Bible corrupts

I briefly mentioned this on a previous post, but upon further consideration I feel I should expound a little more so as to get back to the subject of the Bible corrupting. This is my personnal narrative on the subject:
I was raised Southern Baptist. When I was 2 my parents divorced. Seven years later, they re-married ( each other). We committed ourselves, as a family, to following "our Lord Jesus Christ" believing that would keep our family together. My dad was in the Army at that time and we were stationed in Belgium. We attended the local Baptist church right off base that had a largely American congregation. When I was about 11 we met another Baptist family, but they didn't attend any church. They introduced is to the "Missionary Baptist" denomination. Missionary Baptists are a little different in that they believe in the doctrine of election, or pre-destination: the idea that God chooses who will be saved, because man, if left to his own free will, cannot choose God, due to that whole "original sin" thing. There are many passages in the Bible that speak of election ( grab a concordance and check it out ), and if you're interested, read the works of John Calvin. Missionary Baptists are a relatively small denomination, and there were no churches like that in the area. After much prayer and Bible study, we as a family decided to stop attending the church we had been going to ( because we now believed those free will doctrines to be false ) and started having regular family Bible studies instead. The family that "converted" us to this brand of Baptist gave us several boxes of cassette tapes of sermons from one of the largest ( membership around 300 ) Missionary Baptist churches back in the States. We listened to a sermon at every meal. At the end of my dad's tour in Belgium, again after much prayer and Bible study, we felt God was calling us to move to Kentucky and attend this church, Bryan's Station Baptist Church. Most of our extended family lived in Michigan, so this move was a literal leap of faith. The church taught the literal translation of the Bible, considering those who take the Bible to be figurative heretics. We eanestly followed all of the Bibles teachings, like the church taught. Some of my favorites were: "modest dress", meaning I only wore pants, not shorts ( lest anyones lust after my bony legs!), my mother only wore dresses, because pants were to "form fitting". The women also wore headcoverings ( basically little lace doylies on their heads ) while in church so that "the angels looking down would not lust". And, of course, we did not celebrate Christmas, Easter, or (heaven forbid!) Halloween, because these were all Catholic hollidays that compromised true Christianity with pagan beliefs. Besides that, the Bible doesn't tell us to remember Christ's birth, and his death, burial, and resurection were remembered when we took the Lord's Supper ( "this do in remembrance of me"). There were many strict practices ( straight and narrow, now!) but, suffice it to say, my family, even more so than most of the other members, were as strict as, well as strict as you can imagine. People in my neighborhood nicknamed us the Cleavers, although phrases like "golly-gee" were looked down upon by us due to their being euphamisms for taking the Lord's name in vain. After 4 years we stopped attending the church, due to some doctrinal differences. My family studied their Bibles tirelessly, and my dad became convinced that one of the churches teachings were not consistent with a strict interpretation of the scriptures. That's when I really started questioning things. How could God call us to this church ( in this hot, muggy, craphole of a state!) and then call us to not go to this particular church? We attended a different Baptist Church, but it was only a matter of time before my dad felt there was a doctrinal discrepancy there, too. A year later, my parents divorced. (please read my next post)

(continued from previous post, bear with me, I swear I'm almost finished!)

I truly believe that my family could not communicate openly enough due to our zealous practices, and restrictions. My mother felt obligated to follow the lead of her husband, as the Bible instructs, until she just could not take it anymore. My mother is a godly woman, but, I believe our restrictive lifestyle inhibited open and honest ( and necessary ) communication. It was all about church and the Bible and whatever our current interpretation was. I believe that it caused unbearable stress in my family.

Does the Bible corrupt? That's probably not fair to say, but, one must interpret the Bible for oneself, and having studied so much and seeing so many different possible interpretations ( and like I've said before, prayer for guidance always preceded and followed Bible readings ), I came to the conclusion that it's all open to interpretation: literal, figurative, or not at all.
Another breaking point for me was hearing my long time pastor at Bryan's Station, explain his "literal" interpretation of ( I believe it was Luke ch. 7 ) Christs message of non-judgement, "Judge not lest ye be judged". At the end of the 45 min sermon, his conclusion was that Christ was actually telling us to judge, which that church did very well.

Where was the Love? The Unconditional Love? Heard the words constantly, but never saw it practiced. Our definition of Love was to point out where everybody was wrong. And that is where I believe one could say the Bible ( but really, Religion ) corrupts. A persons relationship with God is personnal, and no man has the right to judge it.

I feel closer to God now ( not being a Christian and being open to other types of spirituality ) and feel that unconditional love of God. And I don't mean that egotistically, or that I'm great or anything, just that I'm at peace within myself. Free from the chains of the Law, much like Christ said we are.

One last note. I refer to the Bible a lot, but as you've probably guessed, do not take it to be infallible or even always literally true. ( Mostly I reference it for the Christians out there.) That doesn't mean it doesn't serve God's purpose, just like other "holy" texts ( even if they're not Christian ) still serve God's purpose. I would go so far as to say, it's impossible to NOT serve God's purpose, due to the infinite nature of God. Also, saying that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God because God tells us in the Bible that it is the inerrant Word of God is simply circular reasoning. I know there's gotta be a creationist out there who objects to fossil dating for the same reason. It would be like me saying my words are true because God told me, and then write that down and use it as evidence in my favor. The ill effects of religion ( as mentioned in several previous posts: war, genocide, slavery, etc ) are due to mankind's dogmatic insistence that their interpretation is the only Truth.

reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim


I would have made note of certain things you've said to comment on, but you wrote so much. Truely, religion is mans way of trying to reach God. I believe Christianity can be summed up as Gods way of reaching man. All religion can be grouped in two categories: Works salvation and salvation by grace (unmerited favor). I say this because almost every known religion (I think I've heard there are around 3,000+) has some state, reward, place you go to if you do some act according to that religions teachings. Catholics for instance believe in good works among many other things give you a chance to get to heaven, but you can't know for sure. There is only one Christianity though. The gospel is plain and clear. Gospel being good news, the good news being that God himself, came in the form of man (Christ Jesus), died, was burried and resurrected the third day (and seen by more than 500 - 1 Corinthians 15). Ephesians 2:8-9 I referrenced earlier talks about salvation being Gods gift to those who believe through Faith in his Son, and not by works.

You mentioned being in churches that believe in election by God. The Bible has many verses to support the idea (Calvanism) but not in complete context of the whole (the Bible as a whole). One could say the Bible contradicts itself, but that is if you believe thats what the Bible is truely teaching. The Bible says that "Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost." He also says that he would have "that all should be saved." The problem is when we apply our own logic and understanding and say, well God knows everything... so therefore God knows who is going to be saved, and who is not. This is true, we call his attribute omniscience. Yet God is clear to say that despite knowing the end from the beginning, he loves all (John 3:16) and would have that all should be saved. The problem is we all have a choice, and some choose to flat out reject the gift God has for those who turn to him (Romans 6:23).

Certainly you have been through a lot, and I admire you being strong, and not having bitterness towards God in all you've been through. It's easy to question God, but the Bible says in Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. One can be saved and not a Christian. A Christian though is one that walks after the ways of Christ (I believe thats ultimately what God would desire for all).

I won't get into the Bible bit, because age of docs, location of discovery, authors, language and translation are again areas where we can beat the Bible to death, and make about as much progress as a car with no wheels. I do believe that God can not lie (as the Bible says), and I do believe his promise that he would preserve his Word. I also believe that not every Bible out there is Gods word, as many have been tampered with (you take from one text your likely not to have as many problems as taking from multiple). Regardless I fall back to the belief that God will preserve his word. Amazing how the Bible has stood the test of time, with 66 books, 40+ authors, over a 6,000 year span of recorded Biblical time (from creation to present, with the support of geneology). God is good, all the time.

reply to post by Aeronautical7


"One can be saved and not be a Christian"

Well said, and exactly my point. Now, we can argue what being saved means or how to be a Christian, but, regardless, we're in agreement on that point.

Thank you for your response, yours and Whirlwinds responses have both been very well said and respectful. I'm sure we can agree to disagree on a lot of points, but I totally respect your views.

This thread started by blaming the Bible for all the ills in the world where corrupt people claimed God on their side. I think we can all agree that mankind brings the corruption, whether through their interpretations or their egos or whatever, but God has a plan through it all ( well, atheists might not agree, but again, we can agree to disagree ). Again, I would just like to clearly state that it is the dogmatic insistence on one point of view that leads ( in my opinion ) to corruption. We can only judge for ourselves, not everyone else.

I am aware of the "attributes of God", such as omniscience, omnipotence, and what not. As far as fate vs free will ( fate being predestination - I'm actually kind of surprised that you were familiar with it, most are not ) I think the whole discussion is a perfect example of our limited points of view. God, existing outside of time and space ( again, like my sphere analogy ) all of God's actions are at the same time ( to God ). Because of this plain of existence, we percieve the illusion of time. Does God predetermine things or do we choose? In the grand scheme of things, what's the real difference? I hate to reference movies, but the Matrix trilogy, I feel, did an outstanding job of illustrating this idea. The question is not " What do you choose?" but " Why have you chosen it?"

reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim


I knew the posting of "one can be saved, and not be a Christian" would draw your eye. I believe it to be true, yet one must turn to Christ to be saved. To be saved and not be a Christian, is an example of an individual who had trusted/believed in Christ as savior, then turned away, and/or no longer walks with God as such. To walk with God from the biblical sense is to be a Christian. The idea that one can be saved and not a Christian, is backed by the Bibles many references to "eternal security" for those who at one time turned to Christ and become what the Bible refers to as "born again."

Salvation...Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. From what? Sin. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Why? The Bible also mentions: "For by one man, sinned entered into the world..(Adam). How? Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I'm sure you've heardall these verses before, but they need not an interpreter, but they interpret themselves. "Surely God has not left us in the dark, but has made for us a light."

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the lightof men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us [Jesus], (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It's amazing to see how many people don't have the intelligence or the will to shrug off something that has been pounded into their heads since birth, but I am happy to see that many are realizing the truth, not that long ago and even today if you try to express your opinion which isn't accepted by the "mob" you would be, stoned, hung, burned at the stake and even had an explosive set off at your office or residence. But the change is coming, and its coming fast

whirlwind

Where does He condone slavery? The reference I found tells us He wants them to be released after a time. Where does He say to torture prisoners? He does tell His children to battle but you must realize there are reasons for that.

Throughout most of the Old Testament. In modern bibles "slave" has been changed to "servant".

Equinox99

Where does it state that? Does it say go and murder and rape? If it does show me. God destroyed nations that became very far from him, and started to worship idols and became adulterers.

Go and have a look at www.infidels.org... then I'm sure you'll change your tune. There have been a number of changes to the Bible to make The god of the Bible (TGOTB) seem less barbaric than he really is. Maybe you can tell us HOW soldiers determined that thousands of women were virgins??

Okay, you must understand at those times there were very different laws, and it was a total different time. So if you buy a servant his freedom, then he owes you 6 years of work. Do not change "servant" into slave. A servant is someone who works for something, and a slave is someone who is held captive and working for nothing. This was intended for the Hebrew servants. The same thing applies to women, if the master has a contract with her, and she marries this male servant, she must stay until she is done her contract.

The bible does not condemn slavery, however at those times it was much different then todays world.

My friend, slavery is slavery, no matter how rosy you try to paint it. TGOTB condones slavery. He can so easily kill people who worship idols (harmless IMHO), why not punish slavers (barbaric to the extreme)? As for changing "servant" to "slave", maybe you should check older versions of the Bible. In Modern versions of the bible, "slave" is changed to "servant" to make TGOTB seem less barbaric.

The reason I separate TGOTB from God is that they're not one and the same. Anyone with half a brain AND an open mind will realise that God is not capable of all the atrocities committed in the Bible. The Bible might be the biggest conspiracy ever.

Open your mind when you read the Bible because you will see MANY things like this...

Exo20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

In MANY places in the Bible God is accompanied by this trumpeting, lightning, smoke, flame and light. He often warns people not to come too close to the EXHAUSTS OF HIS SPACESHIP/AIRCRAFT or they will certainly perish, and many have. You will also find many occurences of the use of high technology.

reply to post by Lannock

whirlwind
Where does He condone slavery? The reference I found tells us He wants them to be released after a time. Where does He say to torture prisoners? He does tell His children to battle but you must realize there are reasons for that.


Lannock -
Throughout most of the Old Testament. In modern bibles "slave" has been changed to "servant".

It is what it is and I accept that, whether it is slave or servant. In many of the cases they were bonded, or indentured. For whatever reason it was necessary for their familly or for they themself to agree to a term of labor. Such as Jacob (who became Israel) when he worked for seven years to be able to marry the woman he loved.

Things during that time may not be what we think they should be but to put our concept of what it should have been in that time is a bit prideful. If they were that way there were reasons. You can fight against slavery now because it is still here but you must simply accept that it is what it was then. Father had rules in how they should be treated fairly and that they were to be released after seven years, regardless of their debt being paid.

Equinox99
Where does it state that? Does it say go and murder and rape? If it does show me. God destroyed nations that became very far from him, and started to worship idols and became adulterers.


Go and have a look at www.infidels.org... then I'm sure you'll change your tune. There have been a number of changes to the Bible to make The god of the Bible (TGOTB) seem less barbaric than he really is. Maybe you can tell us HOW soldiers determined that thousands of women were virgins??

So....you want a Christian to believe what those that hate God tell us? The women that were virgins were taken to be wives.

My friend, slavery is slavery, no matter how rosy you try to paint it. TGOTB condones slavery. He can so easily kill people who worship idols (harmless IMHO), why not punish slavers (barbaric to the extreme)? As for changing "servant" to "slave", maybe you should check older versions of the Bible. In Modern versions of the bible, "slave" is changed to "servant" to make TGOTB seem less barbaric.

Again, you are trying to fit the times with your idea of what it should have been. It isn't your choice. Why do you believe "He so easily kills"? How easy would it be for you to kill a child of yours? He has rules and those rules are to be followed. The most important, as it is the first of the ten commandments, is to have no other gods before Him.

Now, is He telling us that for His sake or ours? He warns us through the Bible that to worship other than Him is death. It is our choice. At the end of days Satan comes pretending to be Christ. If we worship him, even unknowingly, we are no longer a child of God. The rule is there for our benefit........read His letter and learn and don't listen to those that hate Him.

The reason I separate TGOTB from God is that they're not one and the same. Anyone with half a brain AND an open mind will realise that God is not capable of all the atrocities committed in the Bible. The Bible might be the biggest conspiracy ever.

Of course the God of the Bible is God. To not understand that is to not use the brain He gave you. If there are what we today would term atrocities contained in the Bible I assure you there were reasons for them. God is always fair.

Open your mind when you read the Bible because you will see MANY things like this...

Exo20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

In MANY places in the Bible God is accompanied by this trumpeting, lightning, smoke, flame and light. He often warns people not to come too close to the EXHAUSTS OF HIS SPACESHIP/AIRCRAFT or they will certainly perish, and many have. You will also find many occurences of the use of high technology.

I agree, there are many references to those events in the past and many to what will come.


.........Whirlwind