It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Proof that Christianity's a false religion
page: 2share:
Arpgme:
He was very popular with those He taught and healed, at least those that followed Him. However.....He was certainly despised and forsaken by those that sought and killed Him. He was acquainted with disease as He was able to heal. The prophecy was fulfilled.
He lives forever and we are all His children.
He is of the line of David, He will reign over a redeemed world of universal peace and knowledge.....that happens at the end of this age when He returns. The passage in Isaiah isn't at all controversial, nor is it the only corroboration.
If your translation is correct I agree that it is subtle, very subtle. The meaning is not changed. Whether He suffered for our sins or as a result of our sins.....He suffered in our place.
1John 2:2And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
The story of the Exodus is also a shadow of what will be. If we follow God He will protect and lead us through tribulation and we will cross to the promised land. The big "If" connected to that is that we may not follow any other god. Satan will come to earth in the disguise of Christ. We must know this and not follow him. That is what Father is teaching in Ex.32:32-33.
The Deu. scripture is simply teaching we must account for our own sins. I can't take the sin of my child and pay for it. Christ took the sins of all of His children, IF they believe in Him.
The Ezekiel scripture is again telling us that we pay for our own sins. When Christ came to earth He took those sins upon Himself but we must repent and believe in Him for that salvation.
Prov.15:8 is about the sacrifice of the wicked - not that of Christ
Is.1:11-16 God is speaking to those as the "rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah"
Amos 5:22-24 is about those trying to sacrifice and it is a day late and a dollar short..........Too late to trust in Him.
Micah, again this is about those He is displeased with and no sacrifice would be accepted.
Because those were unacceptable doesn't mean that the sacrifices of righteous people who truly repented wouldn't be acceptable.
I'm not even going to those scriptures. You appear to be picking and choosing verses and they are being completely taken out of context as far as applying to Christ dying for our sins.
That is true, there is only One and That One is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
............Whirlwind
Isaiah tells us that the Servant will be universally despised and rejected
"He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not." - Isaiah 53:3
While this has certainly been true for the Jewish people, the Christian Bible describes Jesus as immensely popular. (Luke 2:52, 4:14-15, Mark 3:8-9, etc.).
He was very popular with those He taught and healed, at least those that followed Him. However.....He was certainly despised and forsaken by those that sought and killed Him. He was acquainted with disease as He was able to heal. The prophecy was fulfilled.
If Jesus was The Messiah, he would have lived long and had children. Isaiah 53:10
He lives forever and we are all His children.
The missionary’s greatest difficulty is posed by Isaiah’s declaration that the suffering Servant is actually a group of people, and not an individual
"for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due."-Isaiah 53:8
We must understand that missionaries employ Isaiah 53 not only to validate their claim that Jesus is the Messiah.
They rely on this passage to delineate the essential mission of the Messiah:
to die as a vicarious sacrifice in order to atone for the sins of the world.
This idea has three critical flaws.
1 . The traditional Jewish concept of the Messiah as the Davidic king who will reign over a redeemed world of universal peace and universal knowledge of G-d is substantiated by dozens of passages throughout the Bible. The Christian messianic concept hangs entirely upon our controversial passage in Isaiah, and has no external corroboration.
He is of the line of David, He will reign over a redeemed world of universal peace and knowledge.....that happens at the end of this age when He returns. The passage in Isaiah isn't at all controversial, nor is it the only corroboration.
2. The Christian messianic notion is based upon a subtle mistranslation. Isaiah 53:5 does not say, "He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities", which could convey a vicarious suffering. Rather, the text properly translated reads, "He was wounded from our transgressions, crushed from our iniquities." This certainly does not convey that the Servant suffered to atone for the sins of others, but rather that the Servant suffered as a result of the sinfulness of others. This distinction is crucial!
If your translation is correct I agree that it is subtle, very subtle. The meaning is not changed. Whether He suffered for our sins or as a result of our sins.....He suffered in our place.
1John 2:2And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
3. Christian belief maintains that not only does the Messiah come to atone for sin, but also, the only way for humans to atone for sin is through belief in the Messiah’s vicarious sacrifice on their behalf. This idea directly contradicts Biblical teaching on many fronts. Here are just some of them:
The Bible rejects the concept of an innocent person dying in place of a guilty one
(Exodus 32:32-33, Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:1-4)
The story of the Exodus is also a shadow of what will be. If we follow God He will protect and lead us through tribulation and we will cross to the promised land. The big "If" connected to that is that we may not follow any other god. Satan will come to earth in the disguise of Christ. We must know this and not follow him. That is what Father is teaching in Ex.32:32-33.
The Deu. scripture is simply teaching we must account for our own sins. I can't take the sin of my child and pay for it. Christ took the sins of all of His children, IF they believe in Him.
The Ezekiel scripture is again telling us that we pay for our own sins. When Christ came to earth He took those sins upon Himself but we must repent and believe in Him for that salvation.
Biblical sacrifices, in and of themselves, are never sufficient to atone for our sins
(Proverbs 15:8, Isaiah 1:11-16, Amos 5:22-24, Micah 6:6-8)
Prov.15:8 is about the sacrifice of the wicked - not that of Christ
Is.1:11-16 God is speaking to those as the "rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah"
Amos 5:22-24 is about those trying to sacrifice and it is a day late and a dollar short..........Too late to trust in Him.
Micah, again this is about those He is displeased with and no sacrifice would be accepted.
Because those were unacceptable doesn't mean that the sacrifices of righteous people who truly repented wouldn't be acceptable.
The Bible strongly prohibits human sacrifice
(Genesis 22:10-13, Leviticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 18:10)
Since G-d promises forgiveness to all who sincerely repent of their sins and return to Him, there is no need for the Messiah to atone for us (II Chronicles 7:14, Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33, Jeremiah 36:3, Isaiah 55:6-7, Jonah 3:6-10, Daniel 4:27, Hoseah 14:1-3, Proverbs 16:6)
I'm not even going to those scriptures. You appear to be picking and choosing verses and they are being completely taken out of context as far as applying to Christ dying for our sins.
Not only does Isaiah 53 never mention the need to believe in the suffering of G-d’s Servant, but there isn’t even one reference in the entire Bible to believing in the Messiah as one’s personal saviour from sin.
THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOUR AND THAT IS GOD!
"I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other Savior." - Isaiah 43:11
That is true, there is only One and That One is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
............Whirlwind
reply to post by Masonic Light
Every day should be for the worship of the Almighty but the Sabbath was and is on what is called by us Saturday. It is the 7th day, as designated by God. That was the day His Word was read. Why do you believe the apostles changed it?
In order to be certain in my answer to you I asked a friend about your question and the following is his answer:
The Col. 2:16 verse needs further clarification. We must start at vs. 8 to pick up the subject of that scripture:
Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ That is the subject....freedom from HUMAN traditions.
14.Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
#1378 Ordinance" dogma, a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical) decree, ordinance.
Paul is speaking about man-made law, Talmudic law, not God's law. This is the same law Our Saviour speaks of in Mark 7:6-9.
Christ's sacrifice did away with animal sacrifice, priestly duties and other physical requirements: Heb.7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Many new Christians who had formerly been Jews continued to be burdened by their former beliefs. The Temple even had a literal wall separating Jews from gentiles and gentiles dare not pass through it. It was difficult for some to forget these past "Ordinances" and Peter himself had been affected by it: (Gal.2:11-12)
On the other hand gentiles had pagan influence in their background with it's restraits and regulations also and Paul, here...is telling these folks not to be troubled if anyone criticizes you for observing a Feast Day, a Sabbath or any dietary requirement taught by Paul. He is saying...."Don't let people judge you for doing these things!"
(Ephesians 2:15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in "ordinances" (Dogma); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. Many people believe these verses and passages are referring to God's Laws being done away with. Nothing could be further from the truth.
(Rev.14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(Deu.4:40) Thou shalt keep therefore his statues, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.
I will add to what he said in reference to the food laws; our bodies are as they were then. If the unclean foods would hurt us then that would not have changed. Scavengers are not to be consumed.
I don't agree. Read what He tells us He feels are abominations, even being committed in the "Lord's house".
Ezekiel 8:9 And He said unto me, "Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here."
13.He said also unto me, "Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14........behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz
16......five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17.....Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? For they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke Me to anger: and lo, they put the branch to their nose.
18.Therefore will I also deal in fury; Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them"
So....this is how pagan Sun worship, weeping for Tammuz which is all part of the easter service crept into religion and this was long before Christ and the apostles were born. Pagan worship such as sun worship, (Sunday) is an abomination to God.
He gave us the 7th day, He gave us the Feast Days, etc. and we are follow His wishes. At least, that is what I believe His Word tells us.
............Whirlwind
Originally posted by whirlwind
Christ did become our Sabbath, our Passover, our rest but we should continue to worship on the correct day. The "eighth day" is a man made tradition - it is not of God.
In his Epistle to the Colossians, the Apostle Paul wrote:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
Therefore, there does not seem to be a technically "correct" day, as every day is appropriate to worship the Almighty, and give thanks to Him for our many blessings. However, the Acts of Apostles states that on the Jewish Sabbath, the Apostles taught in the synagogues, while they gathered together amongst themselves to worship on the first day of the week. Therefore, the tradition of the Christian community to gather on Sunday is an original one, handed down by the first Apostles.
Every day should be for the worship of the Almighty but the Sabbath was and is on what is called by us Saturday. It is the 7th day, as designated by God. That was the day His Word was read. Why do you believe the apostles changed it?
In order to be certain in my answer to you I asked a friend about your question and the following is his answer:
The Col. 2:16 verse needs further clarification. We must start at vs. 8 to pick up the subject of that scripture:
Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ That is the subject....freedom from HUMAN traditions.
14.Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
#1378 Ordinance" dogma, a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical) decree, ordinance.
Paul is speaking about man-made law, Talmudic law, not God's law. This is the same law Our Saviour speaks of in Mark 7:6-9.
Christ's sacrifice did away with animal sacrifice, priestly duties and other physical requirements: Heb.7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Many new Christians who had formerly been Jews continued to be burdened by their former beliefs. The Temple even had a literal wall separating Jews from gentiles and gentiles dare not pass through it. It was difficult for some to forget these past "Ordinances" and Peter himself had been affected by it: (Gal.2:11-12)
On the other hand gentiles had pagan influence in their background with it's restraits and regulations also and Paul, here...is telling these folks not to be troubled if anyone criticizes you for observing a Feast Day, a Sabbath or any dietary requirement taught by Paul. He is saying...."Don't let people judge you for doing these things!"
(Ephesians 2:15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in "ordinances" (Dogma); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. Many people believe these verses and passages are referring to God's Laws being done away with. Nothing could be further from the truth.
(Rev.14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(Deu.4:40) Thou shalt keep therefore his statues, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.
I will add to what he said in reference to the food laws; our bodies are as they were then. If the unclean foods would hurt us then that would not have changed. Scavengers are not to be consumed.
I will also mention here that I am not an "orthodox" Christian, i.e., one coming from the Roman Catholic-Eastern Orthodox-Protestant line of succession. I am a Gnostic Christian, which I contend to be primitive Christianity in its purity. Nevertheless, even as a proud heretic, I must agree with the "orthodox" on the Sunday tradition, although according to Paul, it does not seem to be very important.
I don't agree. Read what He tells us He feels are abominations, even being committed in the "Lord's house".
Ezekiel 8:9 And He said unto me, "Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here."
13.He said also unto me, "Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14........behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz
16......five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17.....Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? For they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke Me to anger: and lo, they put the branch to their nose.
18.Therefore will I also deal in fury; Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them"
So....this is how pagan Sun worship, weeping for Tammuz which is all part of the easter service crept into religion and this was long before Christ and the apostles were born. Pagan worship such as sun worship, (Sunday) is an abomination to God.
He gave us the 7th day, He gave us the Feast Days, etc. and we are follow His wishes. At least, that is what I believe His Word tells us.
............Whirlwind
JESUS CAN NOT BE A GOD OR MESSIAH!
Numbers 23:19 says God is not a man! Exodus 3:14-15 says that GOD'S ETERNAL NAME IS YHVH or "I am who I am". So "Jesus" is not the name of God, nor does Jesus wear God's name which is one of the messianic prophecies that are suppose to be fulfilled. According to Isaiah 7:14, if Jesus was the messiah, his name would had been Immanuel! Also, he would be born of a "young woman" NOT a "virgin"!
If Jesus is God, what happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose like any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. By definition, not mystery, the everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: "For I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6). Did Jesus' flesh dwell in safety after his death? 1 Peter 3:18 states Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:44-45 claims Jesus was "raised a spiritual body," that is, he "became a life-giving spirit." No mention of the survival of the flesh is alluded to. In Acts 2:31, it is claimed Peter stated that following the alleged resurrection Jesus' body did not see decay. Paul is alleged to have also made this claim (Acts 13:34-37). But, unless Jesus' body never underwent "decay" during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo "decay" then he was not truly human. Mark's Jesus, after listing all the tribulations that the world must endure before he returns a second time (Mark 13:3-29, Matthew 24:3-33) says: "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Mark 13:30, Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32). Jesus was directing this remark specifically to his contemporary generation and not to some unknown future generation. Jesus, addressing his disciples "privately" (Mark 13:3, Matthew 24:3) listed what was going to happen before his return. He then added, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you and you shall be hated of all nations for my names sake" (Matthew 24:9). Mark's version adds, "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" (Mark 13:13). Thus, it appears from this last remark that at least some of the disciples would survive and be present to witness the second coming and the end of time. There is no need to interpret the verse, "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" otherwise than that Jesus was speaking here of his contemporary generation. The expression "this generation" appears fourteen times in the Gospels and always applies to Jesus' contemporaries. That generation passed away without Jesus returning. Therefore, we are confronted by another unfulfilled promise by Jesus. Jesus did not return during the period he himself specifically designated. Some commentators are of the opinion that "this generation" means the generation alive when this prophecy comes to pass, which they believe has yet to occur. But, the text shows that Jesus was'nt speaking to an unspecified future generation; he was speaking to his disciples and directed this prophecy to them personally.
(Mark 3:19-21, 31), during the period when he was preaching, Jesus' relatives, his mother and his brothers, believed that he was mentally ill. "neither did his brothers believe in him" (John 7:5). It seems, Mary, forgot the visits of angels. Mary seems to have forgotten her own impregnation by the Holy Spirit! This is proof that Jesus had NO MIRACLES surrounded his birth.
Numbers 23:19 says God is not a man! Exodus 3:14-15 says that GOD'S ETERNAL NAME IS YHVH or "I am who I am". So "Jesus" is not the name of God, nor does Jesus wear God's name which is one of the messianic prophecies that are suppose to be fulfilled. According to Isaiah 7:14, if Jesus was the messiah, his name would had been Immanuel! Also, he would be born of a "young woman" NOT a "virgin"!
If Jesus is God, what happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose like any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. By definition, not mystery, the everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: "For I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6). Did Jesus' flesh dwell in safety after his death? 1 Peter 3:18 states Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:44-45 claims Jesus was "raised a spiritual body," that is, he "became a life-giving spirit." No mention of the survival of the flesh is alluded to. In Acts 2:31, it is claimed Peter stated that following the alleged resurrection Jesus' body did not see decay. Paul is alleged to have also made this claim (Acts 13:34-37). But, unless Jesus' body never underwent "decay" during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo "decay" then he was not truly human. Mark's Jesus, after listing all the tribulations that the world must endure before he returns a second time (Mark 13:3-29, Matthew 24:3-33) says: "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Mark 13:30, Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32). Jesus was directing this remark specifically to his contemporary generation and not to some unknown future generation. Jesus, addressing his disciples "privately" (Mark 13:3, Matthew 24:3) listed what was going to happen before his return. He then added, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you and you shall be hated of all nations for my names sake" (Matthew 24:9). Mark's version adds, "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" (Mark 13:13). Thus, it appears from this last remark that at least some of the disciples would survive and be present to witness the second coming and the end of time. There is no need to interpret the verse, "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" otherwise than that Jesus was speaking here of his contemporary generation. The expression "this generation" appears fourteen times in the Gospels and always applies to Jesus' contemporaries. That generation passed away without Jesus returning. Therefore, we are confronted by another unfulfilled promise by Jesus. Jesus did not return during the period he himself specifically designated. Some commentators are of the opinion that "this generation" means the generation alive when this prophecy comes to pass, which they believe has yet to occur. But, the text shows that Jesus was'nt speaking to an unspecified future generation; he was speaking to his disciples and directed this prophecy to them personally.
(Mark 3:19-21, 31), during the period when he was preaching, Jesus' relatives, his mother and his brothers, believed that he was mentally ill. "neither did his brothers believe in him" (John 7:5). It seems, Mary, forgot the visits of angels. Mary seems to have forgotten her own impregnation by the Holy Spirit! This is proof that Jesus had NO MIRACLES surrounded his birth.
one should understand the Christian Doctrine of the trinity be for one
goes poking holes in what one thinks it is and does not know what it is
your post was full of opinions put forth is a distastefull manner
and when dealing with Christians one should know that if scripture is silent on a matter then we do not play the
what if game, it suffice it to simply answer ''I do not know''
you have no proof, just a mangling of Scripture in the context you want it to be in
half of your questions if not all would never have been posted if you had at least one iota of understanding of Christian Doctrine and scripture
I ain't saying you have to agree with it but at least know what you are talking about
anyway heres a verse that explains some of the trinity
this ought to confuse you good
John1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Trinity
God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God
Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.
Is there subordination in the Trinity?
There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence.
We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third.
The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16).
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26).
The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10).
The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26).
The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine.
[edit on 30-9-2007 by agoodshot]
goes poking holes in what one thinks it is and does not know what it is
your post was full of opinions put forth is a distastefull manner
and when dealing with Christians one should know that if scripture is silent on a matter then we do not play the
what if game, it suffice it to simply answer ''I do not know''
you have no proof, just a mangling of Scripture in the context you want it to be in
half of your questions if not all would never have been posted if you had at least one iota of understanding of Christian Doctrine and scripture
I ain't saying you have to agree with it but at least know what you are talking about
anyway heres a verse that explains some of the trinity
this ought to confuse you good
John1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Trinity
God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God
Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.
Is there subordination in the Trinity?
There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence.
We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third.
The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16).
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26).
The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10).
The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26).
The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine.
[edit on 30-9-2007 by agoodshot]
:
1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.
thats a lie--this is what it says
Isaiah 45
1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
Also, Christianity teaches that there are three gods (The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus) that are one. Does that sound like pure monotheism to you?
the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine
2) Jesus said "Think not that I have come to abolish the law(Torah) and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. " - Matthew 5
whats your point?
* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.
we are not jews
* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERNAL covenant
we are not jews
*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur
we are not jews , do muslims celebrate christmas?
*Christmas or Easter was never mentioned in the OLD or NEW Testament, and these holidays have some origins of the Pagans!
not all christians celebrate these holiday
* Also Christians does not eat kosher!
we are not Jews
Jesus lied! He did change those rules!
where?
3) Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!
yes it does,--- 2 Samuel 22:47
The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.
Psalm 3:8
Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah
Psalm 85:7
Shew us thy mercy, O LORD, and grant us thy salvation
and it never says there is a trinity but its still an essential christian doctrine
"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16
and they do, Jesus saves us from the second death as explained in scripture
also NOWHERE THE THE OLD TESTAMENT STATE THAT THE MESSIAH WILL HE A SECOND RETURN! And Christians claim Jesus will come back!
yes it does, if by your chopped up english you are refeing to the rapture
4) The Christian bible has been changed many times!
no it has not, its 95% textualy pure
Here is the history of The "Bible"
youtube.com...
youtube? you got to be kidding right?
5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!
no he fif not
"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14
"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12
he healed a man that made it holy
5) The Old Testament was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS!
prove it
6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).
again you fo not understand the trinity ---John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
7) Jesus's name has an origin of the devil!
bull
When you pray to J-Esus, you are really praying to the Devil by his name Esus. Esus is the pagan, Satanic god of the Celtic Druids.
ssay what? thats rubbish
The Torah / Tanakh has been written the same since it was given to the Jews by Moses! Also there was a witness of about 33,000 people who heard God speak saying "This is what I want you to follow"!
so what, times changed when Christ came
[edit on 30-9-2007 by agoodshot]
[edit on 30-9-2007 by agoodshot]
1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.
thats a lie--this is what it says
Isaiah 45
1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
Also, Christianity teaches that there are three gods (The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus) that are one. Does that sound like pure monotheism to you?
the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine
2) Jesus said "Think not that I have come to abolish the law(Torah) and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. " - Matthew 5
whats your point?
* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.
we are not jews
* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERNAL covenant
we are not jews
*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur
we are not jews , do muslims celebrate christmas?
*Christmas or Easter was never mentioned in the OLD or NEW Testament, and these holidays have some origins of the Pagans!
not all christians celebrate these holiday
* Also Christians does not eat kosher!
we are not Jews
Jesus lied! He did change those rules!
where?
3) Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!
yes it does,--- 2 Samuel 22:47
The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.
Psalm 3:8
Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah
Psalm 85:7
Shew us thy mercy, O LORD, and grant us thy salvation
and it never says there is a trinity but its still an essential christian doctrine
"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16
and they do, Jesus saves us from the second death as explained in scripture
also NOWHERE THE THE OLD TESTAMENT STATE THAT THE MESSIAH WILL HE A SECOND RETURN! And Christians claim Jesus will come back!
yes it does, if by your chopped up english you are refeing to the rapture
4) The Christian bible has been changed many times!
no it has not, its 95% textualy pure
Here is the history of The "Bible"
youtube.com...
youtube? you got to be kidding right?
5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!
no he fif not
"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14
"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12
he healed a man that made it holy
5) The Old Testament was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS!
prove it
6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).
again you fo not understand the trinity ---John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
7) Jesus's name has an origin of the devil!
bull
When you pray to J-Esus, you are really praying to the Devil by his name Esus. Esus is the pagan, Satanic god of the Celtic Druids.
ssay what? thats rubbish
The Torah / Tanakh has been written the same since it was given to the Jews by Moses! Also there was a witness of about 33,000 people who heard God speak saying "This is what I want you to follow"!
so what, times changed when Christ came
[edit on 30-9-2007 by agoodshot]
[edit on 30-9-2007 by agoodshot]
I don't believe there are false religions based on the fact that once a person truly believes in a Higher Power, a Creative Force, which most
religions call God, then none of us should try to knock down anothers belief, because God's hand created all of them to meet the needs of all His
people.
I have read before that the Torah was orally passed down and once it was written it was originally a Manual for Men to study. I'm not talking about propaganda, because I believe these people existed. I do feel that the original stories of both the Old Testament and New Testament have been extremely embellished. The idea of these writings was to capture the minds of those reading it. Did God come to visit Abraham at his tent! In my opinion, God did not. I believe that terms were used differently in those times, just like the counting of days, months, etc. It is hard for me to believe that even today anyone can believe that an individual could live hundreds of years, or that Sarah gave birth in her 70s.
In the New Testament, Jesus turns water into wine. In ancient times wine was very thick. At some point someone realized that by adding water it actually made a better tasting wine. Was Jesus the first person to think to do that? I don't think so myself, but he did learn it from someone. I believe that Jesus was not a poor man. To be a carpenter in ancient times was a highly skilled craft and, therefore, paid well. I believe Jesus was very well-travelled and learned many customs from other areas. I believe that Joseph was Jesus' real father. Also, it would've been very strange for Jesus not to have been married as a Jewish man. Whether he was married to Mary Magdalene, obviously, I wouldn't know that.
It seems that everyone capitalized on Jesus' after his death, if he did die on the cross. I did read a book that the Talmud does have an entry around the time of Jesus' crucifixion regarding a man they thought insane who did die on the cross.
Even with all that I've said, I still believe that each religion in the eyes of God has a reason for being there. It's what men do with the religions that becomes their downfall! God doesn't sleep!!!!!!!!
I have read before that the Torah was orally passed down and once it was written it was originally a Manual for Men to study. I'm not talking about propaganda, because I believe these people existed. I do feel that the original stories of both the Old Testament and New Testament have been extremely embellished. The idea of these writings was to capture the minds of those reading it. Did God come to visit Abraham at his tent! In my opinion, God did not. I believe that terms were used differently in those times, just like the counting of days, months, etc. It is hard for me to believe that even today anyone can believe that an individual could live hundreds of years, or that Sarah gave birth in her 70s.
In the New Testament, Jesus turns water into wine. In ancient times wine was very thick. At some point someone realized that by adding water it actually made a better tasting wine. Was Jesus the first person to think to do that? I don't think so myself, but he did learn it from someone. I believe that Jesus was not a poor man. To be a carpenter in ancient times was a highly skilled craft and, therefore, paid well. I believe Jesus was very well-travelled and learned many customs from other areas. I believe that Joseph was Jesus' real father. Also, it would've been very strange for Jesus not to have been married as a Jewish man. Whether he was married to Mary Magdalene, obviously, I wouldn't know that.
It seems that everyone capitalized on Jesus' after his death, if he did die on the cross. I did read a book that the Talmud does have an entry around the time of Jesus' crucifixion regarding a man they thought insane who did die on the cross.
Even with all that I've said, I still believe that each religion in the eyes of God has a reason for being there. It's what men do with the religions that becomes their downfall! God doesn't sleep!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by agoodshot
:
Thats a lie --It says this:
Isaiah 45
1"This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
Isaiah 45 : 4-6
4 For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel Mine elect, I have called thee by thy name, I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known Me.
5 I am G-d, and there is none else, beside Me there is no G-d; I have girded thee, though thou hast not known Me;
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am G-d; and there is none else;
the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine
s = holy spirit, g = God, J = Jesus
1s = 1j = 1g, But according to Christians: 1s + 1j + 1g = 1g
whats your point [of the quote of Matthew 5:17-19]?
Jesus abolished some of the law. He broke a promise which God promised he will never do!
* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.
If Jesus claim he hasn't come to abolish the law you should be following these commandments!
*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur
we are not jews , do muslims celebrate christmas?
Some Christians don't even celebrate Christmas so what's your point?
where [did Jesus change the rules]?
Mark 7:18-20 for starters
The OT NEVER SAID MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!
yes it does,--- 2 Samuel 22:47
The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.
It's: "G-d liveth, and blessed be my Rock; and exalted be the G-d, my Rock of salvation;"
There's a difference between "Exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation" and "Exalted be the God, my rock of salvation"
And where does it say this is a prophecy for the messiah?
1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.
It's: Sing unto G-d, all the earth; proclaim His salvation from day to day."
And 1 Chronicles 16: 23 is talking about G-d not Messiah!
Psalm 3:8
Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah
Actually it's Psalms 3:9. It says salvation belongs to God.
Psalm 85:7
Shew us thy mercy, O LORD, and grant us thy salvation
It's Psalms 85:8. And once again it says God grants us salvation not the messiah
and it never says there is a trinity but its still an essential christian doctrine
Exactly
"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16
They do, Jesus saves us from the second death as explained in scripture
Even Jesus die for his sin of claiming to be God
yes it does [say Jesus will return for the rapture],
And even that was a false prophecy! Jesus says "Truly I say, this generation won't pass away until all these things take place.". That generation did pass and Jesus never came back!
no [the Christian bible] has not [been changed], its 95% textually pure
Did you know that some of the books were changed?
youtube? you got to be kidding right?
You won't watch it because it's on YouTube? You do know that this was aired on the History Channel, right? How Stubborn!
no he didn't [break a commandment]
he healed a man that made it holy
You are not allowed to work on the Sabbath, healing some one is work
prove [The OT was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS]
There's too many but the word "alma" for "virgin" instead of "young woman" is one!
you don't understand the trinity-John 10:30
"I and my Father are one."
We have already gone through this!
so what, times changed when Christ came
This is all you have to say for this? Did you run out of counter arguments for Jesus?
Hope this helps one God but in many parts.
1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
==============================================================
What the post maker says are false is not so true, if one does not explore properly you can not find truth because most of the anwers are in the Bible, you just have to see and understand and connect.
[edit on 30-9-2007 by The time lord]
1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
==============================================================
What the post maker says are false is not so true, if one does not explore properly you can not find truth because most of the anwers are in the Bible, you just have to see and understand and connect.
[edit on 30-9-2007 by The time lord]
I can see you just do not understand the trinity, and thats no surprise
for non Christians
nevertheless it is an established Christian doctrine and questions make sense you need to understand the doctrine
If not then that is the readers right
I am not saying belive it , but understand it
much of your confusion seems to be that you use a different translation
i Use the AKJV and you do not get the fact that Jesus was God in the flesh
Jesus is Gods son
God is the father
God Jesus and the HS are all God
anyway, thats the doctrine and i can not change it
it is what it is
your questions are just the same ones and again the Doctrine of the trinity answers it
now i do not doubt that it makes no sense to you
and it is obvious you are bias but that and your opinion in and of it self is not proof, merely your opinion
I and others have correctly explained the Doctrine of the Trinity to you
again thats all we can do, correctly tell folks what it is
Its up to the reader to make his mind up but at Least the correct Doctrine has been explained.
for non Christians
nevertheless it is an established Christian doctrine and questions make sense you need to understand the doctrine
If not then that is the readers right
I am not saying belive it , but understand it
much of your confusion seems to be that you use a different translation
i Use the AKJV and you do not get the fact that Jesus was God in the flesh
Jesus is Gods son
God is the father
God Jesus and the HS are all God
anyway, thats the doctrine and i can not change it
it is what it is
your questions are just the same ones and again the Doctrine of the trinity answers it
now i do not doubt that it makes no sense to you
and it is obvious you are bias but that and your opinion in and of it self is not proof, merely your opinion
I and others have correctly explained the Doctrine of the Trinity to you
again thats all we can do, correctly tell folks what it is
Its up to the reader to make his mind up but at Least the correct Doctrine has been explained.
Originally posted by The time lord
Hope this helps one God but in many parts.
1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
The answers to what the post maker says are false is not so true if one does not explore because most of the answers are in the Bible in the Bible, you just have to see and understand.
I do not believe in the New Testament becauseThe New Testament was added to the Old Testament which is forbidden
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YHVH your G-d which I command you. - Deut. 4:2
reply to post by arpgme
You have raised some interesting questions. All of them need to be addressed but I'll have to select just one to discuss tonight. If I may make a suggestion, please put your post in a paragraph form so it is easier to read. It would greatly help.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
It would be easier to understand if you were familiar with the parable of the fig tree:
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29. So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
The parable was about Israel becoming a nation in 1948. That couldn't be seen until our present generation so "this generation" has to be the generation in which the event would occur.
This is the last generation and we will see all prophesy fulfilled. The Biblical generations are 40, 70 and 120. We passed the first marker in 1988 and it could be anytime from now until 2068. However, if I was a gambler I would lay odds on it happening before 2018.
If you would like information on the fig tree parable I would be glad to tell you what I know about it. Please let me know. It is important as He said, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree".
Regardless of our differences in the Old and New Testament, Jew or Christian we will be joined as children of God.
Ezekiel 37:15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16.Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions;
17. And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
22.and I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, either shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
God will join the tribe of Judah, the Jews, with those of the house of Israel, the 10 northern tribes (not the present day nation of Israel). They will again be one with one king over them all.
I don't know the answer to this question. I'll ask a friend who is very knowledgable about the Bible and hopefully he can shed some light for us both.
.........Whirlwind
You have raised some interesting questions. All of them need to be addressed but I'll have to select just one to discuss tonight. If I may make a suggestion, please put your post in a paragraph form so it is easier to read. It would greatly help.
Mark's Jesus, after listing all the tribulations that the world must endure before he returns a second time (Mark 13:3-29, Matthew 24:3-33) says: "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Mark 13:30, Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32). Jesus was directing this remark specifically to his contemporary generation and not to some unknown future generation. Jesus, addressing his disciples "privately" (Mark 13:3, Matthew 24:3) listed what was going to happen before his return. He then added, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you and you shall be hated of all nations for my names sake" (Matthew 24:9). Mark's version adds, "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" (Mark 13:13). Thus, it appears from this last remark that at least some of the disciples would survive and be present to witness the second coming and the end of time. There is no need to interpret the verse, "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" otherwise than that Jesus was speaking here of his contemporary generation. The expression "this generation" appears fourteen times in the Gospels and always applies to Jesus' contemporaries. That generation passed away without Jesus returning. Therefore, we are confronted by another unfulfilled promise by Jesus. Jesus did not return during the period he himself specifically designated. Some commentators are of the opinion that "this generation" means the generation alive when this prophecy comes to pass, which they believe has yet to occur. But, the text shows that Jesus was'nt speaking to an unspecified future generation; he was speaking to his disciples and directed this prophecy to them personally.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
It would be easier to understand if you were familiar with the parable of the fig tree:
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29. So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
The parable was about Israel becoming a nation in 1948. That couldn't be seen until our present generation so "this generation" has to be the generation in which the event would occur.
This is the last generation and we will see all prophesy fulfilled. The Biblical generations are 40, 70 and 120. We passed the first marker in 1988 and it could be anytime from now until 2068. However, if I was a gambler I would lay odds on it happening before 2018.
If you would like information on the fig tree parable I would be glad to tell you what I know about it. Please let me know. It is important as He said, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree".
Regardless of our differences in the Old and New Testament, Jew or Christian we will be joined as children of God.
Ezekiel 37:15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16.Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions;
17. And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
22.and I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, either shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
God will join the tribe of Judah, the Jews, with those of the house of Israel, the 10 northern tribes (not the present day nation of Israel). They will again be one with one king over them all.
(Mark 3:19-21, 31), during the period when he was preaching, Jesus' relatives, his mother and his brothers, believed that he was mentally ill. "neither did his brothers believe in him" (John 7:5). It seems, Mary, forgot the visits of angels. Mary seems to have forgotten her own impregnation by the Holy Spirit! This is proof that Jesus had NO MIRACLES surrounded his birth.
I don't know the answer to this question. I'll ask a friend who is very knowledgable about the Bible and hopefully he can shed some light for us both.
.........Whirlwind
reply to post by arpgme
The following is the answer I received from my friend about your statement of Jesus and His family. I told him it appears you are of the Jewish faith and question the validity of the New Testament. I am glad you asked that question because I have also learned from it. His reply goes deeply into it and requires two posts.
(Mark 3:19-21, 31), during the period when he was preaching, Jesus' relatives, his mother and his brothers, believed that he was mentally ill.
Young's Literal Translation[Mark 3:21] And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
The friends referred to here, are not his family. His "Family" (mother and brothers) arrive in verse 31. Mark records them saying nothing! His sisters could have been with "The Friends". He was in Galilee so it is quite conceivable that some of these friends could have been neighbors or previous acquaintances.....but they were not his mother and brothers.
Luke records the same event [8:19-21] but does not mention the "Friends" calling Him crazy. The "Family" says nothing!
We know that Mary is aware of His power and Messiah ship as scriptures confirm her receiving this revelation from the Holy Spirit.....no need to dwell on that. [John 2:5] Mary simply says, (knowing his power) "Do whatever he tells you". No where in scripture are we told that Mary doubts Him at all ....or thinks that He is crazy! The brothers....on the other hand, do not feel the same!
It seems that the John 7:5 verse wouldn't agree with that. Yup!
The brothers were very jealous of Him, hated Him and wanted Him dead! This is one of the reasons you see none of them (there were four) at the tomb and why Jesus gave to John, his cousin....the responsibility of caring for His mother. Our Lord did not select any of His own brothers to be an Apostle and none was selected to be a replacement for Judas.....so their standing among the Apostles could have been quite suspect also.
[John 7:1-5] After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand. His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. For neither did his brethren believe in him.
As you read this scripture you can just visualize the sneers and hear the taunts from His brothers. They knew the Jews had it in for Him....wanting to kill Him, but they were telling Him to go to the feast, putting Himself in jeopardy. He goes anyway....without His brothers knowing it (verse 10).
Our Lord had a special childhood and as such His brethren may have taken on their jealous nature during this time. These brothers are mentioned in [Acts 1:14] as being in prayer with Mary early after the resurrection and they may have been rehabilitated and now considered believers (verse 15)....I'm not sure. Still, 15 years later, Peter...having escaped from prison felt it not safe to stay with the brothers [Acts 12:17]. James, the Apostle, had just been killed....and Herod had noticed how it had pleased the Jews (verse 3) so in attempting to kill Peter he figured he would get "The Grand Poobah". It backfired (verses 6-9). At this time in Jerusalem things had changed radically from shortly after the formation of the church at Pentecost. Early on, thousands were becoming Christians daily [Acts 2:41] and people attempted to place sick folk in Peter's shadow [Acts 5:15]. Something had changed in this short period of time since the first "Christian" Pentecost and Herod noticed that by killing Apostles........it pleased the Jews! Why?
Peter was afraid of James [Galatians 2:11-12] and as Bishop of Jerusalem [Acts 15:19], James carried a lot of authority. We are speaking of The Lord's brother here [Galatians 1:18-19]....not the Apostle James (and cousin of Our Lord) who was killed by Herod [Acts 12:2]. How ever did James become the bishop of Jerusalem....with all his baggage?
Why did Peter instruct the folks at John Mark's mother's house [Acts 12:12-17] to go and tell the "brothers" what happened? Why didn't he just send word to the Apostle John or some other Apostles? Why is Peter reporting to them (the brothers)? Were they his superiors in the Jerusalem church? We know that James is head of the church in chapter 15 so it stands to reason that by A.D.49 (date of the Council) the brothers are firmly in control of the fledgling Christian Church.
[Acts 12:1-3] Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) It kind of makes you wonder just "WHO" of the church wouldn't have been vexed????? Surely, by the next morning, the entire city of Jerusalem would have heard of Peter's escape. Why does Peter want James to know this in the middle of the night?
[Matthew 13:54-58] And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
This was Our Lord's own statement about His brothers. They gave Him no honor or respect. This was His opinion of James, Joses, Simon and Judah.....and evidently His sisters also! There is no place in scripture where it is said His own family (brothers and sisters) honored Him. James writes in his own book that he is a servant of Jesus Christ....but never mentions the resurrection. There is no indication anywhere else in scripture that he is saved....except his own words in [James 1:1].
Continued............
The following is the answer I received from my friend about your statement of Jesus and His family. I told him it appears you are of the Jewish faith and question the validity of the New Testament. I am glad you asked that question because I have also learned from it. His reply goes deeply into it and requires two posts.
(Mark 3:19-21, 31), during the period when he was preaching, Jesus' relatives, his mother and his brothers, believed that he was mentally ill.
Young's Literal Translation[Mark 3:21] And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
The friends referred to here, are not his family. His "Family" (mother and brothers) arrive in verse 31. Mark records them saying nothing! His sisters could have been with "The Friends". He was in Galilee so it is quite conceivable that some of these friends could have been neighbors or previous acquaintances.....but they were not his mother and brothers.
Luke records the same event [8:19-21] but does not mention the "Friends" calling Him crazy. The "Family" says nothing!
We know that Mary is aware of His power and Messiah ship as scriptures confirm her receiving this revelation from the Holy Spirit.....no need to dwell on that. [John 2:5] Mary simply says, (knowing his power) "Do whatever he tells you". No where in scripture are we told that Mary doubts Him at all ....or thinks that He is crazy! The brothers....on the other hand, do not feel the same!
It seems that the John 7:5 verse wouldn't agree with that. Yup!
The brothers were very jealous of Him, hated Him and wanted Him dead! This is one of the reasons you see none of them (there were four) at the tomb and why Jesus gave to John, his cousin....the responsibility of caring for His mother. Our Lord did not select any of His own brothers to be an Apostle and none was selected to be a replacement for Judas.....so their standing among the Apostles could have been quite suspect also.
[John 7:1-5] After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand. His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. For neither did his brethren believe in him.
As you read this scripture you can just visualize the sneers and hear the taunts from His brothers. They knew the Jews had it in for Him....wanting to kill Him, but they were telling Him to go to the feast, putting Himself in jeopardy. He goes anyway....without His brothers knowing it (verse 10).
Our Lord had a special childhood and as such His brethren may have taken on their jealous nature during this time. These brothers are mentioned in [Acts 1:14] as being in prayer with Mary early after the resurrection and they may have been rehabilitated and now considered believers (verse 15)....I'm not sure. Still, 15 years later, Peter...having escaped from prison felt it not safe to stay with the brothers [Acts 12:17]. James, the Apostle, had just been killed....and Herod had noticed how it had pleased the Jews (verse 3) so in attempting to kill Peter he figured he would get "The Grand Poobah". It backfired (verses 6-9). At this time in Jerusalem things had changed radically from shortly after the formation of the church at Pentecost. Early on, thousands were becoming Christians daily [Acts 2:41] and people attempted to place sick folk in Peter's shadow [Acts 5:15]. Something had changed in this short period of time since the first "Christian" Pentecost and Herod noticed that by killing Apostles........it pleased the Jews! Why?
Peter was afraid of James [Galatians 2:11-12] and as Bishop of Jerusalem [Acts 15:19], James carried a lot of authority. We are speaking of The Lord's brother here [Galatians 1:18-19]....not the Apostle James (and cousin of Our Lord) who was killed by Herod [Acts 12:2]. How ever did James become the bishop of Jerusalem....with all his baggage?
Why did Peter instruct the folks at John Mark's mother's house [Acts 12:12-17] to go and tell the "brothers" what happened? Why didn't he just send word to the Apostle John or some other Apostles? Why is Peter reporting to them (the brothers)? Were they his superiors in the Jerusalem church? We know that James is head of the church in chapter 15 so it stands to reason that by A.D.49 (date of the Council) the brothers are firmly in control of the fledgling Christian Church.
[Acts 12:1-3] Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) It kind of makes you wonder just "WHO" of the church wouldn't have been vexed????? Surely, by the next morning, the entire city of Jerusalem would have heard of Peter's escape. Why does Peter want James to know this in the middle of the night?
[Matthew 13:54-58] And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
This was Our Lord's own statement about His brothers. They gave Him no honor or respect. This was His opinion of James, Joses, Simon and Judah.....and evidently His sisters also! There is no place in scripture where it is said His own family (brothers and sisters) honored Him. James writes in his own book that he is a servant of Jesus Christ....but never mentions the resurrection. There is no indication anywhere else in scripture that he is saved....except his own words in [James 1:1].
Continued............
reply to post by arpgme
Continued.............
[John 7:6-10] Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
See the difference in Our Saviour's opinion of Himself.... and His brothers. The world cannot hate them because the world is evil! The world hates Him....because He testifies of it. We sometimes forget how much Our Lord was hated. In the Gospel of John itself there are twenty instances of people trying to harm Him or kill Him.....and this included his own flesh and blood.
Well.....15 years later Peter is evidently subservient to these same brothers.....and he is fearful of them. There was division in the early church and James and the brothers were leaders of one of the factions.....the circumcision faction [Galatians 2:4][Galatians 2:12]! These brothers did not honor Our Lord, they were not picked to be disciples nor chosen as Apostles, Our Lord said the world could not hate them, they evidently sought Our Lord's capture, imprisonment and death at the Feast, Our Lord did not entrust the care of His mother to any of them, not one was even considered to replace Judas.....but one became the leader of the Jerusalem Church!
Yes....your "Jewish" friend did have an interesting question.....and most folks are not aware of the answer. Our Lord's brothers were indeed suspect. The fact he groups them in together with Mary in some kind of conspiracy just means that he hasn't been taught New Testament scripture correctly. Not hard to understand that!
Enter Paul!
He covered your question, or statement, pretty thoroughly. It helped my understanding and I hope it did the same for you.
................Whirlwind
Continued.............
[John 7:6-10] Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
See the difference in Our Saviour's opinion of Himself.... and His brothers. The world cannot hate them because the world is evil! The world hates Him....because He testifies of it. We sometimes forget how much Our Lord was hated. In the Gospel of John itself there are twenty instances of people trying to harm Him or kill Him.....and this included his own flesh and blood.
Well.....15 years later Peter is evidently subservient to these same brothers.....and he is fearful of them. There was division in the early church and James and the brothers were leaders of one of the factions.....the circumcision faction [Galatians 2:4][Galatians 2:12]! These brothers did not honor Our Lord, they were not picked to be disciples nor chosen as Apostles, Our Lord said the world could not hate them, they evidently sought Our Lord's capture, imprisonment and death at the Feast, Our Lord did not entrust the care of His mother to any of them, not one was even considered to replace Judas.....but one became the leader of the Jerusalem Church!
Yes....your "Jewish" friend did have an interesting question.....and most folks are not aware of the answer. Our Lord's brothers were indeed suspect. The fact he groups them in together with Mary in some kind of conspiracy just means that he hasn't been taught New Testament scripture correctly. Not hard to understand that!
Enter Paul!
He covered your question, or statement, pretty thoroughly. It helped my understanding and I hope it did the same for you.
................Whirlwind
Whoever you are, my friend, you are misinformed. If you really knew the scriptures, you will know, that In the beginning was the word and the word was
with God and the word became Flesh. You do not need much of a BRAIN TO UNDERSTAND THIS!! Also from scripture, from nothing else my Good Friend, we are
told before the earth was formed, God's Spirit hovered over the waters. We are are told long before you existed, that many of your kind will come and
firstly try and defile scriptures. Your name is already written. You are probably a Moslem or a Jew, which proves another point. The fact that you did
not accept that Emmanuel is God with us puts you in a troubled boat. You see the middle east, you will always be troubled, never rested. my the peace
of Jesus Christ rescue you from damnation. Open your eyes and see what's happening aroound you, it is foretold in scripture, like the second coming
of Christ, it is foretold. Wake up my misled, Ill-informed friend.
Yes, the name of Elohim is YHVH, not YHWH.
The letter is VAV, not UAU.
The letter is VAV, not UAU.
let me enlighten you
#1 those v. you gave were refering to the 2nd time he came back
#2also the trinity is very hard to understand look at my posts under that thread
#3the sabbath etc were all undeer the law and the law was fulfilled it was an eternal cov't with the JEWS that has been delayed b/c they didnt follow it
#4 the old testement especcially the prophetic books did say that he would die for our sins the v you gave refers to the laws death penalty before christ
#5 he didnt break one of the ten commandments he was proving that the temple leaders at that time were making extra laws that He proved wrong
#6 almah an undefiled young woman... you are the one with the incorrect translation
#7just because two words look the same doesnt mean they are the same and remember jesus' jewish name before it was trans. into english was yehoshua smarty pants
so to conclude it you gave irrelevent evidence and you need to study oure arguments more if you want to fight against christianity learn about it
#1 those v. you gave were refering to the 2nd time he came back
#2also the trinity is very hard to understand look at my posts under that thread
#3the sabbath etc were all undeer the law and the law was fulfilled it was an eternal cov't with the JEWS that has been delayed b/c they didnt follow it
#4 the old testement especcially the prophetic books did say that he would die for our sins the v you gave refers to the laws death penalty before christ
#5 he didnt break one of the ten commandments he was proving that the temple leaders at that time were making extra laws that He proved wrong
#6 almah an undefiled young woman... you are the one with the incorrect translation
#7just because two words look the same doesnt mean they are the same and remember jesus' jewish name before it was trans. into english was yehoshua smarty pants
so to conclude it you gave irrelevent evidence and you need to study oure arguments more if you want to fight against christianity learn about it
reply to post by whirlwind
that verse mk 3: 20-21,31 answers itself
first of all v20-21 is his friends NOT his family his friends were convinced by the enemies of jesus that he was insane
second v31 can be taken 2 ways one he was inthe house so it could be that they were just calling him in to help or somethign
or
the couldve not believed in him anymore the O.T. kings like solomon saw many miracles and still went back to his old ways no matter how many miracles one sees whether it hits hard or not humans will always have to have that faith factor to believe
that verse mk 3: 20-21,31 answers itself
first of all v20-21 is his friends NOT his family his friends were convinced by the enemies of jesus that he was insane
second v31 can be taken 2 ways one he was inthe house so it could be that they were just calling him in to help or somethign
or
the couldve not believed in him anymore the O.T. kings like solomon saw many miracles and still went back to his old ways no matter how many miracles one sees whether it hits hard or not humans will always have to have that faith factor to believe
Originally posted by arpgme
Proof that Christianity's a false religion
Seems to me that Jesus himself said an imposter would come in his name, no?
CHRIST-ianity rings a bell to me ...
Oh , nearly forgot ..
The bible also states that man would begin worshipping the creation more than the creator ... Does the Christian church not worship a flesh creation who warned us of their uprising in his name?
They sit in their churches awaiting the return of a flesh being rather than embracing the Christ conscience he readily made available for them....
Jesus attempted to bring a father to a bastardly World and the World rejected it ... Christians included ...
If Christianity was a genuine concept there is no way Christians could march on the World killing everything in their path ... Their wrath makes the wrath of Elohim pale by comparison, no?
Seems to me they think they are "god" ...
They are using the name of Christ in an attempt to put a strangle-hold on a World that does not belong to them anymore than it belongs to any other religious fanatics.
Yes, Christianity seems to be the great deceiver, just like Jesus prophesied.
If Christians supposedly follow Jesus and judaism was good enough for Jesus then why is it not good enough for them?
Btw, Christians claim North Americans are pagans because they worship a 'great creator' a 'great redeemer' and a 'great spirit' . Shouldn't that make North Americans Christians and not pagans?
I believe the North Americans might be the truest of Apostles....
Sitting Bull emulated Christ directly before the little big horn, no?
An act that every North American man, woman and child associated with that great victory.
~peace
[edit on 6-7-2008 by ShawNee922]
[edit on 6-7-2008 by ShawNee922]
new topics
-
Let's talk planes.
General Chit Chat: 6 hours ago -
January 6th report shows disturbing trend (nobody is shocked)
US Political Madness: 8 hours ago -
Inexplicable military simulation - virtual reality showdown in the night..
The Gray Area: 8 hours ago -
The Truth about Migrant Crime in Britain.
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 9 hours ago -
Trudeau Resigns! Breaking
Mainstream News: 11 hours ago
top topics
-
Trudeau Resigns! Breaking
Mainstream News: 11 hours ago, 26 flags -
January 6th report shows disturbing trend (nobody is shocked)
US Political Madness: 8 hours ago, 20 flags -
Live updates: Congress meets to certify Trump's presidential election victory
US Political Madness: 12 hours ago, 12 flags -
The Truth about Migrant Crime in Britain.
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 9 hours ago, 10 flags -
Gravitic Propulsion--What IF the US and China Really Have it?
General Conspiracies: 12 hours ago, 9 flags -
Let's talk planes.
General Chit Chat: 6 hours ago, 5 flags -
Greatest thing you ever got, or bought?
General Chit Chat: 13 hours ago, 4 flags -
Inexplicable military simulation - virtual reality showdown in the night..
The Gray Area: 8 hours ago, 2 flags
active topics
-
Judge rules president-elect Donald Trump must be sentenced in 'hush money' trial
US Political Madness • 31 • : JadedGhost -
Gravitic Propulsion--What IF the US and China Really Have it?
General Conspiracies • 16 • : YouSir -
January 6th report shows disturbing trend (nobody is shocked)
US Political Madness • 45 • : RazorV66 -
Trudeau Resigns! Breaking
Mainstream News • 65 • : firerescue -
Greatest thing you ever got, or bought?
General Chit Chat • 21 • : rickymouse -
Islam And A Book Of Lies
Religion, Faith, And Theology • 12 • : nugget1 -
Trump says ownership of Greenland 'is an absolute necessity'
Other Current Events • 65 • : BingoMcGoof -
Let's talk planes.
General Chit Chat • 7 • : rickymouse -
Democrats Introduce Bill That Will Take Away Donald Trumps Secret Service Protection
2024 Elections • 77 • : WeMustCare -
OK this is sad but very strange stuff
Paranormal Studies • 8 • : rickymouse