An Important Message of Love

Originally posted by WiseSheep
However I have picked through the quran some. Enough to come to the sound conclusion that Allah is satan. The Apocryphal garbage? Whatever inspired the quran inspired those too.

Probably kin closely to the one who lived in the temple of Anton Lavey.

FINALLY! Someone else who sees the truth behind "Allah"!

Originally posted by WiseSheep
People are quite free to accept or reject him.

People were quite free to slur Stalin's name. The consequences, of course, you know, therefore you know it is not freedom. You have said nothing, as usual.

Answer me this. When you see the wickedness going on all over this world, does it look like a police state to you?

In fact there are widely varying degrees of this around the world. Here it is virtually nonexistent (not completely), but in China it is relatively severe but not everywhere.

Men choose not to come to the light because as he said their deeds are evil.

Pass me some context.

Like cockroaches they dance around the issue in conversation scurrying around trying to find a dark place to hide.

Context would help, but if you think I am scurrying you are sadly mistaken. I find you scurrying as your arguments seem never to get to any point. I am making specific points, repeating them to you over and over again, and you evade rather than acknowledge directly such simple questions.

My SIG was written just for you several months ago and these points still remain totally unacknowledged by you.

The thoughts simply are a symptom of what you and I ARE. What we are is the problem. Forget the thoughts or what we do or don't do.

We are animals. All animals must reproduce and lust is a necessary characteristic. This is axiomatic. You distort this to evil ends.

A man has no clue what he is, until he is shown what he is.

Man is an animal. Most people unfortunately do, but it remains self-evident.

In light of perfection. If you ever see this, it will not be your doing, it will be a gift from GOD.

Perfection is an infinite absence of deviation from a conceived design. It is a real impossibility. You have not seen this.

Now if you'd like to get into a discussion regarding the police state. I can tell you this. The reason you don't see and understand certain things is because he owns your mind. You will see and comprehend what you will and you won't what you won't.

Enough. You sabotage the discussion by telling me I am owned, which is according to evidence not true. I see and comprehend what you present. You are obligated to present. Answer the question.

If you refuse to acknowledge the questions I present to you, YOU are a liar and therfore according to your own rules, YOU are owned by the FATHER OF LIES.

Answer the question.

Men are born again,...

PSYCHOTIC BREAK. Remember? Looked it up yet? If you do, it will all finally become clear to you.

Of course that wouldn't concern you any.

Concerns me immensely, such that I have learned everything I could about it and spent a lot of my personal time teaching it to you. If ANYONE is ignorant, it's you.

..., seek him while he may be found.

Already did it. This is in the past. I know more than you. I'm the one teaching you. You are in the corner. You have no way out. You have nothing. That is what is happening right now. Please acknowledge that.

C

Originally posted by WiseSheep
If one lie is in a document, how reliable should one view the rest of it? They may make good fire wood.

I hold an annual Bible Burning.

C

Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
The sooner everyone realizes that it's not about religion at all, but instead a humble heart and acceptance of Christ as our loving Savior and vindicator for righteousness... the better off we'll all be.

Indeed.
When you accept Christ, you accept his Truth. If we Love one another, we honor Christ, and in honoring him, we honor the Father in which case:

Yes...ReginaAdonnaAaron, the better off we'll all be. Amen.

Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
Thing is, it's going to take a major eye-opening event for that to happen.

Like a thief in the night, so will it be upon us. In that day there will be many men who claimed wisdom who will be humbled.

Peace

[edit on 26-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by Columbus
People were quite free to slur Stalin's name. The consequences, of course, you know, therefore you know it is not freedom.

In a way one could compare that. However Stalin didn't own the earth. He certainly didn't create it. He only had what he was allowed to have.

Originally posted by Columbus
In fact there are widely varying degrees of this around the world. Here it is virtually nonexistent (not completely), but in China it is relatively severe but not everywhere.

Imagine what the place will be when the light is taken.

Originally posted by Columbus
Pass me some context.

A couple days ago men were in the presence of the context himself and failed to see him.

Originally posted by Columbus
My SIG was written just for you several months ago and these points still remain totally unacknowledged by you.

It's my prayer that some day you understand. If you do, it is because he gave it to you. If what you would like is for someone to debate you into understanding. It will not happen.

You and a few well known other individuals around here are drawn to this type of thing. One could likely say it's your own spirit crying out, yet a debate won't save you. Only HE will.

Originally posted by Columbus
Enough. You sabotage the discussion by telling me I am owned, which is according to evidence not true.

No, it was only in hopes that you may one day humble yourself and look up to him. Although you aren't particularly the audience here.

Originally posted by Columbus
I see and comprehend what you present. You are obligated to present. Answer the question.

Actually negative. I'm obligated to do nothing. As the title states. This is out of love. Somebody said something once concerning those who see that are made blind.

Originally posted by Columbus

Men are born again,...

PSYCHOTIC BREAK. Remember?

Tell me this. What are the odds of one person being awakened to something, then to find out that a book written by many people over many generations, completely agrees with what has been revealed in the person separate from the book?

Now multiply that by the numerous others who share this same experience. What are the chances?

Originally posted by Columbus

..., seek him while he may be found.

Already did it. This is in the past.

Did one say something once about the way that many seek to enter, yet few find?

Originally posted by Columbus
That is what is happening right now. Please acknowledge that.

Paint the picture in your mind of a blind man throwing punches in mid air, convincing himself that he is totally destroying what he's up against.

Originally posted by Columbus
I hold an annual Bible Burning.

And how far will that get anyone. The one you are fighting doesn't live in a book.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
In a way one could compare that. However Stalin didn't own the earth. He certainly didn't create it. He only had what he was allowed to have.

Irrelevant. You imply someone owns the earth, but that doesn't make it so. Your view of the world still outlaws freedom and you have continuted to evade this question.

Imagine what the place will be when the light is taken.

So, why are you trying to take it by imposing your view with absolutely no freedom. It seems from the previous evasion, your desire is no freedom, no light. Your view is He is recording everything to punish everyone later. It is not the Darkness in your view recording everyone as it is in this world.

Why do you continue to evade this question?

A couple days ago men were in the presence of the context himself and failed to see him.

This is not context. It is evasion again.

It's my prayer that some day you understand. If you do, it is because he gave it to you. If what you would like is for someone to debate you into understanding. It will not happen.

I already understand. These are axioms.

Immortal == Cannot Die. This is an axiom, a definition of truth.

Deceiver == Guilty && Deceived == Not Guilty. This is an axiom, a definition of truth.

There is nothing to debate here. I am simply waiting for you to acknowledge these simple truths or provide one simply reason how they could not be true in spite of the fact they are plain and undistorted.

You don't. You evade.

You and a few well known other individuals around here are drawn to this type of thing. One could likely say it's your own spirit crying out, yet a debate won't save you. Only HE will.

Very few people succeed in leaving The Church. It was a traumatic experience that I would never wish to go through again, but I would never go back. My Spirit calls me to help others so it isn't as bad for you as it was for me. Your Spirit is calling to drag me back to Auschwitz, but I turn the other cheek.

No, it was only in hopes that you may one day humble yourself and look up to him.

One day is in the past. I told you before.

You sabotaged the discussion by telling me I couldn't know when I am asking YOU. If YOU don't know, say it. Admit ignorance. Only then can truth be found. Truth can never be found while you are blinded by faith.

Actually negative. I'm obligated to do nothing. As the title states. This is out of love. Somebody said something once concerning those who see that are made blind.

You make the claim. By definition you are obligated to present evidence to support it or be silent. Those who see, ... this is your repetitive evasion statement. You tell us we cannot see, yet YOU are obligated to provide the evidence and DO NOT. You sabotage the discussion by saying we cannot know, yet you offer nothing to support this.

Tell me this. What are the odds of one person being awakened to something, then to find out that a book written by many people over many generations, completely agrees with what has been revealed in the person separate from the book?

You did not look up psychotic break again. That is all that is apparent. Your disobedience. The Bible doesn't agree with itself. You hold faith that it does, but once you put faith to the sword you will see how wrong you are.

Did one say something once about the way that many seek to enter, yet few find?

Found. The question is what is really found? The answer is explained by understanding psuchotic break, which you refuse tyo do to protect your faith from the sword.

Which is better, to have faith in a lie or to know the truth? Faith in truth is an oxymoron. Put faith to the sword.

Paint the picture in your mind of a blind man throwing punches in mid air, convincing himself that he is totally destroying what he's up against.

In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is considered a fool, but he hits every target wherever it moves. You evade. I hit. You evade. I hit.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge or answer me, doesn't mean I haven't destroyed everything you believe in.

It is impossible that God could make any Sacrifice that He could not create again exactly as it was with an equal whim. Likewise, it is impossible that Jesus could die except as a mere man, wherein it would be meaningless to Salvation. There was never any risk to Jesus Christ that he might not Rise again, therefore there was no sacrifice. It is, with no more politically correct word available, Indian Giving.

The one you are fighting doesn't live in a book.

But your people keep printing them. It is good to remove a few copies of Satan Lies, despite your apathy.

C

Here's some thoughts of mine. Take em for whatever they are worth.

If the creator installed himself in the womb of a mortal woman. Wouldn't the product then be a perishable vessel fully indwelt by the eternal spirit?

In which case the vessel would be capable of sin and death, yet fully governed and inhabited by the eternal spirit who cannot sin. Therefore he would not sin. Then would present this vessel which was capable of sin, yet didn't sin, as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Crucifying the flesh once and for all. Conquering death for those who will receive it.

The way couldn't get any narrower.

Originally posted by Columbus
There is nothing to debate here.

No there truly isn't. As you understanding me would require a gift given to you from the one you attack continually.

Your arguments which I avoid are not to save my own rear end. It's because I already know from more past experiences than you can shake a stick at. That the outcome will be totally vain.

Except a man be given to see certain things, forget it. Otherwise we'll just dance around in circles forever.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Here's some thoughts of mine. Take em for whatever they are worth.

Why, why, why don't you just answer or acknowledge me? Why should I care about your thoughts when you ignore mine?

If the creator installed himself in the womb of a mortal woman. Wouldn't the product then be a perishable vessel fully indwelt by the eternal spirit

Why should anyone concern himself about his suit wearing out if he can easily get another?

In which case the vessel would be capable of sin and death, yet fully governed and inhabited by the eternal spirit who cannot sin.

By definition, God cannot sin, however how can God be God if he cannot control a simple human body. You lose distinction of whether you are using duality here. If you are going to invoke duality you have to maintain consistency, otherwise it's not clear whether the body is guilty or the spirit, then they need separate judgments.

Therefore he would not sin.

Look, sin is disobedience of God. God can't disobey Himself, therefore Sin is impossible for God. This is what you should have said. What you've actually said is symptomatic of your misunderstanding.

Then would present this vessel which was capable of sin, yet didn't sin, as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Two problems here. First, the vessel in itself, the body, could be judged separately from the spirit, because there are human bodies in the real world with no higher brain functions and equally incapable of sin. What you are sacrificing here is a body, not what we consider to be ourselves, the spirit. Seriously, if you want to work in duality, you have to maintain it consistently and not switch back and forth as it is convenient for you. Generally we don't consider the body alone having capacity for sin, rather it is the spirit. A body without a spirit is just a tool and would lie inactive on the floor without a spirit, and incapable of sin.

The other problem is sacrifice, which is the giving up of something with no expectation of getting it back. The fact that Jesus supposedly returned is Indian Giving. Forgive that I can't think of anything else to call it.

Crucifying the flesh once and for all.

I'm sorry, don't you believe Jesus rose again? If He did, sure it's possible to crucify Him again. Being the point of sacrifice, that He should not have risen again.

Conquering death for those who will receive it.

Death is still around. Receive what?

The way couldn't get any narrower.

I certainly feel very lonely. You certainly couldn't have more people with you.

As you understanding me would require a gift given to you from the one you attack continually.

I already understand you because I was once like you. The problem ever has been you ignoring and not trying to understand me.

Your arguments which I avoid are not to save my own rear end.

You admit ignoring me. Progress! There's nothing really at stake here. When I go to school I don't lose anything give up anything or sacrifice anything.

It's because I already know from more past experiences than you can shake a stick at. That the outcome will be totally vain.

You still lack my experience, you still don't have enough. Sometimes I think it vain to talk to you, but that doesn't make it so.

Except a man be given to see certain things, forget it.

This statement, by you, is a repetition of your sabotage of the discussion. Stop it. I already see what you see. You don't see what I see. You even admit it.

Otherwise we'll just dance around in circles forever.

Nonsense, I think we've made a bit of progress. Reason to continue.

C

Originally posted by Columbus
Why, why, why don't you just answer or acknowledge me?

Umm, I did concerning the Immortal/Mortal thing. That seems to be your main ammunition. Or what you feel is ammunition.

Originally posted by Columbus
Why should anyone concern himself about his suit wearing out if he can easily get another?

It only needed to be done once.

Originally posted by Columbus
By definition, God cannot sin, however how can God be God if he cannot control a simple human body.

You've lost me here. That was the whole point. Him ruling/controling over the flesh, not sinning and presenting his son as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Originally posted by Columbus
You lose distinction of whether you are using duality here. If you are going to invoke duality you have to maintain consistency, otherwise it's not clear whether the body is guilty or the spirit, then they need separate judgments.

No, No, No, hang on just a minute. The flesh side being capable of sin, but NOT guilty. The whole point of the thing is him being blameless.

Being fully governed by the eternal spirit made him not sin. Because he was internally GOD. Yet the flesh taken on was perishable and was crucified. He himself dwelling in that flesh was the sacrifice for sin.

It's something a simply mortal man cannot do. Because we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD. As it's written.

Originally posted by Columbus
Look, sin is disobedience of God. God can't disobey Himself, therefore Sin is impossible for God. This is what you should have said. What you've actually said is symptomatic of your misunderstanding.

No, No again. The flesh has nothing to do with GOD, directly. The corruption of the flesh is handed down by our earthly fathers. You and I both and everyone else are born corrupt.

That same flesh nature which manifested itself in Adam as a result of the fall and handed down through him to us. Has nothing to do with GOD directly. It's why a man must be born again to see and enter the kingdom of GOD.

Adam sinned and as a result, then went on to reproduce corrupt man. Man wasn't made corrupt. Man corrupted himself.

So as the story goes. GOD sent forth his son into the world, in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet knew no sin. He conquered the flesh and death, so that those who believe in him will not taste it.

Originally posted by Columbus
Two problems here. First, the vessel in itself, the body, could be judged separately from the spirit, because there are human bodies in the real world with no higher brain functions and equally incapable of sin.

No, because you are viewing them as two separate people, yet they aren't. They are one. Separate that which runs the body and you have yourself a corpse.

Originally posted by Columbus
What you are sacrificing here is a body, not what we consider to be ourselves, the spirit.

Ahh but it is yourself. When you die, your body dies. You live on. At which point you will be sent to one of two places. Depending on whose you are. It's not you that die, it's the body. As they put it in the OT. Your body gives up the Ghost. The Ghost is YOU.

We ourselves are an eternal/mortal combination in that sense, yet we are corrupt.

Originally posted by Columbus
Generally we don't consider the body alone having capacity for sin, rather it is the spirit.

Ahhh, but the flesh is at war with the spirit. The spirit knows right and wrong and the flesh overpowers it.

Originally posted by Columbus
A body without a spirit is just a tool and would lie inactive on the floor without a spirit, and incapable of sin.

True, yet picture this tool when animated it then attacks and fights against the animator attempting to destroy it and itself.

The tool in it's proper working order wouldn't do such a thing, but since it's corrupt it does.

Originally posted by Columbus
The other problem is sacrifice, which is the giving up of something with no expectation of getting it back.

Who's definition? A sacrifice is a payment for sin. About the simplest way to put it anyway.

Originally posted by Columbus
The fact that Jesus supposedly returned is Indian Giving. Forgive that I can't think of anything else to call it.

Anything but. No he gave himself so that those who believe on him live. His spirit dwells in those who are his.

Originally posted by Columbus
I'm sorry, don't you believe Jesus rose again? If He did, sure it's possible to crucify Him again. Being the point of sacrifice, that He should not have risen again.

Yes he rose again. That's the whole point. Without the resurrection our faith is vain.

The only problem is it will be impossible to disprove it to someone he is living in, because he testifies to his existence.

Originally posted by Columbus
Death is still around. Receive what?

Yes. People die all the time.

Originally posted by Columbus
I already understand you because I was once like you. The problem ever has been you ignoring and not trying to understand me.

I do understand you. You've never known the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You and I think a lot alike. It seems you despise religion(s) about as much as I do.

Originally posted by Columbus
You admit ignoring me. Progress!

Yes quite deliberately might I add! It's not some brain washing result. I'm simply ignoring you.

Originally posted by Columbus
You still lack my experience, you still don't have enough.

Well your shoes would be an interesting pair to stand in I'm sure. However I'm not in them. I do perceive them though.

Originally posted by Columbus
Sometimes I think it vain to talk to you, but that doesn't make it so.

Well I didn't mean vain all the way around. I meant as far as getting you to see what you don't have.

Yes I have yet to run up on anything in life that hasn't been used for the good. One way or another.

Originally posted by Columbus
Reason to continue.

Oh dear.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Umm, I did concerning the Immortal/Mortal thing.

What, just now? This is from months ago. And you failed again.

It only needed to be done once.

It didn't need to be done at all. It was presumptuous and accomplished nothing.

You've lost me here. That was the whole point. Him ruling/controling over the flesh, not sinning...

What is the point of creating something to pretend to sacrifice it to yourself then create it again as if you never sacrificed it? What could God genuinely sacrifice that He could not create again? Sacrifice is impossible for God, either as an act upon anyone or anything or upon Himself.

The flesh side being capable of sin, but NOT guilty.

The flesh, the body, vessel, tool, without spirit? Who puts guns on trial?

Being fully governed by the eternal spirit made him not sin.

You're describing another person/spirit, separate from Jesus, held prisoner in the brain with no ability to act out any Free Will. Jesus The Christ Spirit is incapable of Sin, Jesus the other (man-)spirit of the body was, and the Body of Jesus, the instrument can't be.

Yet the flesh taken on was perishable and was crucified. He himself dwelling in that flesh was the sacrifice for sin.

Destroy the suit, pointless. No real harm was done to the one wearing it.

It's something a simply mortal man cannot do.

It's a whole other argument: the pointlessness of blood-sacrifice in general. We can just forgive, yet you deny God can do this simple thing, needing this whole Sacrifice business.

The corruption of the flesh is handed down by our earthly fathers.

You mean Original Sin? That's in my SIG too, you haven't acknowledged.

Has nothing to do with GOD directly.

He created it and it exists within Him. Unlike an engineer God cannot be unaware of a flaw in his creation, therefore He could not create it.

Adam sinned..

No. See my SIG.

He conquered the flesh and death, so that those who believe in him will not taste it.

Death still exists.

No, because you are viewing them as two separate people, yet they aren't. They are one. Separate that which runs the body and you have yourself a corpse.

You are the one that said there is something in it that can be guilty. If it is neither Jesus the Christ Spirit or the body (the gun), what is it?

Ahhh, but the flesh is at war with the spirit. The spirit knows right and wrong and the flesh overpowers it.

Actually, the flesh knows right and wrong, this is testable and proven. The spirit sets the goals of the body and for that spirit to achieve its goals is to use the body. The body has no goals. When I hold a gun, the gun does not war with me to cause me to kill. There is no duality in reality and the same can be said about the interaction of software and hardware. Once does not exist without the other.

True, yet picture this tool when animated it then attacks and fights against the animator attempting to destroy it and itself.

The gun gets up and starts shooting people by it's own will.

The tool in it's proper working order wouldn't do such a thing, but since it's corrupt it does.

It never happens because it is absurd. Corruption is an unnecessary property that adds nothing to the description of reality. You can say all of reality is corrupt, but there is no way to test this because nothing real is not corrupt.

A sacrifice is a payment for sin.

A payment promptly taken back in the Resurrection. To genuinely pay, you can not take the payment back.

Anything but. No he gave himself so that those who believe on him live. His spirit dwells in those who are his.

There are many problems with this. You are saying the Sacrifice was to us, a payment to us, which we keep, and we are bought, again returning the payment since everything we have is His anyway, which doubly proves my point that God can't really sacrifice anything or even lose us to.

Without the resurrection our faith is vain.

Yet if He is Resurrected, he is NOT Sacrificed, only tortured.

...impossible to disprove it to someone he is living in, because he testifies to his existence.

Testimony isn't proof, it can be perjured. If He is Risen, it is a simple matter to prove. The fact that it isn't done is proof.

Yes. People die all the time.

Nothing changed in reality. Again, receive what?

You've never known the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Yes, I have. That is how I am able to correct you. For example, you didn't state the correct reason why Sin is impossible for God. Also in the same vein, Sacrifice is also Impossible.

You and I think a lot alike. It seems you despise religion(s) about as much as I do.

You forgot what religion is. It is the number of people that profess a belief, like you. Me and my friends said the exact same words and held the same beliefs.

I'm simply ignoring you.

It isn't simple ignorance, it's willful and harmful, and consequently, evil.

Well your shoes would be an interesting pair to stand in I'm sure. However I'm not in them. I do perceive them though.

I wouldn't wish it on you. You really have no idea. Why I'm here is so others don't have to suffer as I did.

Well I didn't mean vain all the way around. I meant as far as getting you to see what you don't have.

I had what you have. It's just pretend.

Yes I have yet to run up on anything in life that hasn't been used for the good. One way or another.

Yes, the trauma that I experienced was horrible, but I keep it and use it to help other.

Im beginning to see a pattern here, and Im going to post a few statements for the record:

Originally posted by Columbus
You aren't seeing what I'm seeing. I'm showing you and you're ignoring it.

Originally posted by Columbus
The problem ever has been you ignoring and not trying to understand me.

Originally posted by Columbus
Stop it. I already see what you see. You don't see what I see.

What Im seeing is someone who doesnt see, but is perhaps undergoing a strengthening. He is a student by admission:

Originally posted by Columbus
When I go to school I don't lose anything give up anything or sacrifice anything.

You give up your lack of knowledge for the gain of understanding.

If I didnt know any better, Id swear the Word is alive in you Columbus. I read through your posts, and more evident is your understanding or the way of Christ. While you proclaim to be an atheist, I would hope that you strive to be a person of kindness and caring.

That being said...

Originally posted by Columbus
Look, sin is disobedience of God. God can't disobey Himself, therefore Sin is impossible for God. This is what you should have said. What you've actually said is symptomatic of your misunderstanding.

If I didnt know any better...Id swear he was giving testimony..

Peace Bro..Irons in the forge.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
What Im seeing is someone who doesnt see, but is perhaps undergoing a strengthening. He is a student by admission:

I was Saved. WiseSheep knows this. I've had extensive discussions with him in the past. They basically consist of him telling me the "he who sees" nonsense that sabotages the discussion. WiseSheep repeatedly ignores me and doesn't answer. It's not a matter of me not seeing. It's a matter of WiseSheep not responding.

I can tell you everything about being Christian. My questions are the ones Christians can't answer and that's the point. WiseSheep can't answer me. Sooner or later he has to acknowledge that.

You give up your lack of knowledge for the gain of understanding.

I give up my lack of money for wealth. Yeah, right.

Id swear the Word is alive in you Columbus.

What is in you is in me. It's just not what you think because you stop short at faith and don't proceed any further. Only then you will know what I know.

...your understanding or the way of Christ.

YES! I understand Christ! I was Saved! It is as I keep telling you. But let's not leave it at that.

While you proclaim to be an atheist, I would hope that you strive to be a person of kindness and caring.

First, atheists are far more kind and caring than Christians because we do not do it for the Glory of God nor to lift up the church nor even to promote atheism. We do it to help people who are suffering. I am sickened by the Church using charity as self-promotion and even worse, Christians who do nothing and ride the reputation of charity while outright saying that charity is not necessary because it is only for the flesh and not the spirit.

And besides that, being an atheist doesn't describe me worth a damn. This board has many atheists and most of them, maybe all, have never known the experience of Jesus Christ in their hearts as I have.

If I didnt know any better...Id swear he was giving testimony.

It comes from experience. That's exactly what it is.

C

Originally posted by Columbus
What, just now? This is from months ago. And you failed again.

It depends on who's glasses you see through.

Originally posted by Columbus
It didn't need to be done at all. It was presumptuous and accomplished nothing.

Yes it was rather presumptuous, considering it was finished before the foundation of the world.

Originally posted by Columbus
What is the point of creating something to pretend to sacrifice it to yourself then create it again as if you never sacrificed it? What could God genuinely sacrifice that He could not create again? Sacrifice is impossible for God, either as an act upon anyone or anything or upon Himself.

He can do whatever he wants to do. There was nothing pretend about it. It was very real, and only needed to be done once. Because it was done once.

Originally posted by Columbus
The flesh, the body, vessel, tool, without spirit? Who puts guns on trial?

Not quite comparable.

Originally posted by Columbus
You're describing another person/spirit, separate from Jesus, held prisoner in the brain with no ability to act out any Free Will. Jesus The Christ Spirit is incapable of Sin, Jesus the other (man-)spirit of the body was, and the Body of Jesus, the instrument can't be.

Two don't dwell in the same temple.

Originally posted by Columbus
Destroy the suit, pointless. No real harm was done to the one wearing it.

It would seem being beaten, nails driven through your limbs. Hung up on a tree until death. One certainly wouldn't figure that now would they.

Nobody will be able to point a finger at GOD and say, "well you're GOD, you haven't experienced what we have!" Yes he has. He's experienced life as a man and death as a man.

Originally posted by Columbus
We can just forgive, yet you deny God can do this simple thing, needing this whole Sacrifice business.

Well technically it was finished from the beginning. So what was already done, was what was done.

Originally posted by Columbus
You mean Original Sin? That's in my SIG too, you haven't acknowledged.

Oh, the "fraud" argument? If that argument holds weight. Then a case where one person is tricked into killing another. Simply proving the trickery should bring the dead back to life.

Originally posted by Columbus
He created it and it exists within Him.

Yes but he gave it a choice and it's consequences were engineered ahead of time.

Originally posted by Columbus
Death still exists.

Yes it does.

Originally posted by Columbus
You are the one that said there is something in it that can be guilty.

The flesh in a fallen man will overpower the spirit and cause them both to sin. We can't help it. It's natural, as you say "normal". Therefore we are all guilty.

Originally posted by Columbus
When I hold a gun, the gun does not war with me to cause me to kill.

It's not quite comparable as the gun doesn't become one with you and attempt to overpower you. Continuing to fight a nagging fight against you.

Originally posted by Columbus
The gun gets up and starts shooting people by it's own will.

The gun analogy doesn't work to great.

Originally posted by Columbus
You can say all of reality is corrupt, but there is no way to test this because nothing real is not corrupt.

Or nothing seen rather.

Originally posted by Columbus

A sacrifice is a payment for sin.

A payment promptly taken back in the Resurrection. To genuinely pay, you can not take the payment back.

He went back to pay us.

Originally posted by Columbus
There are many problems with this. You are saying the Sacrifice was to us, a payment to us, which we keep, and we are bought, again returning the payment since everything we have is His anyway, which doubly proves my point that God can't really sacrifice anything or even lose us to.

No wasn't a payment to us. It was a payment for us. Whether his or not everything is his.

Originally posted by Columbus
Yet if He is Resurrected, he is NOT Sacrificed, only tortured.

No, he simply is the first fruits of the first resurrection. More fruits follow, which will give this place quite a tremble.

Originally posted by Columbus
Testimony isn't proof, it can be perjured. If He is Risen, it is a simple matter to prove.

Well the easiest thing for me to say is let's wait 10,000 years and see. Of course I'd imagine a hundred or so would be as sufficient.

Originally posted by Columbus
The fact that it isn't done is proof.

It's done in me and in quite a few others. Hopefully more, but that's his work.

Originally posted by Columbus
Nothing changed in reality. Again, receive what?

A torn veil.

Originally posted by Columbus

You've never known the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Yes, I have. That is how I am able to correct you. For example, you didn't state the correct reason why Sin is impossible for God. Also in the same vein, Sacrifice is also Impossible.

There's quite a bigger difference between his house and a house of devils.

Originally posted by Columbus
You forgot what religion is. It is the number of people that profess a belief, like you. Me and my friends said the exact same words and held the same beliefs.

Religion is a man's works in order to approve himself before GOD, or con himself into thinking he can..

Originally posted by Columbus
It isn't simple ignorance, it's willful and harmful, and consequently, evil.

One man's evil may be another man's good.

Originally posted by Columbus
I had what you have. It's just pretend.

Good luck with that sir. He certainly didn't turn the rocks to bread now did he?

reply to post by Columbus

Originally posted by Columbus
I am sickened by the Church using charity as self-promotion and even worse, Christians who do nothing and ride the reputation of charity while outright saying that charity is not necessary because it is only for the flesh and not the spirit.

You and I walk the same path in terms of our observing the church in self promotion. I wrote this nearly 3 years ago...

A passage from a letter I wrote 3 years ago

It seems to me at times, the Church exists for the sake of the church. One merely needs to look at the Catholic Church and the jockeying for the position of the highest held to know that is isn’t about god’s word. Its about power and control.

While I do see this, I also see good people, of all ages, who put their pants on one leg at a time, and truly have good hearts. Those people are people like you, who will do good even when there is no reward.

You brought up a point I never even pondered. Christians who do nothing by justifying the charity as being for the flesh.

That is complete and utter tripe on their part. You know it and I know it.
Jesus was about the poor and the widow. He was about injustice.
Any person with an iota of compassion can see injustice if they merely look.

Originally posted by Columbus
And besides that, being an atheist doesn't describe me worth a damn. This board has many atheists and most of them, maybe all, have never known the experience of Jesus Christ in their hearts as I have.

Originally posted by Columbus
It comes from experience. That's exactly what it is.

Brother, continue your challenging with some respect, those that profess. In doing so you rise up within them questions that cause them to strengthen themselves and to ponder things that perhaps they had not considered.

I think you and I have more in common then you think. I accept your path for what it is, and you for who you are. When you recognize injustice, and point out something that formerly I never heard of or even thought of, it tells me that you have an eye that others do not have.

Were all brothers despite our differences. And it is in the persuit of justice, equality, and the righting of wrongs in the world, that we walk a common path, regardless of verbal profession.

Lets try to build something, rather then tear it down...

Peace




[edit on 27-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Sometimes, when a debate gets a little too pointed, and starts hurting or creating a large chasm between friendship then formerly existed, we need to learn to catch ourselves as we tend to alienate people.

This is a story lesser known about Jesus....

The situation was such that her husband had removed her from home as he felt that the teaching of Christ was against his belief...

Jesus said this to her:

Jesus Christ

The constant dropping of the water wears away the hardest stone. 19 The sweet and holy incense of a godly life will melt intolerance much quicker than the hottest flame, or harest blow. 20 Just wait a little time, and then go home with sympathy and love. Talk not of Christ, nor of the kingdom of the Holy One. 21 Just life a godly life; refrain from harshness in your speech, and you will lead your husband to the light. 22 And it was so.

Be like the dropping of water...

A Godly Life...

The Light will always be there...

Peace

[edit on 27-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by WiseSheep
It depends on who's glasses you see through.

Seeing Sabotage! I know you are comfortable with the answer in your heart, but that doesn't make it a genuine answer. I'm just helping you work it out until it's clear. Since it's not clear in your mind, you are the one not seeing.

Yes it was rather presumptuous, considering it was finished before the foundation of the world.

Historical time is not persistent. There is no past to go back to, so your view of God being omni-temporal is impossible.

He can do whatever he wants to do.

Exactly. He can take back His Promise too.

There was nothing pretend about it. It was very real, and only needed to be done once. Because it was done once.

Hold this thought: ONCE. Faith doesn't make things real. It justs makes you comfortable that you've got the answer without honestly investigating.

Not quite comparable.
Two don't dwell in the same temple.

Denial isn't an answer. You just eliminate possibilities, leaving me to assume you believe what's left.
Wherein is the possibility to commit Sin? The empty vessel or The Spirit of Jesus Christ?
You chose: the body-flesh. So the body is guilty, not the spirit, so why bother burning them with the spirits in them?

It would seem being beaten, nails driven through your limbs. Hung up on a tree until death. One certainly wouldn't figure that now would they.

These acts were committed upon the body-flesh. All die, some even more gruesome than this (the gruesomeness of it is crucial to brainwashing). You forget the resurrection, in which this is only torture. Don't you think the CIA or the Nazis haven't tortured people to death and resuscitated them? It's torture not Sacrifice. And in the eternal life, it is a infinitesimal blink of an eye. And Forgotten. What Promise?

"well you're GOD, you haven't experienced what we have!" Yes he has. He's experienced life as a man and death as a man.

No we couldn't because real death is annihilation and he can't experience that. Therefore his ability to suffer is a sham and an insult. He can only pretend, and mock us our genuine suffering, from His Ivory Tower. A moment of torture is nothing. Why can't you see that?

Well technically it was finished from the beginning. So what was already done, was what was done.

We can just forgive, yet you deny God can do this simple thing, needing this whole Sacrifice business. How does your response address what I am saying? Why not just forgive? Why Sacrifice?

Oh, the "fraud" argument? If that argument holds weight.

It still stands, as you have said nothing against it.

Then a case where one person is tricked into killing another. Simply proving the trickery should bring the dead back to life.

If grandma is tricked into giving her money to an MLM, the trickery should bring her money back? What?

Yes but he gave it a choice and it's consequences were engineered ahead of time.

What are we doing now, acting with free will, when everything was engineered from the beginning?

Death still exists.

Yes it does.

And?

The flesh in a fallen man will overpower the spirit and cause them both to sin. We can't help it. It's natural, as you say "normal". Therefore we are all guilty.

The spirit doesn't need flesh to be guilty. It's Victorian nonsense to claim that natural acts are contrary to God's will since God designed us with these purposes. Without lust, man and animals would have just gone promptly extinct.

It's not quite comparable as the gun doesn't become one with you and attempt to overpower you. Continuing to fight a nagging fight against you.

Well, you may feel at war with your instincts, but neither that makes instinct sin, since God created it in you, nor does it make you guilty since you fought against it in your defense with everything you had.

The gun analogy doesn't work to great.

Why not? Because you can't refute it? You are claiming that something is guilty and deserves punishment. Do you judge the body and spirit separately or treat the body as an instrument, like a gun? The body-flesh is guilty yet you want to punish the spirit.

Or nothing seen rather.

Seeing Sabotage! The issue is whether anything that is real is not corrupt. What have you got?

He went back to pay us.

Sacrifice is back to us again, payment to us? Flip-Flop!

No wasn't a payment to us. It was a payment for us. Whether his or not everything is his.

I'm His. Why bother with a worthless go-between like Christ? I can't be any more His than His. Not Satan has the power to take me from God's very grasp.

No, he simply is the first fruits of the first resurrection. More fruits follow, which will give this place quite a tremble.

But you said it only needed to be done ONCE. See above. Now suddenly we need more? Nonetheless, resurrection is only torture not sacrifice. Resurrection is a loan, sacrifice is a payment.

Well the easiest thing for me to say is let's wait 10,000 years and see. Of course I'd imagine a hundred or so would be as sufficient.

Why would we need to wait centuries into the future to verify something that happened in the past and technically should still be in the present?

It's done in me and in quite a few others. Hopefully more, but that's his work.

You have Jesus' resurrected physical body inside you? Well get some X-rays and let's take a look!

There's quite a bigger difference between his house and a house of devils.

This doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote. (Is there no :sigh: emoticon?)

Religion is a man's works in order to approve himself before GOD, or con himself into thinking he can.

Religion is independent of God, since there are more religions without a concept of god than with. A religion only exists when believers are organized.

One man's evil may be another man's good.

You know nothing of philosophy. It's a good place for you to start.

Good luck with that sir. He certainly didn't turn the rocks to bread now did he?

With what? Again, this doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote.

C

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
This is a story lesser known about Jesus....

Should we consider this text reliable? Or stick with the true inspiration?

Hard speeches do have their power. The WORD himself has the power to bring the dead to life. Raise them out of their graves.

Every now and then the dead hear his voice and live.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Should we consider this text reliable? Or stick with the true inspiration?

Does not water wear away the hardest of stone? Observe yea the Grand Canyon.

Do you base the reliability of the text on the validity of he who penned, or what is penned?

Jesus Christ
The sheep will know the shepard by his voice.

Do you think for a moment that Jesus will come repeating every word that was penned? Are there not Christians by the Millions doing that today?

Jesus replied to them, "The mystery about the kingdom of God has been given directly to you. To those on the outside, it is given in stories.That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
The sower soweth the word. ( Mustard Seed Parrable)

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The WORD himself has the power to bring the dead to life. Raise them out of their graves.

The proper amount of water solves a myriad of problems.

Water each according to their need

Peace


[edit on 27-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Does not water wear away the hardest of stone? Observe yea the Grand Canyon.

Yes, but I also have some rat poison here that contains some of the finest looking oats you have ever seen. But that won't stop it from killing you. Actually it will make it that much more enticing to approaching mouse.

Take the quran for example. It contains some truth. So does the gnostic and apocryphal material. Just enough bait to install the poison.

It just doesn't appear to be the healthiest thing for babies to lay a snare in their path. Of course he also knows how to preserve those who are his. And will.

As he said offenses must come, but woe to them by which they come.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
The sheep will know the shepard by his voice.

Amen, but we certainly don't want to place a trip wire before any of those now do we?

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Do you base the reliability of the text on the validity of he who penned, or what is penned?

The scribe and/or the prophet are nothing. It's the spirit who inspires.


Whosoever is in agreement with the son, has the father also.