An American says "Death to America"

To the O.P. - For the love of (insert name of spiritual patron here), try to use punctuation. I know that rules (like an attempt at correct spelling, which you aren't 'gunna' make, or correct grammar) are just another proof that we have absolutely no freedom, but it would certainly make your increasingly long and angst-saturated diatribes easier to read.

Grammar Nazi rants aside, I've been honestly trying to follow your train of thought from the beginning of this thread, and, frankly, I've watched it pretty much derail completely by the current page. You start out with the (at least in my opinion) false premise that the only good government is no government at all, and slowly mutate that into a rant against parental authority, property rights, and even the fact that things have a price. I suppose in your idealized, totally free world, cars, computers, and houses should all be manufactured / built for nothing? Given your concern about freedom before age 18, and the imposition of others' expectations, I guess things like potty training and personal hygiene have to go, if we are to be truly free?

You then cap it all off by proclaiming that anybody who doesn't share your viewpoint is either a coward, or 'doesn't have all the facts'. I really hate to break this to you, but there's no such thing as absolute freedom. That doesn't mean that we live in a police state, or that we live in an oppressive dictatorship. It means that, in order for people to live together in (relative) peace, there have to be rules. If that bothers you, that's most unfortunate, because that's the way life is once you get out of preschool.

To the OP,

I am not American, I'm Trinidadian. And I can honestly say I know EXACTLY how you feel. You are misunderstood...simply because you cannot explain yourself properly & you do not know how. I feel the exact same way. A feeling of paranoia, mixed with disgust, confusion, anger, hate, love & peace.

Many people won't understand what you're saying, or what you're trying to say, because many people do not see what you see, or how you see it.

It's hard for me to imagine the world the way I think it should be...because this(what the world is) is what I know. It's like trying to imagine a colour you've never seen to add to a painting...or a new number to finish a calculation because for some reason, all of the other numbers just don't seem to work. It's all you know...and your brain has a hard time destroying that image & making one that has to fit with the one you currently know, while at the same time...making everything different.

Everyone defines freedom differently it seems. What some may consider freedom, others may not. Maybe some people are more driven than others...or some people are crazy?

There was a hermit on Ripley's Believe It Or Not(I think) that just packed some food(that's all he took)...& went to live on a small, remote island, in the forrests, because he was fed up of society. When asked if he was happy...without any hesitation or remorse in his voice, he said yes. Now, some people may say this guy is crazy. Others may say he was a lazy bum looking for an excuse to leave his responsibilities behind. I do not know if he was mad, sane or just very different.

I am a PC Technician, Graphic Designer, Music Producer & amateure Game Designer. I love doing what I do. I can't see myself doing anything else. I can't see myself doing anything, but that. I love music, graphics, making my ideas come to life and all that goes along with the fields that I am into. But I'm also not satisfied with what I do. I feel empty at times when I think about the life lived. I just cannot come to terms that this is what it's all about. This is it. Working hard, making money...providing for your kids(which is great and all...but, seems so limited). I love helping people, I love making people happy...but yet, I'm still not satisfied. I'm pissed at most govenments. I'm pissed at a lot of people, while I also admire & adore many others, but for some reason...even when I'm totally happy...I'm not satisfied. I'm very spiritual, focused & content...yet discontented. And I do not know why.

I hate most of the world I live in. The things that I have seen disgust me...while other things bring happiness to me. But for some reason, that thirst I have for something greater is not quenched. This is not a feeling that I've grown into. It's something that I've felt my entire life...ever since I can remember, I've felt that something was wrong with the world, but I never knew what it was exactly...I still don't. Maybe it's one thing, maybe it's many. I'm going on 20 years soon & this feeling has never left me. I truly doubt I'll find anything that can fill that emptiness in me. Maybe it's not the world...maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not supposed to be in this dimension. I don't know.

I do not know why I am the way I am...I think you are like me in a sense...which, I'm sorry to hear really, because honestly, I sometimes wish I could just be happy like everyone else.

Just a quick thought about "freedom". I hope many of you know that most of the people of the working world hate their jobs. Most of them do not have the jobs they want, jobs they are sometimes qualified to have & jobs that are out of their reach(for whatever reason)...but ofcourse, they have to pay the bills & feed the kids...also take their spouses out for a good time...not to mention treat themselves to a slice of the good life every once in a while. But, most of these people are unhappy. Most of the people of the world are poor. I can say that I'm blessed doing what I love doing, but I'm still battling with my own demons. However, if you think about some of these things deeply...you realize..."Freedom", or what the common idea of what freedom is, is really more of an illusion...and a very ineffective, but real looking one at that.

[edit on 10-9-2007 by sdrawkcab]

trinidadian, thank you. I'm a musician. I love music. I think I'm a very good songwriter, and I'm very in demand in my small world. Everyone wants to do some sort of musical project with me. I could be doing exactly what I wanted with my free time and also have a job where I could support myself alright, and I mean for most people, and well honestly for me at a certain point in my life before too recently, that would've been okay. But I've always known something was wrong. I eventually came to the decision that even the things I love more than anything, I can't enjoy as much as I wish I could...even my girlfriend, who I love to death... I can't just be happy with some money, a moderately successful band, and a mate. Is that wrong of me? Do I have to feel the need to try and wrap my mind around why things around me still disturb me? America is wrong. People who blindly support America aren't bad, and I hate to argue with them, but they are ignorant of something if they can't see the major MAJOR problems with this government and this society. It's not just the fact that we are in an unjust war (and have been in unjust wars ever since time began), or that we have some fraudulent monetary system, or that politicians in positions of power are all liars and scoundrels, or that we can't even feed our own poor people, or the dozens of other blatant problems that I could name off the top of my head that nobody can really argue with. It's the fact that most people tolerate it, and think that all they have to do is vote to change things, or that a little protest in the street is gunna change things, or that screaming at people through a megaphone on a street corner will win people over, or that Alex Jones is gunna save the world even. Just read literature by any of the greatest thinkers of our time, even by our own founders of this country, and they spell it out for you. All you have to do is look around after reading these little chunks of insight is look around you and say "Oh yeah, I believe he hit the nail right on the head there. Fudge!"
I can't explain it, but I know that mass consumption and mass apathy has taken over this country. We should be storming the white house right now in opposition to this war. We should've learned our lesson before I was even born. We should have more to talk about than some guy charged with dogfighting.. We should have more to do than get up and go to work every day, knowing full well that we're doing nothing. It's odd because I know most people know what's abbhorrently wrong, but somehow nobody cares. Everyone cares about money, and that's all!!! Everyone equates money with life. Getting a job is synonymous with getting a life. They scoff at me because I don't understand it. I don't understand how they can just sit here and nitpick about all this unimportant CRAP when the whole world is DYING and will be uninhabitable in 100 years or less if we don't make some major major changes soon! But no we're still talking about Brangelina and how great America is because we can get an education lalalala... and we think we're so separate. Separate from the rest of the world's population, separate from nature, separate even from each other!!! Even from each other!!! when we can't trust each other, when neighbors call the police on their neighbors for leaving recycling bins out too long, there's something very wrong with the way Americans act towards each other. "I've got a job and bills to pay" doesn't justify apathy towards humanity and the Earth in general. You wanna know why more and more people are so left behind? Not because they're lazy or stupid, but because the education system leaves them behind. I dropped outta high school, the biggest mistake I ever made. But ya know, I can't blame myself because my ability to choose was vastly compromised by authority figures who I trusted ENCOURAGING me to drop out for a whole year and a half! So I had the choice, but I also trusted authority too much.

So please don't talk to me about "everybody has a choice". Freedom of choice can be easily compromised, and is being easily compromised by our authoritarians we trust to care for us. Almost everyone's freedom of choice in this country is a lie because they are unconsciously being forced down somebody else's path. Don't argue with something you are not even vaguely aware is happening to you. Don't tell me that I whine too much when I regret things I've done. I'm not proud of faultering in my education. It's very difficult to get back on track once you're out and you're stuck in the working world, to even have TIME, let alone money, to get an education again. Especially when you're not a drone and you can't accept being a slave to a cubicle and quotas and progress reports for the rest of your life. Like trinidad said, the vast majority of people in this country hate their jobs and never have time to go and do what they've always wanted to do. I mean, it's pretty sad if all you wanna do with your life is choose which beer to buy and which waitress to hit on. So your idea of fun is intoxicants and women as sexual objects? I believe I've made my point.

I don't suggest violence. I am for the decline of the state and the ascension of the individual soul. Having an infinite soul and acknowledging that makes you free. I would gladly live by myself on an island, by the way. That sounds bitchin'. Unfortunately AGAIN it takes money to move anywhere. I had to pay 25 bucks just to drive on roads to get to a place two states away, not counting outrageous gas prices. Wow, what freedom!!!

So no I'm not an anarchist. There is always law, even without government. The only just laws are the natural ones.

reply to post by indierockalien

No one said you had to drive on that road. No one made you buy gas and drive a car. You could have walked, backpacked, through the woods, whatever. Point is, you CHOSE to do those things, no one held a gun to your head and threatened your life if you did not.

However, let's rewind a bit to your innitial argument. Here you are, happily driving down the road enjoying your freedom doing whatever it is you want to do, with no one to tell you otherwise. You come upon another person, they too are doing whatever they want to do, with no one to tell them otherwise. Unfortunately for you, this person happens to think you look funny, and wants to remove you from this earth. Which is OK, in your eyes, because he has 100% freedom to do whatever he wants to do and no one should be able to tell him that he cannot kill you, nor should he have to face any punishment, because he didn't break any "laws". Do you see what I'm getting at? No, you probably don't, because you're stuck in a mindset much like those you accuse, and refuse to believe anything else.

What about religion? Where you're bound by your choices, much like here in the US of A, but instead of spending jail time or whatever it may be, you instead suffer eternal damnation or whatever it may be, if you don't do as your TOLD. So you see, even a spiritual person is not totally free, regardless of the society they live in. Sure, they are free to make whatever decision they want, do whatever they want, but not at the same time have the outcome they want. If they want to go to heaven, or whatever, you must follow the rules, and do what you're told. It's not just the american government.

People have always believed in some higher power, whether it be the spirits, or a singular g*d, or even a tribe leader/ruler. In doing this, they have always done, or not done, certain things because they didn't want to anger this higher power. My point, is that humans as a whole have always abided by something, followed the "laws" or what they thought they should do to please the gods/spirits/tribe/grandma, whatever; thus not being 100% free and still abided by laws, imagined or otherwise. Again, this has always been the case, this isn't something that just happened recently. Perhaps your thread title should instead read, "Death to Humans"

Call me blind, ignorant, whatever you wish, but I'm not the one that doesn't see the huge gaping holes and illogic arguments in your rantings.

reply to post by Ecidemon


I think you're greatly misunderstanding what indie is saying. He's basically saying that what you think is freedom, may very well be an idea of freedom, rather than freedom itself. I very much doubt he's suggesting that we do what we please, when we want to & how we want to. Fact is...alot of people are doing what they please, when they want to & how they want to...especially the powerful people. What is freedom when the man who has the most money/power for whatever reason cannot be touched by the law & is comitting the most heinous acts, while the small man/woman is in prison for some petty crime? That's freedom? Sure you can choose to do the most positive thing...which is fine, but that's just the tip of the ice berg.

I come from a very poor home...I'm doing better now financially due to my education, common sense & skill...but there were countless times when I had to come home to nothing to eat...sleep on the floor etc. Think about it, I was too young to work, my mom was basically a single parent because my pops was dead broke(he's doing much better now though). When I did have a little money(that my mom or brothers gave me) sometimes I would be so hungry to buy a meal to eat, but knowing full well I wouldn't have that same money tomorrow to buy myself a meal. My choices in times like that, were to either...buy some sort of food that moment & grant my hungry need for that moment, but starve tomorrow....or....starve now, but save that money so I can buy a meal the next day, so I won't starve tomorrow. Tell me what kind of choice is that?
Ofcourse it's a choice...but both choices sucked!!! There's no real choice there. There's always a choice...but sometimes you have to choose between bad & bad or bad & worse, simply because you do not have the option for choosing good. That optiopn is someties left out...and it may not always be your fault why the good option isn't there.

Don't kid or fool yourself. I've visited America once(just recently, to see some of my family), but I've lived in Trinidad all my life, & I can tell you the problems faced are not only found in America...they're all over the world. It's something most people have to battle. Not a few, not some...but most. And that's the dreadful part about it...the fact that it seems to be getting worse & more people are affected negatively opposed to the number of people who are affected positively.

Yes, there are some great, positive & even beautiful things about the world...but the negative factor is too much. I am not satisfied with what I've seen and with what I see. I do try my very best to help make the world the better place I wish it to be...and if it does become a general paradise where most of the world is happy living together...I will be very happy for that...but I still think I may feel an emptiness somewhere(I do not know why...maybe because I've felt it for so long).

Too many people take too many things lightly...mostly because it does not affect them or it hasn't affected them...yet.

Also, let me say, that their is a huge difference between being religous and being spiritual. They are not the same things. But I am not going to debate about that.

Indie doesn't seem to be an anarchist...and neither am I. Whether or not the curent govenrment system dies or not...let's say it does die, I doubt anarchy can ever be reached. People will find a way to organise and systemise everything. Some people just naturally lead, while others follow. What I have a problem with however, is that most of these leaders fail to realise what can happen to the world if they continue to lead the way they do. And it is not just the leaders, the people that follow also have a large part to play in helping to better this place. I do not have all the answers, but I do see a very big problem that is growing larger everyday. I will do my part...I do do my part. But I cannot do this by myself. We need all the help we can get.

I'm just gunna say ditto to what trinidad said because the average joe will have no concept of what I'm TRYING to get across. It's very hard to put into words when its just a knowing that's beyond words. Most people will be happy with what they have because they don't know that there could be anything better, and when someone comes along in this day and age and says "Look, things could be so much better!" people just blindly attack them and accuse them of being everything under sun just because they don't share the same viewpoint as them... but the simple fact is that there is something very wrong here. name every conspiracy under the sun worth mentioning, and it's happening here and now, and we're all victims of it whether we realize it or not. I'm done. You can close the thread I made the msitake of opening in the first place.
By the way, if someone chooses to kill me, why would I care anyway? I'd be dead. Shoot, I'd be FREE. I look forward to the end of my life. Whatever's next is probably a million times better. Although I hope people realize things a little sooner than that. I'd look forward to that day just as well.

reply to post by indierockalien


I support your enthusiasm but your ideas are not practical.

Why are there stupid governments? Because there are stupid people. As long as stupid people (sheeple) continue to be born every day, there will be the demand to keep herding them. It's supply and demand.

While I understand your need to not want to pay taxes and to quit your job, I think this too is unrealistic. Are you going to sit home and wither away? Not be able to feed yourself? Spend all day at protests? What this country doesn't need is a movement consisting of tons of lazy people.

If you want to overthrow the government there is only one way to do it and that is with mechanized force. How you plan to make this happen is beyond me. But even if you were to succeed it wouldn't make a bit of difference at this point. Read on.

It is human arrogance to think we are endangering this planet. This planet has spent billions of years being subject to tectonic activity, acid rain, lava flows, floods, asteroid impacts, and virii way before we arrived on the scene. Nature has a way of balancing itself out. Humans are akin to a virus and if the planet sees fit, it will once again balance the scales.

So while we are here we need to learn to love better, feel better, and do better within ourselves. Until humans learn how to become conscious of those things, you can eradicate all the governments in the world and it won't make one bit of difference. History will repeat itself as it has always done until we can break the cycle of incompetence that lies at our very core.

[edit on 9/10/2007 by pjslug]

Originally posted by sdrawkcab

Don't kid or fool yourself. I've visited America once(just recently, to see some of my family), but I've lived in Trinidad all my life, & I can tell you the problems faced are not only found in America...they're all over the world. It's something most people have to battle. Not a few, not some...but most. And that's the dreadful part about it...the fact that it seems to be getting worse & more people are affected negatively opposed to the number of people who are affected positively.

The point that we are leading to is the problems in Trinidad and most of the rest of the world are much worse than in America. We have many choices that your world doesn't (and I'm talking about our poor too) our poor is not even considered poor in the majority of the world.

i just thought i would add. that NO ONE has to follow the rules and laws of the government. WE ALL have a choice in what we do. i follow no rules and no laws that are just absolutly stupid ones. obviously i stop at a red light when driving and stop signs but these are good laws. and if my house were to get robbed i would not call the police its pointless anyway ill get street justice if i find the person. but its not like the police will find them anyway. me and my buddy were driving in his car one time and out of no where some throws a beer bottle at his car and cracks the back window. we chase this guy down and we ended up losing him in traffic but we got his license plate # we call the police and guess what they said to us there is NOTHING they can do because we cant PROOVE IT. well right then and there i said no way in hell will i ever call the police. i will handle things my way always. i dont expect anyone to do anything for me but me

Originally posted by indierockalien
I would rather die agonizing and wretching of starvation than continue to live a lie and support an evil superpower that uses it's might to destroy the world rather than serve it.

So does this mean you are going to starve yourself from now on?

[edit on 9/10/2007 by pjslug]

no one has a choice. get real and admit that you are not where you want to be. why else would you be a member here at ATS? because you're happy with your little slce of lie and you just like digging for the truth as a hobby? I don't mean to insult anyone here, but you just don't get it...well some do, but most of those people who agree with me see this headline and go "duh." and move on. To answer all of your criticisms, I really would not care who builds my roads and who polices my felons and who clucks my chickens etc etc etc... if the planet is destroyed. The main contributing factor in the death of planet Earth? America/Britain/one-and-same. "We" forced our way of life upon the world, althewhile raping and pillaging it in every stop we made, leaving a festering pile of garbage in our wake and proclaiming how we brought democracy and change to a country. What are we doing in Iraq? What were we doing in Vietnam? Korea? Why were we secret bedmates with the Nazis in WWII, and why did we end up assimilating top nazi officials into our government after the war? Why did we stage OK City, Pearl Harbor, September 11th, Gulf of Tonkin, yada yada? Why is the CIA spying on millions of citizens a year? Why are there deadly chemicals in our food, water, vaccines the the FDA does nothing about? Why can't we even help our own poor? If Master P has enough wealth to afford a solid gold bedroom, why can thousands of people freeze to death on the streets every year? How can a country that prides its self on liberty and justice be home to the worst isolation and injustice in the world? All of you people saying blah blah you have a choice blah blah... tell that to the thousands of homeless people on the street freezing to death come december. Sure, they CHOSE to be freezing and starving to death. The millions of minorities stuck in ghettos and raised on violence, you tell that to a mother who's just lost her child to drive by shooting. I'm sure she chose to live in a crime infested rathole. I'm sure the victims of Katrina chose to be completely #ed over by FEMA. I'm sure the kid joining the army on the lie that they would pay your college tuition didn't choose to go witness his own men killing innocent Iraqis who had nothing to begin with, in the name of freedom. In the name of your choices... maybe we did choose this. But now we gotta choose something better... and I don't see many 9 to 5ers giving that too much thought. All I see in most full time work-a-day people is ignoprance and close mindedness and aloofness because "oh I work so hard for my living and all you do is bitch and complain", like pointing out the things that are #ed up and instigating people into thinking about more than just flags and borders and economic values.... into maybe thinking about humanity as a whole, not just themselves and their comfy little niche that's prolly being paid for by thousands of other starving children in other countries. We're not free. We're freeloaders. Capitalism does not work if it depends on 2/3rds of the world population starving to death. Freedom is not true if it's being defended with the blood and tears of millions of innocent victims per year. War is never just, and should never be supported. The most warmongering fearmongering nation in the history of the world is none other than AMERICA. Get it? It's all a big lie. Government does not work with secrecy and lies, but if we never develop spiritually (which isn't that hard!), the only government we will get will inevitably be controlled by secrecy and lies, especially if it goes hand in hand with capitalism. Capitalism and freedom don't mix well. Money and freedom do not mix well. money and spiritualism do not mix well. It doesn't cost money to be peaceful or loving or truthful. That's all we should be, and mostly what we would be if we weren't gripped with fear of EVERYTHING. We're even afraid of our neighbors. Tell me, where's the logic in that kind of society?

WILL ALL THE I HATE AMERICA PEOPLE LIVING IN MY BEAUTIUFL COUNTRY PLEASE STAND UP AND EXIT RIGHT. I am sick and tireed of people blasting the United States. Let me guess, you think the country ahs failed you in some way. Maybe you have failed your country. Maybe you are one of those people who don't care, take no responsibilities and abuse the system. I don't know you, so I can;t just assume this.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind. Sounds like your not getting any love. Maybe your mother did not breast feed you. I don't know. But as you say, you have never been to a 3rd world country. Do me a favor, go visit a few. I have been to many in my life and truly appreciate how great this country is.

I am still waiting for all those Hollywood types, who promised to leave my Country if GWB was elected. THen said the same thing if he was re-elected. None of them left either. Just makes me sick how some people think (or don't think) about the Greatest Country in the world.

Dude... I could have it worse. I never said anything about woe is me. I mentioned a couple of events in my life that I thought back upon way after the fact that made me feel even more of the way I do now... but I think I was with you for a long time. I think I bought into all the same propaghanda that you did, and when somebody disagreed, I said "Then giiit out!" because it would seem as though we do have it well off in this country. Open your eyes, though. I was with you on September 11th when "terrorists" attacked our fair country, and I cried and got scared and got pissed and supported the war. I thought it was cool at first cuz I was gunna get to watch us go kick some bad guy ass, and hell I even almost joined the military cuz I wanted to help. You wanna kno I've never been to any 3rd word country (by the way, are we on a different world from them now or something?), and believe me if I ever get the chance, I will right away... because I'm pretty sure I would see at least some of the suffering we've brought to these other countries. You think they did it to themselves? Not in this day and age. And definitely not when we have US military bases in most countries. Why do we have bases there? If we're the peacekeepers of the world, why are some of our biggest bases just coincidentially in some of he most war-torn, backwards, impoverished countries in the world? I don't support what "we" stand for anymore because it's all a lie. Anyone with an open mind can just look at Sept 11th a little deeper and you can see that. This fine government that we have MURDERED almost 3000 people on that day, just for an excuse to go back into the middle east, destroy their political and social infrastructure, and establish their own in place of it...all for financial gain, for more worldwide government, for more bloodshed, for more control. Not only did they murder, but they've lied, cheated, stole from, spyed on, arrested, and ruined the lives of countless thousands of people in our own country just so everyone would continue playing ball their way.
You think they like us to have choices? No they don't. That's why you're gunna find that you have less and less free choice every single year that goes by and everyone just sits here and feels comfortably numb with blind patriotic love while the world is being destroyed around them, being destroyed in the name of freedom, democracy, God, and YOU.

Since you hate America so much, yet, you seem more than willing to take the advantages of being a citizen here entails, I think that speaks volumes about you as a person, but I'll desist. By the way, why are you still here since this is such an "eeeevil nation " and all...

[edit on 17-9-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by zysin5
As noble as you are sir, and your heart is in the right place, I admire that.

Really? I don't see anything "noble" about his post at all...

i had some spelling errors and such. my bad, I'm sorry I don't speak like a scientist.

As of this moment, it's hard to have much of a choice at 9.00 an hour. Imagine the majority of people in this world who make a small fraction of that PER DAY. imagine how much less choice then they have. Should I not complain for them? Should I not feel like crap because I've been raised this way my whole life and it's all I know? Does that give me the right to be ignorant, just cuz I can't do anything right now, should I be silent and NOT say that something is evil just because maybe I'm still living off it because maybe there's people around me who don't want me out on the street? Believe me, I've tried. I lived on the street for a week once.... but then I realized how much less I could do as a bum on the street, when people won't even look you in the eye, or they look at you with complete disgust. Maybe I've gotta buy in a little and gain some acceptance from the sheep before they'd follow me anywhere. Maybe this is gunna take some time and some deep thought in order to come up with anything effective to do, but just because people around me attack me for what I say doesn't mean I'm gunna stop saying it. What good would starving to death on the street, or even living as a hermit in a forest, do?

I may be pissed, but I'm not stupid. I'm not gunna go die in a forest or freeze to death under a bridge to prove a point that no one is listening to anyway.