An Important Message of Love

Here's a short clip on who Jesus Christ is.

Anyway, well I felt it was important enough to post here so....

" Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves "

My God this is so true.. The ones who beat christ were those ruff spirited cursing men.

Thanks for the link.

reply to post by WiseSheep


there's a mistake... it says that everyone believed in trinitarianism until the 19th century...
wrong. gnosticism clearly disagreed with that and it was there from the very beginnings of christianity.

now, i don't see a message of love, i see a message of intolerance. the bible isn't absolute 100% one interpretation. it's something open to multiple interpretation...

and then it gets worse to pure hatred. "demon possessed"
yeah... nevermind, i take it back. it's a message of hate.

...and they don't specifically mention what's wrong with the catholics..
he says "and the catholics" but never says what they're doing wrong.... especially since they are trinitarians...

[edit on 9/14/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
gnosticism clearly disagreed with that and it was there from the very beginnings of christianity.

What does gnosticism have to do with this subject?

What does christianity have to do with this subject?

Absolutely NOTHING.

Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of GOD. If a man is not born again, he will not see the kingdom of GOD.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
now, i don't see a message of love, i see a message of intolerance.

That which is of the flesh is flesh, that which is of the spirit is spirit.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the bible isn't absolute 100% one interpretation. it's something open to multiple interpretation...

If a sword is the protection of one, it ends up being the destruction of another.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and then it gets worse to pure hatred. "demon possessed"
yeah... nevermind, i take it back. it's a message of hate.

Hate doesn't bother to snatch a man from the fire.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
What does gnosticism have to do with this subject?

What does christianity have to do with this subject?

Absolutely NOTHING.

Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of GOD. If a man is not born again, he will not see the kingdom of GOD.

well... the person in the video makes a fallacious claim. he claims that trinitarianism was the only position in christianity until certain break off groups... non-trinitarian belief existed in the age where christians were still thrown to the lions, in the form of gnosticism. so it actually has everything to do with the conversation. either the guy is theologically uninformed or outright lying.

That which is of the flesh is flesh, that which is of the spirit is spirit.

nonsequiters don't qualify as answers.

this is hatred, sheer intolerance for a different interpretation of the same book.

If a sword is the protection of one, it ends up being the destruction of another.

again with another nonsequiter... see, you really don't have an argument here. there is your interpretation, and the thousands of others.

yours is no more true than any other position, yet you claim damnation for those that don't follow it.

Hate doesn't bother to snatch a man from the fire.

it is a message of hate. it's slanderously accusing people of being demon-possessed with absolutely no evidence to back it up

you know, for someone that claims to follow a relatively mellow and peaceful guy... you sure seem hell-bent on telling everyone who's damned and who isn't.

whatever happened to "judge not lest ye be judged"?
does it not apply to theology?

" Love thy God with all thy heart "

" love thy neigbor as thy self "

" Do good to them who hate you "


Thats true love.

But the world only loves their own. anybody with any dissagreance dislikes each other.

Its because only God has an unconditional love, he placed in dogs, that we dont have, and thats why he told us to love our enemies.

God is love, and grace is love.

Now madness.

If you slapped me in the face, I would still have a care for your soul because of his grace.

But ten years ago I would probably dislike you for the slightest difference. I had no grace back then.

peace/

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it is a message of hate. it's slanderously accusing people of being demon-possessed with absolutely no evidence to back it up

The evidence is in their fruit. Such as the madness in your soul.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you sure seem hell-bent on telling everyone who's damned and who isn't.

More like heaven-bent for those who hear and are healed.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
whatever happened to "judge not lest ye be judged"?

It's a life and death issue. Whatever measure a man uses, it'll be measured back to him on that day.

Those who reject the gospel or don't know him, are condemned already.

Those who reject the gospel or don't know him, are condemned already.

And I thought this was a message of love???

Heres a question for you guys.. Can you stop with all the killing, and fighting? You religious folks are messing it up for the rest of us!

I read the message loud and clear.

I made my 'choice' long ago.

I ask that the Lord forgive me of my sins, and allow me to continue on with my lifes journey...for the betterment of others and myself... and those who seek guidance.

It isn't a sin to 'want a better life' for others or oneself. It's only a 'sin' when we don't follow through our actions for over-all betterment for our brethern.

Faith....without 'actions' is dead. Period.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Hate doesn't bother to snatch a man from the fire.

Actually it does, as long as the hated is still needed for a purpose. (information, skills, blackmail, indecent needs, etc. etc.)

Originally posted by zysin5

Those who reject the gospel or don't know him, are condemned already.

And I thought this was a message of love???

Ahh, but it is. This is why it's offensive. It wasn't my intention originally, but it'll work out good this way.

The natural man confronted with the fact that he's condemned is offensive because he's guiltless in his own eyes.

Everyone alive has broken GOD's law which is conveniently written in them. Every man alive knows deep down in himself that he's done things that are not right, naturally. He then trying to justify himself, trying to build the mindset that he isn't "so" bad, says well I'm human, or "I'm" this or that. No every man alive is a sinner. Some have committed few, some many. Look at it this way. If one person has killed five people in his life and another killed one. Are they not both still murderers? If the authority declared the death sentence for a murderer. Would they both not be equal in that they'd be put to death after being tried and found guilty?

Jesus said if you've so much as hated your brother, you've murdered him in your heart, therefore you are a murder and the sentence will be rightly carried out on judgment day. All of that was to give us the standard of perfection and show us that we are so NOT IT.


What did Jesus mean when he told us that if we don't believe that he is "I AM", that we will die in our sins? Because you have no sacrifice for sin. The gift of salvation is given to you by him, IF you accept it when drawn to the understanding. HE won't force it on you, though some of us will try because we don't want to see you burn. It's not out of hatred.


Since his word is truth and he declared his law by his own word, there was a need to fulfill his own law. That he did through Jesus Christ. Not only the law did he fulfill but many things he had spoken through the prophets concerning himself. That we may know that HE IS.

Unless a man know what Jesus Christ is I AM by knowing him. He'll die in his sins.

Originally posted by zysin5
Heres a question for you guys.. Can you stop with all the killing, and fighting? You religious folks are messing it up for the rest of us!

If his kingdom was of this world we would fight for it. If any man fight for the kingdoms of the world. Who is he fighting for?

Originally posted by WiseSheep
The evidence is in their fruit. Such as the madness in your soul.

well... there doesn't really seem to be "evidence in their fruit"
and there is no madness in my soul... it's a label, something i heard in a song and thought flowed well enough to use as my name on here

hell, i have no soul nor do i have any madness. i currently am quite happy and well-balanced.

i don't think you're a sheep nor do i think you're wise simply because you're "wise sheep"

More like heaven-bent for those who hear and are healed.

no, this is about you being right and others being wrong. you don't care that you are just as likely to be wrong as any other view on the issue.

It's a life and death issue. Whatever measure a man uses, it'll be measured back to him on that day.

oh... so hypocricy is ok in a life or death issue... i see.

Those who reject the gospel or don't know him, are condemned already.

what ever happened to the all loving, omnibenevolent, and just god?
surely such a being doesn't have such self-esteem and ego issues..

i guess you're just like carl sagan said, you're bent on keeping your "little god"

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well... there doesn't really seem to be "evidence in their fruit"

Hmm. Purposefully bringing in damnable heresies and denying the blood that bought one is some pretty thorny crap, if I may say so myself.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and there is no madness in my soul... it's a label, something i heard in a song and thought flowed well enough to use as my name on here

The heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it? It flows well.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
hell, i have no soul nor do i have any madness. i currently am quite happy and well-balanced.

Interesting.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i don't think you're a sheep nor do i think you're wise simply because you're "wise sheep"

A sheep isn't necessarily wise in and of himself who hears the shepherd and follows him. He was just doing what he was created to do. The goats would rather foolishly feed themselves to wolves.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
no, this is about you being right and others being wrong.

OK, if this is about winning an argument. Please ask yourself what in the world would I profit? What is in it for me?

It's not about me or me being right and in this case it may not be about you in and of yourself either.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you don't care that you are just as likely to be wrong as any other view on the issue.

Do you know your father? If I were to come to you with statements about your father contrary to who he is and you opposed those statements.

Would you even waste the time hearing me tell you that you don't care that you are just as likely to be wrong as any other view concerning your father?

You'd probably be kind enough to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and move on.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
oh... so hypocricy is ok in a life or death issue... i see.

The gospel will be heard so that men will be without excuse.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
what ever happened to the all loving, omnibenevolent, and just god?

Let's say you know someone who has murdered. Possibly murdered someone close to you. You are in court witnessing the trial of this murderer.

Would the judge be all loving if he said to the killer, well I love you and because I love so much, I will release you?

No he would not be all loving. Because if he were all all loving, he would take both into consideration the justice which should be served for the loved ones of the victim and love for the society which he released a killer back into.

Now, would the judge be just if he did the same? NO.

That's where repentance (change) comes in. Would GOD be just if he let a thief into his kingdom? Only if the thief was no longer a thief when he entered.

Unless a man repent he will be burned.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you're bent on keeping your "little god"

I'm sure he'll be gracious enough to let you stare into those flaming eyes of his on that day and explain to him just how little he is.

Men speak such swelling words to be comparable to a mere grain of sand on his footstool.

reply to post by zysin5


This video looks like a rant to me. On the Christians Its showed the catholics and Fred Phelps.

Fred Phelps is nothing but a grumpy old man who has hate in his heart who mindlessly rants about gays. Thats not a christian. They are not with us nor are they christians. They riches you speak of are by corrupted greedy tv evangelists. Not us.

The catholics are the rich folk who worship Mary- who's now trapped in a sex scandel who should be ashamed of themselves and in the process of paying of their hugh 660 millions dollars ordered by the courts.

Don't get confused on who Christians are. I'm one and I'm not rich. Nor do I live in a big mansion nor do I have 5 private planes. I can't even fly a plane for that matter.

Do not condemn the Christians yet. We don't worship Mary as the catholics do.





[edit on 9/15/2007 by Leyla]

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Hmm. Purposefully bringing in damnable heresies and denying the blood that bought one is some pretty thorny crap, if I may say so myself.

they're only heresies from your point of view. the only objective heresy in christianity would be a denial that jesus, god, and the holy spirit exist at all.

The heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it? It flows well.

wow, very vague ad hom there.

Interesting.

yes, a well balanced and happy atheist is quite interesting, just like any other human being on the planet is actually quite interesting.

OK, if this is about winning an argument. Please ask yourself what in the world would I profit? What is in it for me?

quite easy, ego boost and reassurance that what you believe is true.

It's not about me or me being right and in this case it may not be about you in and of yourself either.

well... for me this is about something that's quite hateful and ranting.

Do you know your father? If I were to come to you with statements about your father contrary to who he is and you opposed those statements.

okay... your comparison fails. you don't actually know your deity. you have writings about your deity that are open to a wide spectrum of interpretation.

Would you even waste the time hearing me tell you that you don't care that you are just as likely to be wrong as any other view concerning your father?

again, it fails. i have years of personal experience of him, i've directly asked him questions that he's responded to directly, and he's actually written stuff (unlike your deity, who seems to work by proxy)

You'd probably be kind enough to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and move on.

however, this comparison fails. you don't actually know the being in question.

The gospel will be heard so that men will be without excuse.

ugh.
your christians... so unlike your christ.
-gandhi

Unless a man repent he will be burned.

..ok, what have i to repent for?
i live my life to do as much help and as little harm to others as possible.

I'm sure he'll be gracious enough to let you stare into those flaming eyes of his on that day and explain to him just how little he is.

...why are you anthropomorphizing an all powerful being?

Men speak such swelling words to be comparable to a mere grain of sand on his footstool.

again... i'm not quite convinced your deity exists...
but this isn't the issue. the issue is that the message posted isn't one of love, it's one of intolerance to other interpretation of belief.

it's a fear that one's own interpretation might be wrong
a fear that leads to an anger that others don't believe it
this anger manifests itself as "heavenbent" quests to convert others for the supposed reason of saving their souls

Yes that video points to the extreamists on all sides...
Hate to break it to you, but those extreamists speak for you guys..

Like it or not, the good people like yourselfs feed into the power hungry, loonies in charge...

Sorry if you dont like the way I see it.. But religion is not helping keeping the peace..

And yes I understand all about the Phelps family, I did a a term paper on them, and understand they are Bapist, and do not reflect the nature of most people.. However, religion has nothing to do with Love or peace..

You claim you would all fight for your God...

I dont think thats what God had in mind... When you come back as a worm next time around you wont have to worry about it there...

I just know I can be a good person, without the WILL of GOD..
But by the WIll of my own good heart!!!

You dont need a GOD to be a good person...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
quite easy, ego boost and reassurance that what you believe is true.

Hmm, yea see below..

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
okay... your comparison fails. you don't actually know your deity. you have writings about your deity that are open to a wide spectrum of interpretation.

You don't actually know your father. You have the testimony of people to tell you he's your father. You might even have a document that some folks wrote up years ago testifying of it. But you don't actually know your father.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
again, it fails. i have years of personal experience of him, i've directly asked him questions that he's responded to directly, and he's actually written stuff (unlike your deity, who seems to work by proxy)

If every word your father spoke was truth and was bound to come to pass. Do you not think that he would weigh his words highly and would be less likely to speak directly to everybody?

In that case he would probably say what he had to say while having it written down and that's it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
however, this comparison fails. you don't actually know the being in question.

You don't actually know your father.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ugh.
your christians... so unlike your christ.
-gandhi

He wouldn't have sight as to what a christian is. Just as you. All you see is a book and head knowledge. There's no salvation in head knowledge. Salvation is in Jesus. He is the life. Many know about him yet don't know him.

Example. Say you studied all about George Bush and knew every detail about him. Would that then make you part of his family? If you were to then manage to knock on the white house door, would he then let you in as he would his son?

Many will say LORD, LORD and he will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Depart from me.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
..ok, what have i to repent for?
i live my life to do as much help and as little harm to others as possible.

Did you mention hypocrisy a while ago?

Based on your occupation here, you live your life to make a massive effort to destroy as many as possible. Attempting to divert them from the truth.

What do you have to repent for? Do you think the creator would give one the gift sight who's heart is to attempt to destroy what's his?

If you knew a man were a thief at heart and not feeling guilty enough to make effort to change, would you trust him with all your money? Would you even trust him with a couple dollars? Maybe, but not all that you have.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
...why are you anthropomorphizing an all powerful being?

It's who he is.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
again... i'm not quite convinced your deity exists...

Would a king waste his time with one who intentionally sought to be a murderer of his people?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it's one of intolerance to other interpretation of belief.

Intolerance? Not really. People can believe what they want to believe. The true love of GOD allows for that. Free will to accept him or reject him.

It's just like what you believe. That's your choice. The question is what is the force that's driving you to franticly attack the truth of GOD?

There was really no need for you to spark this entire dialog. Was it? So who's driving you?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it's a fear that one's own interpretation might be wrong
a fear that leads to an anger that others don't believe it
this anger manifests itself as "heavenbent" quests to convert others for the supposed reason of saving their souls

You are actually right on that based on what you have been given. The natural mind reasons that pretty well. The whole thing with what you see as christianity is a mixed up mess. Some folks must have came along and got the wild idea to teach, or attempt to teach the flesh of the spirit.

What we have is a wretched mess called "christianity" made up of a lot of dead head knowledge.

MIMS isn't attacking truth: he's trying to make sense of this delusion that someone could know a sky fairy better than he knows his own biological, non-mythological father.

Calling MIMS a hypocrite is the pot calling the kettle black. I hear all this "message of love" dreck then see you call names and make nasty allegations.

But of course, this is a usual tactic when people don't have a logical argument to points well-made, they get personal and attack on that level, hoping to distract from the original discussion.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
MIMS isn't attacking truth:

Yes it was, well not so much an error of mine, but well telling one they are doing something they don't even know they are doing is hard to understand.

He doesn't even know that's what he is doing. He's simply doing what's natural.

I'd have been the same way, maybe worse once upon a time.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
he's trying to make sense of this delusion that someone could know a sky fairy better than he knows his own biological, non-mythological father.

Think of the delusion as you see it as a protection mechanism a divine one might I add which can only be bypassed with faith.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Calling MIMS a hypocrite is the pot calling the kettle black.

Yes there are always better things to say.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
I hear all this "message of love" dreck then see you call names and make nasty allegations.

What's so nasty about divine righteous justice being served? Unless it's in the eyes of the lawless.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
But of course, this is a usual tactic when people don't have a logical argument to points well-made,

Points well made by an adult to an adult, in some cases seem foolish to a child. An adult may take advantage of a conversation with a child to target an audience of adults.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
they get personal and attack on that level, hoping to distract from the original discussion.

When pierced by a sword it's rather painful. Some grow thorns, some find that it's the power of GOD.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
You don't actually know your father. You have the testimony of people to tell you he's your father. You might even have a document that some folks wrote up years ago testifying of it. But you don't actually know your father.

...no, i do know my father. i've almost every day of my life in the same house as him. there's an uncanny resemblance, and the DNA would match up were you to do a test.

If every word your father spoke was truth and was bound to come to pass. Do you not think that he would weigh his words highly and would be less likely to speak directly to everybody?

ah.. special pleading. "god doesn't talk to me because it would be irresponsible for him to talk to mortals"
...let's see if i'm right.

In that case he would probably say what he had to say while having it written down and that's it.

yep, i was right.
um... why wouldn't your god repeat it on a broadcast of american idol or some other medium that would get a lot of attention if it was so damn important?
i mean, honestly, why give all that stuff to a semi-nomadic desert tribe instead of the whole world?
it doesn't seem to make sense

You don't actually know your father.

that is just plain stupid....

He wouldn't have sight as to what a christian is. Just as you. All you see is a book and head knowledge. There's no salvation in head knowledge. Salvation is in Jesus. He is the life. Many know about him yet don't know him.

wow.. this is the first person i've seen saying gandhi wouldn't know what a christian was...
ya know, gandhi was a lot more like jesus than you'll ever be...

YET you'd cast him in hell because he didn't believe.
one of the greatest human beings in history, sentenced to punishment because his actions didn't matter compared to his beliefs...
at least to you.

Example. Say you studied all about George Bush and knew every detail about him. Would that then make you part of his family? If you were to then manage to knock on the white house door, would he then let you in as he would his son?

another stupid comparison.

Many will say LORD, LORD and he will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Depart from me.

actually.... they'll say "LORD"
and get know answer.

Did you mention hypocrisy a while ago?

yeah... actually, i'll mention it again.
gandhi is christ like... yet you'd say he goes to hell
now THAT'S hypocrisy.

Based on your occupation here, you live your life to make a massive effort to destroy as many as possible. Attempting to divert them from the truth.

no... i'm actually here to drive them towards truth and reasons
i'm not destroying them, i'm trying to help them turn on their own minds and start thinking for themselves instead of being in the thrall of ignorant, racist, misogynistic, genocidal myths.

What do you have to repent for? Do you think the creator would give one the gift sight who's heart is to attempt to destroy what's his?

you know... i did actually give your religion a legitimate shot. for 2 whole years. it's not like i've always been the atheist that i am now. i now know that truth comes from THINKING from REASON not from superstition and faith.

If you knew a man were a thief at heart and not feeling guilty enough to make effort to change, would you trust him with all your money? Would you even trust him with a couple dollars? Maybe, but not all that you have.

wow... that's an ad hom attack...
actually, you've made several.

It's who he is.

god wouldn't be a "he"
he implies male genitals... an all powerful god wouldn't need genitals unless there were other gods said being would need to reproduce with.

see.... little god, you're constraining things to your set human thinking patterns.

Would a king waste his time with one who intentionally sought to be a murderer of his people?

oh again with the BS ad hom.
once more i state, i gave your deity a shot, for 2 whole years i sought him/it/she/thingy... out.

Intolerance? Not really. People can believe what they want to believe. The true love of GOD allows for that. Free will to accept him or reject him.

but god won't TOLERATE the beliefs... at least according to you.
cause they get all crispy for the beliefs.

It's just like what you believe. That's your choice. The question is what is the force that's driving you to franticly attack the truth of GOD?

i'm not attacking the truth of god... i'm attacking the ignorance that is religion.
i don't know if god exists... neither do you
but, like all things that have no compelling case for their existence, i do not believe in it.

There was really no need for you to spark this entire dialog. Was it? So who's driving you?

...the idiocy and hatred in the video is what sparked it.

You are actually right on that based on what you have been given. The natural mind reasons that pretty well. The whole thing with what you see as christianity is a mixed up mess. Some folks must have came along and got the wild idea to teach, or attempt to teach the flesh of the spirit.

no..
i know what christianity is... pretty much every form of christianity except for a few WAAAY out there wacky ones.

What we have is a wretched mess called "christianity" made up of a lot of dead head knowledge.

yeah... that's called the bible.