppinion.

Some of the things they seem to consider supporting, unfortunatelly fall under imaginary science. Still, their proposal is formed in a way, that should weed out all the garbage and only allow real and viable ideas and technologies to pass.

If you read through it carefully, you will notice, that even tho they seem to be "believers", they are well aware of the fact that most (if not all) of this field is filled with charlatans and snake oil salesmen. Their criteria for what is going to be accepted are very strict for this very reason.

If they should eventually come up with something, it might just be the real deal.

I honestly hope it doesn't all end in even more dissapointment.

But untill someone can come up with a well founded theory, that explains how the law of the conservation of energy can be "circumvented", i won't hold my breath.

[edit on 15/1/08 by deezee]

Originally posted by buddhasystem
The keyword in your sentence is "speaks about". Not demonstrates, proves or delivers.

Well, maybe this will explain it a bit to you how it works in reality, it’s a small part of the whole document.

Source; www.disclosureproject.com...

3.6 TESTIMONY THAT EXPLAINS THE SECRECY
Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin: Army National Guard Reserves
"But what happened was that Eisenhower got sold out. Without him knowing it, he lost control of what was going on with the entire UFO situation. He realized that the phenomenon or whatever it was that we were faced with was not going to be in the best hands. As far as I can remember, that was the expression that was used, "It is not going to be in the best hands." That was a real concern. And so it has turned out to be…

"It had been discussed with me on numerous occasions what could happen to me militarily if I discussed this. I would say that the government has done as good a job enforcing secrecy through the installation of abject fear as they have done with anything within the memory of modern man. I really believe they have done a job.

"One older officer discussed with me what possibly could happen if there was a revelation. He was talking about being erased and I said, ‘Man, what do you mean erased?’ And, he said, ‘Yes, you will be erased-disappear." And I said, "How do you know all this?’ And he said, ‘I know. Those threats have been made and carried out. Those threats started way back in 1947. The Army Air Force was given absolute control over how to handle this. This being the biggest security situation that this country has ever dealt with and there have been some erasures…’

"I don’t care what kind of a person you are. I don’t care how strong or courageous you are. It would be a very fearful situation because from what Matt [this older officer] said, ‘They will go after not only you. They will go after your family.’ Those were his words. And, so I can only say that the reason that they have managed to keep it under wraps for so long is through fear. They are very selective about how they pull someone out to make an example of. And I know that that has been done."

Merle Shane McDow: US Navy Atlantic Command
"These two gentlemen began to question me about this event. They were being pretty rough about it, to be honest with you. I remember literally putting my hands up and saying, ‘Wait a minute fellows. I am on your side. Just a minute.’ Because they were not really nice. They were very intimidating and made it quite clear to the point that nothing that was seen, heard, or witnessed, that transpired was to leave this building. ‘You are not to say a word about it to your co-workers. And off base, you just forget everything that you may have seen or heard concerning this. It didn’t happen…’"

Lt. Col. Charles Brown: US Air Force (Retired)
"It is sort of strange but we send people to prison, we send people to their death because of eyewitness accounts of crimes. Our legal system is based on that to a large degree. Yet in my following of unusual aerial phenomena for the past 50 years, there seems to be some reason to discredit very viable and very reputable witnesses when they say something is unidentified…
"I do know that there are agencies of our Government that can manipulate data. And you can create or recreate [whatever you want]. Craft, intelligently operated craft, have basically violated our laws of physics on this planet. And they have done that for a long time. The fact that the Government at this point -- I know we have been investigating since 1947 -- has not come up with an answer, to me indicates that there is something seriously wrong. Are we this incompetent in science? I don’t think so. Are we this incompetent in intelligence? I know we are not this incompetent in intelligence.

"Dr. B":
"I know that some people I worked with did disappear on certain programs and were never heard from again. They just disappeared. There has been evidence of that all through my work. You know, that people go out on projects [and disappear]. But [to protect myself from this] I wouldn’t go any further on a project because I could see something strange coming. So, a lot of people have disappeared you know, that are higher up."

Lance Corporal Jonathan Weygandt: US Marine Corps
"‘You weren’t supposed to be there.’ ‘You are not supposed to see this.’ ‘You are going to be dangerous if we let you go.’ I thought that they were going to kill me, really…
"They had a Lieutenant Colonel from the Air Force and he did not identify himself. And he told me, ‘If we just took you out in the jungle, they would never find you out there.’ I didn’t want to test him to see if he would really do that so I just said, ‘Yeah.’ And, he said, ‘You have got to sign these papers. You never saw this.’ I ‘don’t exist’ and ‘this situation never happened.’ And if you tell anybody, you will just come up missing…
"They are yelling at me and hollering and cursing. ‘You didn’t see anything. We will do you and your whole goddamn family.’

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I don't see that mountain, I am sorry.

I am really sorry for you, because you claim to be a nuclear scientist by profession, so you must be very intelligent.
And therefore I don’t understand, even believe that you are not aware of the available ET evidence.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
But even if there was a more or less palatable evidence that there is extraterrestrial activity on Earth, that's not enough to justify the specific claim related to the 115, don't you think?

Its not if and no, I don’t think that at all.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Have it occured to you that all that 115 story is lies and the real ETs are using something very different?

First, even you cannot know or have 100% proof that the 115 story is no more then lie, it is just what you assuming, nothing more.
Of course I am very aware of the fact that different Extraterrestrial civilisations using depending of their technical level of course different systems to power their crafts.
We do it ourselves for decennia, so nothing new about that.

Hey, Buddha,

Is your field inclusive of nuclear chemistry as well as physics? I'm a layman, armchair scientist if you will, so forgive dumb questions. I was just thinking if using the diamond as an analogy is worthwhile?

I mean, look at a lump of coal and a diamond side by side...obviously, an average person would say, impossible to be the same stuff!

Is there any possible way that 115 could be created naturally in another star system? Could there exist sufficient pressure somewhere to force the stuff together hard enough to throw off electrons or whatever to produce a stable element?

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts


Hey come on man, lay off.

We all have to blink now and then, right?

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Well, maybe this will explain it a bit to you how it works in reality, it’s a small part of the whole document.

You know, I don't buy that story how the evil govt will "disappear" anyone who come forth with a proven and verifiable claim. In our day and age, you can get a massive media involvement form the get go, which effectively precludes any residual secrecy. Information and artifacts can be preserved.

I am really sorry for you, because you claim to be a nuclear scientist by profession, so you must be very intelligent.

Oh, there is no need to feel sorry for me, thank you. I am just fine. By the way, I moved to the field of scientific computing a few years ago, so while my background is indeed in nuclear physics, I'm not a nuclear scientist now, to be precise.

First, even you cannot know or have 100% proof that the 115 story is no more then lie, it is just what you assuming, nothing more.

It's all a matter of probabilities. John Lear may well be an android from the Galaxy, sent here to Earth to study humans for the benefit of supreme being Zmorrg, who is actually a giant pulsating brain inside a neutron star located in Zeta Reticuli. You don't know that, and you'll never have proof that he's not, don't you think? Because, you know, Zmorrg knows best.

I just find so many holes in the story surrounding the 115, as well as in Lazar's supposed expertise in physics, that in all likelihood, the whole thing is bunk. Just like the above Zmorrg-Lear connection.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
First, even you cannot know or have 100% proof that the 115 story is no more then lie, it is just what you assuming, nothing more.

Lazar's 115 story being a lie is speculation, yes, but a well founded one. All things considered, it is MUCH more likely to be a lie, rather than true.

Let's look at the facts for a moment.

When Bob Lazar first made up the 115 story, the Periodic Table of elements was much shorter than it is now.

He was assuming, that 115 is far enough away from being discovered, that his story should remain plausible for a long time.

Now, that scientists actually created element 115 we know some actual facts about it.

One of them is, that it is a very unstable element, which can only exist for an extremely short time, before decaying into a more stable element.

So how can aliens store it and use it as fuel?


It would make much more sense, if they were creating it on the spot, when needed. And if they have a machine, that can create it on the spot, the same machine would probably be just as able to create the required antimatter directly.

So this already conflicts with Lazar's story about 115 being stored and used as fuel, never mind him having a piece.


But let's imagine the aliens have discovered a way of preventing 115 from decaying, so they can store it as fuel.

Again, this conflicts with Lazar's story about having a piece, unless the aliens gave him the machine that keeps it stable.

But let's focus on the aliens..

If they can somehow influence an element's natural properties and controll it's "behaviour" with some technology, that "changes the laws of physics", i would again think, the same technology could just as well be used to propell their craft directly, without first creating some unstable element.

But hey, i'm no physicist, nor am i an alien, so i'm just guessing and assuming things.

But if you compare my assumptions to Lazar's story, how do you decide which is more plausible?


Another thing i wanted to mention is, that Lazar's story shows all the common signs of the pseudo scientific term abuse.

[edit on 15/1/08 by deezee]

reply to post by deezee

Originally posted by deezee
Lazar's 115 story being a lie is speculation, yes, but a well founded one. All things considered, it is MUCH more likely to be a lie, rather than true.

As you said yourself, still more likely to be a lie, rather than true.
But that is stil assuming.

Originally posted by deezee
Let's look at the facts for a moment.
When Bob Lazar first made up the 115 story, the Periodic Table of elements was much shorter than it is now.
He was assuming, that 115 is far enough away from being discovered, that his story should remain plausible for a long time.

Look again what you are saying here, is it not just absolute amazing that he claims, actually dare to claim the existence of an element 115 that was unknown on a time when it was actually far away from being discovered.
Precisely that must ring a big bell.

Originally posted by deezee
One of them is, that it is a very unstable element, which can only exist for an extremely short time, before decaying into a more stable element.
So how can aliens store it and use it as fuel?

Well, for most scientist so far, it is absolute scientifically impossible that they has the ability to come here, and what is the reality, they are here.

Originally posted by deezee
It would make much more sense, if they were creating it on the spot, when needed. And if they have a machine, that can create it on the spot, the same machine would probably be just as able to create the required antimatter directly.
So this already conflicts with Lazar's story about 115 being stored and used as fuel, never mind him having a piece.

How can you say that if you hasn’t the slightest idea how these extremely advantaged systems works yourself?

Originally posted by deezee
But let's imagine the aliens have discovered a way of preventing 115 from decaying, so they can store it as fuel.
Again, this conflicts with Lazar's story about having a piece, unless the aliens gave him the machine that keeps it stable.

I really don’t have a clue about that.

Originally posted by deezee
But let's focus on the aliens..

If they can somehow influence an element's natural properties and controll it's "behaviour" with some technology, that "changes the laws of physics", i would again think, the same technology could just as well be used to propell their craft directly, without first creating some unstable element.

But hey, i'm no physicist, nor am i an alien, so i'm just guessing and assuming things.

No offence, but that’s exactly what you do, nothing more.

Originally posted by deezee
But if you compare my assumptions to Lazar's story, how do you decide which is more plausible?

Yours, no doubt about that.

Originally posted by deezee
Another thing i wanted to mention is, that Lazar's story shows all the common signs of the pseudo scientific term abuse.

Can you clear that a bit more to me?


[edit on 15/1/08 by spacevisitor]

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Look again what you are saying here, is it not just absolute amazing that he claims, actually dare to claim the existence of an element 115 that was unknown on a time when it was actually far away from being discovered.
Precisely that must ring a big bell.

Actually no. I have to dissapoint you. If you look into the periodic table of elements and learn what these numbers mean, you won't be that impressed by this particular guess anymore.

The number of an element only represents the number of protons in it's nucleus.

Scientists can create a next element, "simply" by adding a proton to the previous one. They are constantly doing this, so it was inevitable, they would eventually get to 115. Currently they are speculating how far they can actually get. Of course many of these elements don't "live" very long, due to their inherent instability.

And since we know 115 is one of these very unstable elements, it actually shows Bob Lazar is very unlikely to have it.

And even if we forget all this, i find it very hard to believe, he could smuggle some top secret government stuff out of Area 51.


People, who desperatelly cling to such stories for confirmation of their beliefs, often don't actually believe, but just want to.
And people who try to convince others of their beliefs, are often only trying to convince themselves.

And i think you would agree with me, when i say, that spreading wild speculations and bizzare guesses on what is going on, only makes it harder for us to see the real truth.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Well, for most scientist so far, it is absolute scientifically impossible that they has the ability to come here, and what is the reality, they are here.

I'm sorry, but that is just another speculation or rather belief..

I think it's very probable life exists elswhere in the universe.
If we are being visited is another matter entirelly. Currently we don't understand how it could even be possible, which is why scientists don't believe it, but i do hope, some day we find a way.

I don't know what you consider evidence of ET visitation. There are different views on this. But i have a good reason not to trust stories from "abductees", channelers and people who sell books to new agers.

At the same time, i've seen some videos from NASA, that seem to show interesting stuff, and i almost want to believe it's real. But again, i can not say for sure.

Originally posted by spacevisitor

But hey, i'm no physicist, nor am i an alien, so i'm just guessing and assuming things.

No offence, but that’s exactly what you do, nothing more.

None taken, that was my point. I was just trying to show you how much speculation is worth.

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Another thing i wanted to mention is, that Lazar's story shows all the common signs of the pseudo scientific term abuse.

Can you clear that a bit more to me?

I will try to find examples and post them.


BTW: Just to clarify.. I'm not trying to convince you we are not being visited by aliens. I'm just saying that there is no ABSOLUTE proof either way.

Because of that, i always try to consider all possibilities and assign them probabilities as best i can, without actually believing anything about such subjects, untill i see real proof or at least some good evidence.

But i am curious about it or i wouldn't be here.

Also, i don't have a problem with anyones beliefs, unless they try to push them on others, or claim their beliefs are the absolute truth.

From what i can tell, you are also willing, to at least consider other people's points of view and discuss them and for that i respect you, no matter what your beliefs are.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
By the way, I moved to the field of scientific computing a few years ago, so while my background is indeed in nuclear physics, I'm not a nuclear scientist now, to be precise.

So you're a few years out of date with current research into nuclear physics by other mainstream scientists? I guess I can believe that, just as I have to believe that you do have a PhD. I'll take it on 'faith'.

Have you ever wondered what has been discovered, since you left the field? Would you be included 'in the loop' on recent discoveries?

It's all a matter of probabilities. John Lear may well be an android from the Galaxy, sent here to Earth to study humans for the benefit of supreme being Zmorrg, who is actually a giant pulsating brain inside a neutron star located in Zeta Reticuli. You don't know that, and you'll never have proof that he's not, don't you think? Because, you know, Zmorrg knows best.

Again, your useless analogy serves no purpose to help your argument about the synthesis of Element 115. It's completely bunk and nothing but a waste of server space.

Originally posted by tezzajw
So you're a few years out of date with current research into nuclear physics by other mainstream scientists?

Not really. I've been a participant of a large experiment in 2007 and am quite abreast with latest developments. At any rate, basic claims about the alleged 115 can be analyzed with knowledged that is a few years old. My understanding of nuclear instrumentation is still there. And I can tell you that even measurement of the density, which even ancient Greeks could do, would reveal a great deal. Do you follow this? If somebody gave you a piece of 115, would you be able to do that? What would you do to measure the spectrum of alpha particles emitted from the alleged 115? I'm all ears.

I guess I can believe that, just as I have to believe that you do have a PhD. I'll take it on 'faith'.

You don't have to believe it, tezz.

Have you ever wondered what has been discovered, since you left the field? Would you be included 'in the loop' on recent discoveries?

Like I said, I'm involved with the field... My name is on the list of authors on a few papers contaning the recent discoveries. So there.

Again, your useless analogy serves no purpose to help your argument about the synthesis of Element 115. It's completely bunk and nothing but a waste of server space.

I think your ineptitude in using analogy is one of the many reasons (and I hope the most serious) that you didn't choose a career in science. Analogies, you see, is one of the most powerful tools in what you so condescendingly call "mainstream science". We have standing waves in strings, membranes and atoms. We even have energy levels in elementary particles that can be described by classical mechanics to a certain approximation (e.g. heavy quarkonia). The whole field of applying differential equations to real life problems are full of analogies. In biology, the predator-prey system is described by the Lotka-Volterra equation, which in certain approximation is analogous to an oscillator. Analogies are endless... An mine are fine, thank you.

But you don't know any of it... and more.

You feeble attempts to discredit my persona are becoming more and more desperate, tezz. By the way, reportedly, Bob Lazar was doing service work in a brothel that he partially owned, for a period of time. If you stick with your logic, you'll have to admit that since this area of business is so vastly different from the rarified field of nuclear physics, he is completely disqualified from any judgement on element 115. I actually agree with that.


[edit on 15-1-2008 by buddhasystem]