An American says "Death to America"

Originally posted by indierockalien
Your arguments are very good ones, and I'll admit that some of my ideas are radical, AND I'll admit that I've never visited a third world country... but if I did, and I saw exactly what you saw, I would be even more disgusted with myself and this country. We spend tens of billions of dollars a year fighting "terror", when all we've Like I said before, maybe you haven't experienced corruption and discrimination and a complete LACK of freedom of choice like I have in our own USA.

There is no such thing as complete lack of choice in America. Just because you do not like your choices doesn't mean you lack them. There is not a single able body American that could not pull themselves out of the gutter if they choose to. To not choose doesn’t mean no choice. The thing with America is it is all up to you as to what you want to do. In the majority of the world they really do have no choice.

Give me an example of a no choice in America, and I’ll counter it.

Do you know that the American government gives more aid to the world than the next top three countries combine, and that the American people give 2 ½ times what the government gives per year? We are talking 50 billion plus per year my friend. As I said America tries, but it doesn’t mean we are perfect or even close.

Also corruption is in America but much like everything else that is bad with our system when compared it is 10 times worst in majority of other countries. When was the last time that mass killings went on in the states? It happens daily in other parts of the world. We value life here and so much of the world doesn’t. The American people can focus on the plights of just one person, but 10,000 may die in another part of the world without so much a side look from the people in that area.

As I said before you need to focus on what you can control for that will be your answer to a happy life.



[edit on 8-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

Indie, you obviously have some problems with the way America is currently being run...which isn't in itself a criticism, I have problems with the current situation too. We might have *different* problems, but that's really not an issue in the current discussion.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you think the only way to make the world better is to do away with America as a political entity, and with all government as a matter of principle. If I'm wrong, then by all means let me know.

If I'm right, though, I have a few questions for you regarding the exact workings of your anarchistic utopia. The biggest one being "Who builds the roads?" You may also substitute "Bridges", "Airports", or "Water and Sewer Systems" in place of the word "roads", if your initial answer was that we'll all walk, and won't need roads.

Related question: "Who trains / maintains police departments (Unless you're going to tell me that we don't need them for some reason, which is going to require an explanation in itself)? Absent a police force, who trains and maintains a fire department? Having been a firefighter for several years, I can tell you it's not cheap.

Who regulates currency? Barter is fine on a local scale...I'll trade you a dozen eggs and a cold beer for your help in painting my house, for example...but how does one barter for, say, cellular phone or internet service? You need some form of standard exchange...which implies an organization to set the standards...and crap, now we have government again.

Love it or loathe it, unless we want to regress to a very pre-industrial society, I think we're going to need some form of government. We might argue over its form, or the scope of its powers, but not over its necessity.

I don't like to say I'm an anarchist, and really I don't know what to call myself. I really don't even know how to counter-act your arguments that well because not too long ago, I would've asked the same questions and made the same criticisms of this crazy stuff I'm saying, it's MADNESS!!! On the other hand, I've realized that what we are doing now, marching towards what everyone knows in the backs of their minds is some huge catastrophe is ULTRA madness. Just because "this is the best we have" or "we try our hardest", doesn't make the problem go away... and to be quite honest, I don't trust one bit in corporations and scientists on the payroll of corportations and government stooges on the payroll of corporations and basically the whole country as a whole backed up to a wall by corporations, and obviously been taken over and now in bed with the corporations, to take care of the problem. Matter of fact, we seem to be getting worse every year as far as destroying the environment and reducing other countries to rubble.
Who's gunna build the roads? Who's gunna manage police? I don't know. If everything in our current state as we know it is our only means of energy consumption and there truly is no advanced energy systems, available at absolutely no one's disposal in this country, and the monetary system is truly worth at least sommething and we have to rely on the way it is now being the only means by which to operate society and move it forward... then I don't know. If I'm wrong about everything that has caused me to come to these conclusions I have, then there truly is no better way and we should just accept it... but you know that's not true.
I don't have all the answers, and to be honest with you, you could win this argument just because of the sheer size of the problem, and the eventual realization that this is something much bigger than us, but don't think we didn't ask for what happens because of everyone's ignorance. I'm not ignorant to all the roadblocks in the way of people being civilized without someone to tell them to be civilized, but I know that it's the only way to survive. I know that once a society believes that they are above natural law, they are headed downward and will eventually destroy themselves. Logic is great and all, but it has no place in philosophy, because logic has no soul. Logic doesn't ask what the most lovging way to do something is. Logic asks what's the most efficient way to do something? Efficiency based on the logic of a clinically insane society. Hmmm, I think that type of logic scares me. So, who's gunna build the roads? Better question is this: Who's gunna help save the world so that there will still be people to appreciate the roads when they are built?

It all amounts to this: G*d d*mned people and their love for shiny things!

Originally posted by indierockalien
a little off topic... but to sum up just how serious this stuff is... I gave up drugs and alcohol, stopped watching TV, started READING, became alienated (no pun intended) from the putzs i thought were my friends, became spiritual, quit several jobs I was forced to find (and unfortunately still haven't found a way around it, sincce you can't work for anything other than imaginary numbers anymore...
[edit on 8-9-2007 by indierockalien]

Welcome brother, enjoy the ride. You don't have to keep coming back here you know. I'm not, humanity disgusts me. It's saving graces are far too few and far between. The little goodness I see in humanity is only enough to make me regret the fate it has brought upon itself and not enough to inspire me to help save it.

The strangers have left this place and will not come again. A world has decided that it is alone in the universe out of arrogance, greed and ignorance and so now it is.

So put your feet up and enjoy the ride, the fireworks should be spectacular and at the end we can move on back to reality.

I think that if you are wanting to quit your job and not pay taxes and wanna go live in a box, then by all means; however, I love America. I think that it is a fine country. Actually, I think its the best country.

I beleive I am free. I do not understand the statements that Americans are controlled. I chose to go to work today. I chose to eat at Mel's Diner, where I chose to have a taco salad. I decided to leave a 5 dollar tip because the waitress was very nice and lets face it, she was hot and I am shallow. After work I spontaneously chose to stop and get some beer on the way home. Just a few minutes ago I made up my own mind to get online and get on a conspiracy site and read how you think America's citizens are the most enslaved and misused of all.

Can you list some examples of how you have not had the freedom of choice? Can you give me some examples of how I have not had freedom of choice?

You were born into the American Society, not much you can do about that. Its a place where you have to work for what you want. You have to pay taxes. Its a wonderful place where anyone can get an education and make something of themselves. I am a testiment to that. I came from a very poor family, and was able to recieve financial aid in the form of loans and am currently in college.

You say government doesnt work, and I say it does. Maybe try working with the system instead of against it. You cant beat it. Only join it. Resistance if futile. You will be assimilated. Sorry just felt right to put that in lol.

ok the title is misleading...who said "death to america"?

Originally posted by indierockalien
I literally break down in tears when I think about just how overwhelming the problem is. I literally have trouble keeping jobs and keeping some sort of grip in society because it's just so wrong.

sorry to be rude or what ever but... what makes the fact you can't hold a job societies problem? only 5% of the world seems to be unable to maintain steady employment; last I checked that is such a minority that it would obviously come down to personal issues as opposed to societal issues. Secondly the literally breaking down in tears as to how messed up our world is... it sounds like a good psychiatrist (not a prescription peddler, a person who listens and talks you through your problems) would help you with that issue.

There is an age old saying people don't seem to remember as often nowadays...

"Life ain't Nice, or pretty; and if you expect both you'll get neither"

maybe It's just the southerner in me; but I've heard that all of my life.

reply to post by indierockalien


Wow!
That must be really easy for you to type out on your keyboard while you are safe and sound with a roof over your head, w/ running hot and cold water, electricity and food. I'm sure you are not starving and probably have a car and a job. We know you have a computer and probably a HD TV and a Playstation 3.

You need to grow up!
Without some form of government, you would not be here on this forum enjoying yourself. Without some form of government societies like ours and other industrialized nations would not occur. You would have chaos and nothing would get done and your standard of living would not improve. If not for government societies would totally collapse and you would be living under some leaves with only a hole in the ground as your bathroom.

Having said that, I am for very limited government. I want government to stay out of my life and only due what's necessary in order to provide a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.

I'm just killing time, my friend. If I could think of something important to do right here and now, I'd do it.
As for psychiatrists, dude don't think I didn't believe I needed one for a long time. I went to one, and it just made me realize even more what I realize now. He was a good guy, and he did help me get over some things about myself. For a long time, I thought "woe is ME. Nobody understands ME and MY reasoning why I rebel and why I kick and scream." and I had a lotta self-esteem issues. I have held jobs that I did like and could tolerate for years of mindless wage generation... but I didn't get it. I'm a smart enough guy, and I can drive a forklift and operate lathes and do calculations for laser sheet metal cutting machines, and I've done all of that. I've been doing that crap since I was 17. One thing I can tell you is that I was never the most "logical" with my money. I either spent it on musical gear, albums, tshirts and such, or I gave it away to other people who needed it... because it was never important to me. It's just money. It's fake and meaningless. That's why I eventually quit my job, because it was pointless. I was in college. I quit that because all anyone was ever harping at me about was how much it was gunna help me get a better job, a more respectable career, to earn more money. To get more crap that I don't care about into my life. More paper without any value other than the value of the trust we put into it. Even if it was backed up by gold, what is gold? It's just a shiny rock.
Death to America isn't like some call for a holy war or a call to arms or a call to violence or anything like that. It's a call to understand that we are responsible for governing our own actions SOLELY, and once you give your responsibility away for more convenience, you've committed suicide. Maybe also physical in nature, but definitely mental and spiritual in nature. If you wanna make good a component out of a thinking conscious being, all you need to do is give him the illusion of choice in the form of choosing conveniences, and choosing in which way does he/she want to operate as a component in the machine. I never said working hard was a bad thing. I work hard for things I love. I help people in my neighborhood all the time. I watch my sister's children 3 days a week for 6 hours, and I don't ask for compensation. I work for people, and would rather not work for companies/corporations which provide nothing to the world except more pollution, death, and depravity. when you say you work hard for a living, are you working for yourself? or are you working to forget that you have a self, a self that is responsible for deciding what is right and wrong and just and unjust. These are not hard concepts, and we do not need juudicial systems and/or religious and political talking heads deciding for us. We should, and DO know. I don't need to tell you why people today are so shallow and malicious towards each other. Just look at an television and you'll get it. People have been guided slowly towards de-evolution. I don't have the time nor patience to provide evidence and quote researchers, scientists, scholars, philosophers, and great thinkers from every walk of life to prove to you that I'm right. Decide for yourself. People who come to understand all of this will hear the message and agree, and the people who are still caught in the web will continue to march towards the cliff.
Even Presidents of the United States have warned the people of what this country was becoming, and we still ignored it. So who's gunna listen to me if they don't already get it or are open to it?
I am just passing time until I figure out what in the hell to do next.

oh and i do not play videogames. The only reason I'm in this forum is to possibly meet people who get the big picture. I don't need proof. I don't need pats on the back. I don't give proof because proof is never enough for the critic. He's already made up his mind, and in his narrow bandwith he will stay, almost always.

Originally posted by indierockalien
We do not need a government to protect us. We do not need politicians. We do not need to give our power away to anyone, because once we do that, we're already finished...

I dare one person to successfully argue this away.

I don't really see an argument at all. What is your stance? If anarchy (no government at all) is what you are referring to, then I could offer some counters. Otherwise, I have no idea where you are going with this...

well theres nothin funny about "death to america" in the first place, however when i see how they use it for humor in cartoons and movies making terorists and tourist say that or having terorists burning the american flag and a man lighting a cigarete on the flames(family guy cartoon)even sick at it is its kinda funny


on the question.u should be thankfull and love the country where u were born...thats what people say...but still whats so ashamefull of not liking your country?or being a "patriot".
bulgaria my country was a great place with kind people before.
but my ages....my life....filled with rising prices,misery,low payment,bad people,arrogant people,backstabbers,well im sorry teacher u cant brainwash me being a patriot and love my country when i havent seen much good from living here

Okay, so we get rid of all things America (government, politics, policies, etc).


Now what?

As many of you have said, people are "cruel and evil" (not an exact quote, but general idea). So what happens when all of this cruelty and evil is let out upon the masses in uncontrolled rage? I really can not see any benefit to this anarchist state. Look at what has been accomplished by SOCIETY (not just America) in observing ourselves, where we live, and how we live. Take any of the great philosophers and just examine their ideas... That stuff is just awesome!

Sure, there will probably be a reply like "you can't let go" or "you're stuck in this material world". And holy crap, you're right! BECAUSE this is a world where I am functioning, interacting, and learning freely, and I think that is a what I think a society is all about.

Originally posted by granoladude
Okay, so we get rid of all things America (government, politics, policies, etc).


Now what?

As many of you have said, people are "cruel and evil" (not an exact quote, but general idea). So what happens when all of this cruelty and evil is let out upon the masses in uncontrolled rage? I really can not see any benefit to this anarchist state. Look at what has been accomplished by SOCIETY (not just America) in observing ourselves, where we live, and how we live. Take any of the great philosophers and just examine their ideas... That stuff is just awesome!

Even though the movie kind of suck but in Water World where the copy machine repair man became the evil warlord was so true. Hehe

To the OP…there are many college degrees that do not lead to good paying job but to enlightenment.

I'm not gunna pull any matrix quotes out on anyone. The simple fact is that we are not free, and the people who think we ARE free only think that because from day one, that's what we've been told. From day one, the expectations of everyone else are forced upon us. Were you free before the age of 18? or were you stuck in the education system and stuck under the eyes of parents who have been taught to be afraid of their own children? and now that you are free of the grips of parental units and the mandatory state education system, are you really free now? could you leave your job any time you want and travel all over the world without restriction? could you travel all over the country even without restriction? if there was another draft enstated, could you avoid being forced to go to war? if there is another tax enstated, could you be free to not pay it? if you decided you wanted to go build a home in the woods and live with nature, would you be free to do that? Nope. You always have to answer to somebody. You always have to fill out the proper forms and present the proper identification and pay ever increasing amounts of valueless numbers in order to get what you ask for. There's some logic to it, there's some order to it, but there's not much room for being a caring loving person in a society that's ruled by material gain. There's not much freedom if you are forced to fit into a certain mold once you're a certain age. I always wonder about teen angst. Is it "just a phase", and is it just an individual person who's lost and confused because of their hormones? or is it that we realize this stuff unconsciously (some consciously) when we are at that age, and it's kind of our last attempt to try and break free of social barriers because something inside us all cries out against what's being forced down upon us? None of us would choose this, if we had any conscious realization anymore of how far away we are from what we could be. None of us would choose 12 hour days of pointless labour. None of us would choose to give away a third (for all you nitpickers, its a rough figure...jeez) of our laughable earnings away for some vague purposes in the form of taxation. None of us would choose having to carry identity cards with us wherever we go. none of us would consciously choose to throw people who smoke a little pot here and there in jail for months. none of us would choose to have to buy everything we need to survive from a handful of faceless corporations that lie, cheat, steal, and murder, all in the name of top profit. None of us would choose to live in a cramped, crowded crime infested pullution filled sess pool, at least if we hadn't developed the wrong aspirations throughoutr our lives because of outside sources saying "it's good, it's great", yay capitalism" "yay state funded education", "yay the greater good of America". Notice whenever they talk about our safety and security, they rarely ever say "safety of the people", they say "safety of America, prosperity of America, longevity of America".... and since it was all founded on lies in the first place, that translates into "safety and security of lies, secrecy, depravity, suffering, war, crime, malice, and ignorance". Who do you think caused all the suffering and pestillence in other countries? Who do you think supports those horrible dictatorships, or at least turns their heads?"
What about all the horrible atrocities happening in Africa? If we were a nation that wanted to keep peace and save lives, then why aren't we taking military action against the dictators and killers that rule those countries? the situation there was 1000 times worse than it was in the middle east before this whole Iraq war ever started. If our priorities "as a nation" were peaceful and "of the people" then we would've actually done something to help those countries. We would've sent aide money.supplies directly to the people, not to their obviously corrupt governments. I piss on the flag.

I'm sorry, but anybody who supports this country is either ignorant, selfish, or afraid. You don't need to have a college degree to understand what's going on here... and people who spit out facts in contrary to the obvious of what I'm saying are definitely not spitting out ALL the facts, and the facts they do spit out are most likely just words in a book.

Originally posted by indierockalien
I'm sorry, but anybody who supports this country is either ignorant, selfish, or afraid. You don't need to have a college degree to understand what's going on here... and people who spit out facts in contrary to the obvious of what I'm saying are definitely not spitting out ALL the facts, and the facts they do spit out are most likely just words in a book.

If we are not free then why are you and others allowed to openly question the govt, accuse those in govt of criminal behavior and call for the "Death of America?"

Please explain why you are not incarcerated as one would be were he not living in a free country?

delete - double post

[edit on 9-9-2007 by Night Watchman]

Originally posted by indierockalien
I'm not gunna pull any matrix quotes out on anyone. The simple fact is that we are not free, and the people who think we ARE free only think that because from day one, that's what we've been told. From day one, the expectations of everyone else are forced upon us. Were you free before the age of 18?

Well we are not free from the need to have a place to sleep and food to eat. If you plan your retirement right you do become free from the need to work for a living and nothing says you can’t retire at the age of 40. I plan on retiring around the age of 60 after all my kids are done with school and spend the rest of my life doing whatever I want.

I do not know any time in history when you would not need to work for a living even if it was working a crop field and hunting. We have a lot more free time today to do anything we want compared to any past history.
If you wanted to work around the world join the Peace Corps or 100s of other like companies, but I’m just not sure what freedom you want or think you lost? I know people who only work a few months out of the year for just enough to get them by and they spend the rest of the year doing whatever they want.

BTW I have worked all my life and I have visited the whole world too, even walking on the frozen lands of Antarctica.

I do have a personal quote I will share with you “it is not how much you make that is important, but how much you spend”

What about all the horrible atrocities happening in Africa? If we were a nation that wanted to keep peace and save lives, then why aren't we taking military action against the dictators and killers that rule those countries? the situation there was 1000 times worse than it was in the middle east before this whole Iraq war ever started. If our priorities "as a nation" were peaceful and "of the people" then we would've actually done something to help those countries. We would've sent aide money.supplies directly to the people, not to their obviously corrupt governments. I piss on the flag.

Well we tried in Somalia (I was there) and it didn't work because the different factions that were fighting each other ALL decided to fight us instead. And we just wanted to protect the food aid coming in. For us to go in there and help them it would be Iraq x10. I think in the near future you will start seeing more of us there though what good it might have I do not know from our past experiences.

[edit on 9-9-2007 by Xtrozero]