Mom, Dad? Why did they point guns at me?

First and foremost, it is the right of every american man or woman to decide for themselves whether or not a cause is really about freedom, liberty, and the american way.

To those in the military that have responded by caling me a "Draft Dodger", Allow me to retort by saying that you were trained to comply and follow orders without question. To look beyond yourselves, and achieve your goals no matter what.

The problems I described were quite generalized, and I'll be the first to admit that. To be honest, if it would please those that defend officers of the law, my uncle works for the LAPD as a member of SWAT. I should have clarified that not all cops are bad, but then again you cannot judge that all of them are good.

Given recent events involving misuse of tazers, along with the history of riots started by undercover officers to disperse crowds in peaceful protests, and PERSONAL experience in dealing with bad cops is what led me to my presumptuous and rather radical opinion. Not to mention the tons of research I do in my spare time in my own personal search for the truth without someone telling me what and how to believe.

At age 21, and my record is SQUEEKY clean, so please refrain from poorly formed assumptions that my age, or actions, had anything to do with the multiple occasions I have been harrassed by the men in tights. Moving on to the main point in my response now.

You cannot possibly tell me that you would stand for what I described in my first post, as it is a true story, and is on the forums here on ATS. If you seem to think that all of this misuse of force is justified, you must not have children. They threw those kids around, and scared them #less.

As for my beliefs about the Iraq war, I pray every day for the forgiveness of the brave souls that have died for any lie presented by this government as the reason for hostile actions. I, PERSONALLY, have lost 3 friends. I'd list their names gladly, but as I am new to posting in this community I will hesitate for the time being to check the rules.

In closing, it would be unamerican not to question the government, and even more unamerican to dishonor the memory of those who have died in the name of Freedom by using it as a reason to justify an agenda in which the sole purpose isnt freedon and democracy.

It's about control and profit, and my ancestors would be ashamed of me if I took part in it, especially my Uncle Carl, who died a week before he was to be shipped home from Vietnam, and on his birthday.

-Knight

Someone said, "btw. the military is not a democracy like the rest of this country..".

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Knightshadowz]

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Knightshadowz]

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Knightshadowz]

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Knightshadowz]

Originally posted by Knightshadowz

To those in the military that have responded by caling me a "Draft Dodger", Allow me to retort by saying that you were trained to comply and follow orders without question. To look beyond yourselves, and achieve your goals no matter what.

No one trained me to follow orders without question, someone clearly crossed your wires.. I was trained to follow the rules and regulations which included the UCMJ which if need be I could have refused to follow if anyone above told me to do something illegal.


As for your uncle have you ever given anythought to the possibility he might be ashamed of you for not wanting to fight for your country?

Originally posted by Tinhatman
Wow. It's hard to blieve so many people on a site like this are such Statist Fascist types.

Wow, I find it hard to believe that people on this site would label someone who doesn't share their opinion as a fascist. Oh wait, you are coming from the left, which makes it okay to direct ad hominem attacks on someone who doesn't think the way you do and then if they try to disagree will condemn them for not allowing you to speak.

How about this. I don't think like you do. I have every right that I had prior to the passage of the Patriot Act. I have traveled overseas since and the wait wasn't longer than when I traveled before.

There are bad cops but most of them are decent people trying to make their community a better place to live. Way to generalize and lump them all together. Say the same thing about black people and see how that tastes in your mouth. If you are anything other than a hypocrite it will taste like ash.

I served for 4 years in the military and trust me when I say that NO ONE in the military wants there to be a draft - it would reduce the quality of our military and would plant the seed of doubt in the minds of your fellow servicemen who would have to wonder if they could count on you when things got rough because you are there because you were forced, not because you chose to serve.

Enjoy your freedom to say whatever you want.

Originally posted by shots




As for your uncle have you ever given anythought to the possibility he might be ashamed of you for not wanting to fight for your country?

Fight for what? what would he be fighting for?

Knights,

I would like to respond to your last post, but I don't believe anything that is said to you will make you see reason.

Your hatred for this great country is at best misguided. Yes, you are young, very young and that doesn't help you because most of the time your generation will speak with emotion and knee-jerk reactions.

I'd like to ask you something though, you said that you've lost three friends in the Iraq war. How did they feel about vonunteering for service in the U.S. Military? (you do know that it's an all volunteer service).

And now that they are gone, how would they feel about you disrespecting there memories by your comments of there service to our nation?

You don't realize that this war is not about the things you've mentioned, but it's bigger than that.

Originally posted by thorgor
It guys like Knight that no one takes this site seriously. Just a bunch of ranting anti-"whoever is in charge" conspiraphiles complaining about elaborate crack-pot theories using twisted "facts".

Do some research before you dismiss other people's ideas as "elaborate crack-pot theories".

You're the reason the country is in the war that it's currently in. It's not the "terrorists". It's you. Because you choose not to teach yourself or reach out and learn new ideas and information outside of what you're fed on television. You sit back and night and suck up all the "entertainment" that's on MTV and Discovery or watch the "news" and believe everything you're told and don't believe everything you're not told. Why are you the reason? Because if more people asked questions of the authorities and actually tried to LEARN something, the Oil companies and Banking Institutions and other major corporations never would have been able to orchastrate the wars that we've entered into since the first world war for nothing but profit and power.

Facts:
1. Newsweek October 2006 issue: Publishes an article that declares that the U.S. is losing the war in Afgahnistan. Of course you wouldn't believe this because the issue put out in the United States didn't have that article in it. It had an article about warm and fuzzy life in photos of some movie star. The rest of the world would believe it though because they actually recieved the issue that published the article about how we were about to loose our grip on Afgahistan.

2. You pay a Federal Income Tax every year that you don't actually have to pay.

Chalk those up to conspiracy and you're just plain ignorant.

I would much rather be a conspiraphiles and know a little bit of the truth when it comes to matters outside what the government want you to know than be a ignoramous that believes whatever is shoved down his throat when he turns the TV on.

Rant? You'r God-damned right it's a rant. I'm pissed off. I'm sick and tired of all those people who sloth through their lives learning only what they're taught and doing as little as they can. They're like some sort of farm animal and FAR from being a free thinking human being.

The statists and fascists were labeled so because of their belief. Believing that there should be forced servitude is a fascist point of view. Thinking that the Patriot Act that gives the executive branch the power to declare even US citizens enemy combatants is a good bit of legislation comes from having a Statist or Fascist point of view. I was not name calling or trying to offend. You are what you are and that is your right. If you chose to call me a libertarian or an Anarchist I would not be offended. Stand up and be proud of what you are. That's what makes America great. Just do not force me to suffer the same as you choose.

As far as Ad hominem attacks and the whole "left-right" propaganda bit I think we could leave that to Sean Hannity eh? I do not see politics from that spectrum, I choose to have an open mind about things like that. I also choose to study passionately the writing of Locke, Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Emerson, Thoreau, etc etc. I agree wholeheartedly with liberty, freedom, reason, and logic. I cling to it like a branch in a stream. I am also a registered Republican.

I was just surprised that a website like this would have so many folks so willing to bow down and let the state rest its foot so squarely upon their neck and eat all that was fed to them.

Your life may not have changed since the Patriot Act but other people's lives have been devestated by it.

"When they came for the Jews, I did not care. When they came for the Gypsy', I did not care. When they came for the Homosexuals I did not care. When they came for me, there was no one left to care."

reply to post by Knightshadowz


Excellent post, same way I feel but I am no where near being a parent in fact Im still kinda the child. If a draft does in fact happen I may just go in the hopes that with my intellect I can achieve a nice rank in the military and who knows one day the NWO?


Yeah right I would fight my $## of and get rid of these communist police surrounding my house and bomb the FEMA war camps. Never would I surrender to a force, race, country, even an entire alien galaxy. Better sure as hell get up and take a stand on what you beleive.

To whoever posted this I really like the post and hope if the NWO comes into power that we can be standing side by side trying to get back the freedom we once had!

As I posted in another thread my girlfriend's oldest child has already been through two 'lock downs' where the police bring in weapons and threaten the children at gunpoint. There are other reports of these lock downs in many states, I suggest that if you are a parent you call your school and ask for information (you will be given either whitewashed info or no info.)

I think the OPs post was perfectly acceptable, and refreshing in fact. Call him jaded, who wouldn't be? The country he was falsely promised during childhood is being destroyed and he won't be growing up with the same freedoms many of you older vets have fought for.

It is sickening and depressing to see the truth yet be called ignorant by those with blinders on, but that is the way things have worked for thousands of years.

I guess I have multiple replies to the OP...

1. Police - I agree the police are outa control in our country. I recently visited home (Texas, I live i New Zealand) and the first question that came to mind is why do alot of these minor municipalities need SWAT teams?..there are suburbs around DFW that have full blown paramilitary SWAT units, what the hell for???

2. Military - Freedom is not FREE!!!, someone has to put their behind on the line and protect our country, obviously it wont be you!

I, like a few of the above posters have serverd in the U.S. military (Navy 82-86), my father served in NAM, he was army, his brother a Marine also in NAM, my brother a Marine, my brother-in-law a Marine and my eldest son will be Navy bound when he finishes school.

No one WANTS to die while serving their country! but it could and does happen, no one is forced to join up, we all know what serving in the military can cost us personally...but the cost to this country of not serving and defending her is far beyond my personal difficulties with death.

I love listening to people like you, who have never lifted a finger to serve a higher purpose, yet your so quick to tell us what we have lost.

You obviously have not lost the right to free speech, the price for that has been paid for you...with the blood of people who knew...FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!!

Originally posted by deadbang
I love listening to people like you, who have never lifted a finger to serve a higher purpose, yet your so quick to tell us what we have lost.

If you are including me in this category, you are far from correct. You haven't a clue what I have done to serve a higher purpose, and frankly don't have the right to judge me based only on what your opinion of a higher purpose is. You do not know the pains and losses that some of us have endured in order to seek truth, to educate, to inform, and to stay sane through it all.

Carrying a gun into battle is brave and serves an agenda, no one is disrespecting that. But there are also other ways to serve a higher purpose, to lose oneself for the greater good of humanity. Perhaps the ones that are not carrying the guns are able to see what is being lost back home, because they are not preoccupied with staying alive in a battle zone. I know that if I was a gun carrier over seas, my only concern would be keeping my buddies and my self alive, while carrying out whatever agenda I am told.

Even though many of us non-war going people show you disrespect, there is no need to be reciprocal about it. We can learn from each other if our egos allow it. We see things here while our soldiers are overseas, and there is nothing wrong with trying to inform them of what is happening.

Originally posted by deadbang
I guess I have multiple replies to the OP...

1. Police - I agree the police are outa control in our country. I recently visited home (Texas, I live i New Zealand) and the first question that came to mind is why do alot of these minor municipalities need SWAT teams?..there are suburbs around DFW that have full blown paramilitary SWAT units, what the hell for???

2. Military - Freedom is not FREE!!!, someone has to put their behind on the line and protect our country, obviously it wont be you!

I, like a few of the above posters have serverd in the U.S. military (Navy 82-86), my father served in NAM, he was army, his brother a Marine also in NAM, my brother a Marine, my brother-in-law a Marine and my eldest son will be Navy bound when he finishes school.

No one WANTS to die while serving their country! but it could and does happen, no one is forced to join up, we all know what serving in the military can cost us personally...but the cost to this country of not serving and defending her is far beyond my personal difficulties with death.



You obviously have not lost the right to free speech, the price for that has been paid for you...with the blood of people who knew...FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!!

Thank you for your astute input.

1. Case in point.

2. Protect us from what? The military-industrial complex hard at work.


Thank you for fighting for me, though I am sure that while its an excellent excuse someday you will see the fault behind your logic.

I have been labeled on this post many times as many things I most certainly am not. Contrary to popular assumption associated with a persons refusal to "fight for daddy warbucks", I am neither a draft dodger nor a coward. I assume, as many of you have, that you think that when you toss around labels like that.

In fact, if there were truly a threat, I would fight harder than most of you do in a lifetime, respectfully. It takes more courage not to kill a man than it does to kill him, this from personal experience. Perhaps someday the temporary friend/permenent enemy mentality of US politics will change for the better and we wont need to worry anymore, but that is wishful thinking at its best.

Lastly, given my respect and pity for those that served a cause other than the one truly being fought for, I will restrain myself from asking you your oath of military service. It is truly a shame when a veteran chooses the pills over accepting the fact that we have been lied to, are still being lied to, and are on a path that will take us straight where most of us belong for being so blindly arrogant about ourselves that we couldnt stop our own demise.

Forgive me if I seem blunt, but that is the simplest response I can come up with. In regards to the most insulting statement anyone can make about someone they have never met, I say this:

You: I love listening to people like you, who have never lifted a finger to serve a higher purpose, yet your so quick to tell us what we have lost.

Me: I pity listening to people like you, who have never done anything but twitch your fingers and wreck lives in the name of fear that totally contradicts himself as a soldier in doing so.

In closing, I leave you with the warmest regards and prayers that you never have to explain why you didnt act to stop this madness before it got out of hand. I won't have to make any excuses about my life, nor will I regret any action I have chosen thus far because in the end, no matter where or how I die I'll die knowing I made my stand on a message board.

For most of those lost, It's the least I can do. I am a conscientious objector, and a sole survivor.

Respectfully,

Knightshadowz

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Knightshadowz]

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Knightshadowz]

If I'm correct, cops in most places are hired by a private company, not by cities. I see this as a part of the on going violence problem, well unless it's been this way for a long time.

sorry all american but you lose your contry when the federal reserve act was passed (December 23, 1913).... and talking about freespeech in america, go talk to Andrew Meyer... the guy that was teasered....

You are not correct. Almost all communities in this country hire their police officers and they are sworn officers of the law. I don't know of anywhere that local govt. hires private companies to serve as their police dept. In Michigan communities that don't have their own PD are covered by State Police or county sheriff departments.

For the OP sworn police officers are allowed to carry their weapons in schools and there is no federal law against it.

I served in Viet Nam and lost far more than three of my friends in the conflict. I did my duty, served my country and have no apologies for anyone regarding what they may feel was an unjust war. During times of conflict individuals don't have enough information available to them to determine whether it is a just cause or not. If an emergency draft was required again than you do what is required of you. It is not a time to have each person decide for themselves whether they will answer the call of their government or not. My personal experience is that those who refuse the draft seem to always paint themselves as morally superior to the rest of us when the actual truth is they just don't have the balls to carry their share of the load.

Moral high ground my a$$. Do your job like hundreds of thousands before you have done.

I find it amazing that those who stand up against injustice and un-Constitutional acts are the ones who get labeled as un-American or that they hate this country While those who stand by and eat up every bit of BS fed to them by the corporate media as truth prop themselves up on a pedestal of superiority because they sing the tune of the elites and the media ever so diligently.

Taking every bit of information from those who run the show and taking it in without question is by far the most nieve thing one can do.

Just because one questions an unjust war, doesn't mean he hates the military, And just because you fought in a war doesn't make that war right.

When mistakes are made, and those mistakes are clear, continuing on with said mistakes just to justify them doesn't make the mistake go away, it only makes it worse.

And just because you served your country doesn't make you any more superior then the next American, it doesn't give you any more say then then the next American, you volunteered that was you choice, you made the sacrifices you made at your own free will, and you were compensated for those things, by every tax paying American.

The only duty Americans have is to to be free, and to thwart any threat to that freedom, Thats what this country is about, its not about policing the world, or killing people in foreign lands, its about freedom you can justify Iraq all you want, Iraq wasn't a threat to our freedoms, Nor will Iran be, And I will say it rather you all like it or not, and not because I hate the military, but because I respect them, and because they are being used for greed and not the protection of our freedoms, Their deaths in Iraq are a waste, Don't try and justify these deaths because they died fighting for the Government, Honor these men by standing up against those who sent them their for their own personal gains, and greed, Give these men justice by standing up to tyranny.

Their intentions when enlisting were noble, as were their sacrifices, but these things were taken advantage of by those who control them. while you all sit back and try to justify a pile of BS to give meaning to a life lost when these lives shoudl have never been lost.

[edit on 25-9-2007 by C0le]

Originally posted by duster
My personal experience is that those who refuse the draft seem to always paint themselves as morally superior to the rest of us when the actual truth is they just don't have the balls to carry their share of the load.

Moral high ground my a$$. Do your job like hundreds of thousands before you have done.

Sorry, but my life is more valuable than weapon developer's profits and polical agendas that result in profit for a select few. It's a shame that you felt that your life was expendable for power and profit. When you decided that it was your "duty" to serve your country, did you ever stop to ask yourself, "For what end am I putting my life on the line?"

Same with the servicemen in Iraq and overseas. I have no doubt, just as people have for centuries, they joined the ranks in defense of our country to serve and do what is right. But, war for corporate control of the world is not right. And for anyone who believes that they "hate are freedom" and that's the reason we went to war, I feel more sorry for you. The reason we were attacked was because of wars like Vietnam, Korea, Iran/Iraq war and several mini-conflicts that never actually got labeled as "wars" but toppled democratic governments that were in control only to install vicious dictators to control a region in order to carry out U.S. agendas.

I'm not claiming any "moral highground". I'm denying ignorance. Literally. I inform myself about issues rather than depending on others to inform and make decisions for me. If you want to salute and go running and gunning when people say, "Boy, it's your duty to America. Uncle Sam needs you." that's your problem. But, don't for one second get on your high horse thinking that you're serving and protecting your average American. You're serving corporate America and the elitist that run the government. And there's no reason to feel arrogance for that type of service whatsoever.

Forgive my sharp words, but I love you as I love all Americans. I think you're worth more than a barrel or oil or a stacked quarterly report. I know that when you went to Vietnam it wasn't for foriegn policy. It was to do the right thing. And you did the right thing. It's the United States government that failed us all by doing the wrong thing. By not standing up and denouncing the Central Banking System, thus making them, as well as all Americans, slaves to the debt and wars of America's foreign policy.

[edit on 25-9-2007 by tyranny22]

For those that feel I have tried to pass myself off as morally superior just because I served my country.

I'll let a quote by Dr. Samuel Johnson sum it up for me....

“every man thinks meanly of himself for never having been a soldier, or never having been at sea.”

I think this might be what some of you are feeling...for those of us who have answered the call, there is no "moral superiority", however, there is the satisfaction that comes with knowing we honorably served our country.

edited for spelling

[edit on 25-9-2007 by deadbang]

Originally posted by deadbang
For those that feel I have tried to pass myself off as morally superior just because I served my country.

I'll let a quote by Dr. Samuel Johnson sum it up for me....

“every man thinks meanly of himself for never having been a soldier, or never having been at sea.”

I think this might be what some of you are feeling...for those of us who have answered the call, there is no "moral superiority", however, there is the satisfaction that comes with knowing we honorably served our country.

edited for spelling

[edit on 25-9-2007 by deadbang]

No sense in any response to this, deleted.

Respectfully, I would ask you refrain from first-person views without research, but I cannot make that assumption.

[edit on 26-9-2007 by Knightshadowz]

I'm a respected foe and am suppose to further my argument? ok.

Originally posted by Knightshadowz
Call this post a warning to anyone with parental instincts and a desire to ensure the future of our children by protecting them from ANYONE who would influence them. This includes our so-called government, along with state and local ILLEGAL police procedure.


As many of you may have noticed, the sheer number of reports of police brutality in the last 2 weeks have been escalating. Police do not serve AND protect those that actually pay their salary. In fact, they are very much like security guards that have by far overstepped their bounds when it comes to just how much power they are alloted.

...

As a matter of fact, Police are government servants and Guards are mercs, paid protection. You all remember that "don't taz me bro" thing right? Guess what, they were mercs, paid guards! (I Think)

Police are allowed to prosecute based on assumption. it is not that brutality has increased, it is that people have become more aggressive (rebellion soon?). Polce are very calm actually. Two cops are under investigation where I live. They let a drunk go because she was from NJ. Well, the guy involved with a crash with this drunk, called the local borough president (connections are great ) and got the Feds involved. Problem is, the more people bad mouth cops, the less they do (police are sarcastic asses, I'll explain latter). Then their captains tell them to do more, and it goes in an endless cycle

So, sarcastic asses? What do I mean? Well, remember the german WTC bank that burned recently? The Mayor got upset? Well, to be a sarcastic ass, they raised the quota, and now they fine your house for as little as not having two lights on the front porch (yes, I'm serious!)

You may not know this, but you're not suppose to vote in Generals. There's a reason the prez is the master in chief, not the people.

Any how, I saw WTC, and it wasn't faked. I saw it fall, I saw plane 2 come in from miles away, and I saw the engines go flying out the towers post crash.

Don't worry man. I personally think that the US will collapse however. I've had dreams about how and many of those dreams have come true, amongst some being Iran, China, and Russia's growing ties.

We will be forced into invasion by the Asians, followed by 8 or so years of tyranny of a forign power, followed by a revolution, followed by, what I call, a democratic police state (don't ask) in which a General and Emperor rules all supremely, but fairly. (limited by rules). Too tired to explain, but in the end, the USA, or rather, the AE (American Empire) takes over the world and unites us in peace.