Ruby Ridge revisited

Two weeks ago marked the 15th anniversary of the stand off, or massacre (depnding how you view it) at Ruby Ridge, and this date has seemingly passed by with little or no recognition as to it's significance in American history. For the sake of discussion I would like to revisit this event and find out what lessons were learned and what importance this tragedy has played in the modern survivalist and patriot movement.

My contention is that Randy Weaver and his family were not attacked and assaulted by federal agents due to the sale of some sawed off shotguns (which has later been determined to be entrapment), as the official ATF story goes, but were in fact targeted and made an example of by U.S. Marshalls and the FBI. It all boils down to a few key points.

1. Randy Weaver and his family were seperatists living in a cabin with no electricity or plumming. They grew their own food and hunted for meat, they were considered outer fringe by the powers that be.

2. Weaver was an ex Green Beret and an outspoken opponant of the NWO, the rogue US government, and the infringement on basic rights that were taking place in the early 90's. He was not shy about voicing his views and the boys in blue didn't like it.

3. Randy Weaver was loosely affiliated with the Aryan Nations, to which Weaver openly states was not because of ingrained racism, but more a means of seperatism. He has clearly stated that he did not follow or subscribe to the AN racist agenday of bigotry.

4. Weaver refused to turn states witness and testify on behalf of the FBI as to what he had seen and heard while attending seperatist movements and conferences. Basically he refused to wear a wire or rat out others in his movement. Hence the bogus gun charges, which were brought about by an FBI plant who was angry because of Weavers refusal to co-operate in their little witch hunt.

On August 21, 1992 Federal agents who were tresspassing on private property while spying on the Weaver household managed to arouse the attention of Sam Weavers (Randys 14 year old son) hunting dogs, and Sam and a family friend Kevin Harris went outside to investigate. Randy Weaver followed, all armed, and they split up and searched through the woods for whatever the alarm was all about. Federal Marshalls took up defensive positions and hid in the woods in an attempt to hide, but the dogs tracked them through the woods.

The group had strict orders that they were to avoid all contact with the Weaver family. According to a Department of Justice report on the incident, the Marshals were detected by the Weavers' dogs and began to retreat. Randy Weaver, his 14-year-old son Sammy[2] and his house guest, family friend Kevin Harris, left the house to investigate, all carrying firearms. The Department of Justice report corroborates this with a statement dictated by Randy Weaver to his daughter, in which he says that "Approximately 11:30 Friday morning....the dogs started barking like they always do when strangers walk up the driveway. Randy, Kevin, and Sam ran out to the rock with their weapons." The labrador, Striker, chased the marshals through the woods, and Sammy and Harris followed the dog. Eventually the marshals stopped retreating and took up defensive positions in the woods.

en.wikipedia.org...

The sequence of events during the ensuing shootout is disputed, with Harris saying that the camouflaged Marshals did not identify themselves and were the first to fire at Sammy's dog, which was approaching their position with Sammy close behind him. Sammy then fired at Marshal Roderick, who had shot the dog. The marshals' version of events is that they were fired upon first and only then returned fire.[2]According to Randy Weaver, after splitting up from Harris and Sammy Weaver, a man in full camo, leaped out in front of him and shouted: "Freeze Weaver!". Weaver responded to this with the words, "# you!" and then turned around and began to run back to the house. As he ran he called out to Harris and Sammy that it was an ambush and to get back to the house. Randy said he heard Sam reply "I'm coming Dad" and then heard shots being fired.Sammy and Harris had followed the dog through the woods when they confronted the Marshals. Sammy, according to Harris, then yelled "You shot Striker, you son of a bitch!", and fired twice at Marshal Roderick, the leader of the Special Operations Group. One or more Marshals returned fire, shooting Sam in the arm and spraying him in the back[2] with automatic weapon fire, killing him, as he ran back up the hill. Harris then shot and killed Marshal William Degan, and retreated up the hill himself where he found Sammy. It is also possible that Marshal Degan was killed by friendly fire as his autopsy showed he had been shot in the back with the bullet exiting through his chestAccording to evidence entered at the trial by prosecution witnesses (ballistics experts Martin Fackler and Lucien Haag), Art Roderick fired one shot, which killed the dog; Sammy Weaver fired three shots, to no effect; Marshal Bill Degan fired seven shots, one hitting Sammy Weaver's arm; Kevin Harris fired two shots, one killing Degan; and Larry Cooper fired six shots, one killing Sammy Weaver. Marshals Cooper and Roderick were not aware of Degan firing, and believed those shots came from the Weavers. There were nineteen shots fired in total.The next day, the FBI was called onto the scene with their Hostage Rescue Team (HRT). After the first day's events, the FBI HRT changed its usual rules of engagement, stating specifically that "deadly force can and should be used against any armed adult male if the shot could be taken without a child being injured." Deadly force could be used even before an announcement that the Weavers were surrounded and requesting their surrender. This was "unprecedented" and later found unconstitutional by a Justice Department task force

It gets better

Continued

[edit on 9/4/07 by BlackOps719]

[edit on 9/4/07 by BlackOps719]

I agree.

I personally feel that Ruby Ridge and Waco were instances of the intolerance of those who are different. For both cases there is little evidence to support the extreme measures that were taken. And for both cases it appears that the different in society were singled out and persecuted for their lifestyles.

A FBI sniper, Lon Horiuchi, shot and wounded Weaver in the right arm, while he was lifting the latch on a shed to visit the dead body of Sammy Weaver with others.[3] Then as Randy, his 16-year-old daughter Sara[2] and Harris ran back to the house, Horiuchi shot Vicki Weaver. Vicki Weaver was standing behind a door, unarmed and holding her 10-month-old baby Elishiba[2] in her arms, when the bullet struck her in the face, killing her.[1] The round then carried on, striking Harris in the left arm/chest.[3] A Justice Department review later found the second shot was unconstitutional and the lack of a request to surrender was "inexcusable", since Harris and the two Weavers were running for cover and could not pose an imminent threat. The task force also specifically blamed Horiuchi for firing at the door, not knowing whether someone was on the other side of it, along with those who had decided on the special rules of engagement allowing shots to be fired with no request for surrender.[3]The sniper's two shots were fired at 6:00pm 22 Aug1992; the Weavers did not return fire but retreated to the cabin. At 6:30pm, an armored personnel carrier came to the cabin and announced the presence of law enforcement. According to the Weavers, this was the first formal announcement of the presence of law enforcement.

After all of this, the Fed's still attempted to charge Weaver with several bogus claims. He was subsequently aquitted on all but one charge, the original failure to appear that started the whole mess. He was fined and released, having been found innocent of murder due to self defense.

Please keep in mind that this has already happened once and more or less forgotten about and swept under the rug. I felt that now would be a great time to revisit this horrible incident in light of the threats and dangers that we as American citizens face from our current administration. But you probably say "Come on, how can a man who had commited no real crime have his home invaded by Government storm troopers, have his 14 year old son and wife (who was holding an infant) shot dead in cold blood, have his dogs shot and killed, he himself shot and almost killed, have his home invaded and be drug off to sentencing for trumped up gun charges?"

It happened. Never forget. And it CAN happen again.

My biggest question after all the dust settles is simple......what exactly WERE those agents doing outside of the Weaver home that day on Ruby Ridge? Why were they even there? Hiding in the bushes, spying yes, but what right did they have to even be there? The whole thing makes me sick.

How does this story, as an American or otherwise, make you feel towards your friendly federal government?


[edit on 9/4/07 by BlackOps719]

Originally posted by Valhall
I agree.

I personally feel that Ruby Ridge and Waco were instances of the intolerance of those who are different. For both cases there is little evidence to support the extreme measures that were taken. And for both cases it appears that the different in society were singled out and persecuted for their lifestyles.

I'm not so sure about Waco, for David had an apocalyptic agenda, but they most surely fueled the fires of the end of the world for him.

Ruby Ridge I think was totally different. How did they know whether they were the Feds or White supremist coming to take them out? I also feel if the Feds just drove up there in one car fully marked with backup a good distance back the outcome would have been different. That over use of force has a tendency to determine the outcome just by the force involved.

You jump out and shoot my dog and then what? Am I expected to just stop and put my gun on the ground? Then you shoot my family member and I finally figure out who you are well guess what the gears are already set in motion. When those Feds moved in what were they supecting was going to happen? I guess they could tell them "sorry you all didn't get the memo we were coming today".

The chances of a one agent going their to talk to them and get shot would had been most likely next to nothing.


[edit on 4-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

For those who may be curious as to the outcome, or in question of who was right and who was wrong -

Many FBI employees' reputations were ruined over the incident, most notably Deputy Director Larry Potts. E. Michael Kahoe, chief of the Bureau's Violent Crimes and Major Offenders section, pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice for attempting to destroy all copies of the FBI's internal report on Ruby Ridge.[9] Six officers were suspended for allegedly attempting to cover up their roles in the Ruby Ridge incident,[10] and overall 12 officers were disciplined for their roles in the siege.[3]The US Senate in September 1995 held hearings on the Ruby Ridge incident and, in December, released a report detailing the handling of the incident. The Senate offered harsh criticism to the federal agencies involved, calling their handling of the incident a "chain of mistakes" that led to the three deaths. The committee alleged that through its conduct, the FBI had weakened trust between government and its citizens. The specific agencies at fault included the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the FBI, the US Marshals Service and the office of the US attorney in Idaho.[11]FBI Director Louis Freeh told the Senate committee, "At Ruby Ridge, the F.B.I. did not perform at the level which the American people expect or deserve from the F.B.I. Indeed, for the F.B.I., Ruby Ridge was a series of terribly flawed law-enforcement operations with tragic consequences."[12]The surviving members of the Weaver family filed a wrongful death suit and Randy Weaver received a $100,000 settlement while his daughters received $1 million each. Weaver wrote a 1998 paperback book, The Federal Siege At Ruby Ridge, about the incident.In 1997, the Boundary County, Idaho district attorney charged Horiuchi with involuntary manslaughter, but the indictment was removed to federal jurisdiction based on the Supremacy Clause. The indictment was dismissed first by the Federal District Court, and the dismissal was reversed by an en banc panel of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Shortly after the 9th Circuit issued its decision, the prosecutor moved to dismiss the case, and the U.S. District Court granted the motion on June 26, 2001

At least some reperations were made...certainly a small gesture considering the man lost half of his family.

You jump out and shoot my dog and then what? Am I expected to just stop and put my gun on the ground? Then you shoot my family member and I finally figure out who you are well guess what the gears are already set in motion. When those Feds moved in what were they supecting was going to happen? I guess they could tell them "sorry you all didn't get the memo we were coming today".

Agreed 100%. The entire thing was blundered from the start. I dont know about you, but if men in fatigues shoot my dog while trespassing on my property unannounced would not be met kindly. Thing is, they didn't even attempt to negotiate or reason, they shot a 14 year old boy, a dog, and an unarmed woman holding a new born. If our government agencies have this type of capacity for viciousness and brutality they are quite capable of ANYTHING.

You're using some particularly emotive language there. Take a breath and a step back for a moment.

We don't know 100% what happened. There are disputed facts. We shouldn't second guess anyone, especially the FBI guys who were just there to take a bad guy off the streets.

Originally posted by DeltaNine
You're using some particularly emotive language there. Take a breath and a step back for a moment.

We don't know 100% what happened. There are disputed facts. We shouldn't second guess anyone, especially the FBI guys who were just there to take a bad guy off the streets.

To take a "bad guy" off the streets, eh?

Please elaborate a bit as to what would constitute Weaver being a bad guy? Because he lived in the mountains and chose to drop out of mainstream society life?

Because he disagreed with the Federal government and it's policies?

Was he a bad guy because he refused to testify on behalf of the FBI during their bogus, illegal infiltration and coersion experiment?

What would you have to do in order to justify having your home and property violated, your children murdered, your wife shot dead in cold blood, and your human rights trampled on?

What exactly, in your opinion, did Randy Weaver do that would warrant such retaliation?

And yes, the story has been confirmed, in a court of law by the same Federal officials and agents who were in fact responsible for the crimes" that took place. The "we don't know 100% what happened argument doesn't hold water considering the massive amount of evidence that has been released during and after the trial.

What specific facts do you dispute or take issue with? I am not being rude and my intentions are not to be argumentative but I would like for you to back your claims, or at least provide some specific opinions. Because if you are attempting to paint a rosier, less condemning picture of the FBI agents and what they actually did those days in question I would love to hear your side of it.

I do not see where I have done anything but recant the true story of what actually took place based on eye witness testimony, and if the real, unedited story makes you uncomfortable then I apologize. It makes me uncomfortable too.

I would extend a courteous challenge to anyone here on ATS to present me with a rational, reasonable justification for the actions of the ATF and US Marshalls that day on Ruby Ridge. If you believe that I have posted half truths or if you believe that we are lacking the full story or entire story, please give me your best shot at defending or at least justifying the actions of our government and the actions that were taken during this event. If Randy Weaver "got what he deserved" as some seem to believe, please enlighten me as to why you would feel that way and what led you to this conclusion. I am genuinely curious.

I welcome any and all replies.


Regards - Black

Just imagine how often this sort of thing happens without being publicly known.

What I meant was, you've got the benefit of hindsight (which as we all know is 20/20). As far as HRT knew he was a guy who had shot a Federal agent, not the entire backstory.

Originally posted by DeltaNine
What I meant was, you've got the benefit of hindsight (which as we all know is 20/20). As far as HRT knew he was a guy who had shot a Federal agent, not the entire backstory.

What about the FBI agents who were there meddling in the woods to begin with, trespassing on private property, armed and trigger happy? What right did they have to shoot the Weavers dog, then basically ambush his 14 year old son with a hail of gun fire? They never identified themselves, they never made an attempt to fall back, they were the first to fire shots and they never belonged there to begin with. At this point Randy Weaver had never even fired a shot, so they had no reason whatsoever to believe that was a threat to anyone.

Even after the shoot out and subsequent death of Sam Weaver and Agent Degan, even in all of the confusion, what could have possibly justified what took place thereafter?

1.) they shot Randy Weaver through his chest as he attempted to get into the shed to retrieve his dead son. No threat

2.) snipers shot and killed Vicki Weaver, who was standing in a doorway holding a baby and posing absolutely no threat to anyone. Funny enough the shot also hit Kevin Harris, in the back, as he was fleeing and attempting to go inside of the house.

3.) Federal agents then proceeded to terrorize this mans family for hours on end while holding them hostage inside of their home.


When FBI agents initially came to the Weaver property Randy Weaver had been guilty of harming noone. They initiated the armed conflict, the feds fired the first shots, and for all they knew Randy Weaver had not harmed a soul at that point.

And even after the first shootings, even if they suspected Weaver of killing one of those agents, they had absolutely no right to butcher the mans family the way they did. Shooting people in the back? Shooting unarmed women? You can spin it any way you like, but the fact remains that their actions were abominable and heinous at best. Pre meditated murder if you ask me, but that is just my own opinion.



[edit on 9/6/07 by BlackOps719]

I saw this yesterday or the day before The Final Report: Standoff at Ruby Ridge It tells it how it all went down and asked the hard questions involving what happened and why. This incident was and is a disgrace to our country.

1 The FBI labeled Weaver as belonging to the Aryan Nations, this was not true.

2 The FBI had a informant[undercover cop] in a local Aryan Nations group who had been exposed and they desperately needed another informant.

3 Weaver lived off the land, so when some one offered him money to cut some barrel down on some shotguns what did you expect he would say it was Easy money, Weaver claimed they were legal at 18.5 inches long when he got paid [legal] but the officers cut them further making them illegal.

4 They told weaver, [the authorities] that if he would be a informant he would not be charged, he told them he would not spy/or snitch on his neighbors.

5 When he missed his court date it was not his fault it was a error made by the court.

6 After missing his court date they put him under surveillance for like 18 months before they Accidentally drew the attention of one of there dogs, Weaver his son and the other dude separated and went investigating.

18 months surveillance for a couple of sawed off shotguns....nutz

Good show you should all watch it, and pay attention to his neighbors reaction to the whole thing, civil war could have broken out right there.

[edit on 21-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

I've got a signed copy of Mr. Weaver's and his daughter's book.
It opened my eyes as a new christian.
Apparently the authorities were in the woods and when noticed by the dog, they shot it and since the Boy had a gun and 'supposedly' brought it up to fire it, they shot him.
One of the saddest parts after they shot Mrs. Weaver and her son, was when they sent a robot with a shotgun taped facing the phone it carried, asking for them to answer. The voice on the speaker told them as they were holed up, fearing for thier lives, "We're having pancakes, what's your mother fixing?" Or something like that, knowing her dead body was near her daughter!!!
I sent a note thanking Mr.Arlon Spector for his help that he gave the family. I believe if it wasn't for the friend's that were camped at the end of the driveway, I think Texx Mars was one of them, they would have all been killed.
What courage to take them to court and he came out with pretty good results.

[edit on 21-9-2007 by Clearskies]

reply to post by BlackOps719


If anyone still has doubts as to whether our government or military will fire on their fellow citizens then I dont know what else can be said to convince you..
This forum was built on the ideas that the government doesnt always tell us the truth but anytime something like this happens, most people swallow the official story, hook, line and sinker.
95% of the time that people cite their "evidence" when making a point, the evidence that they cite comes from the media.. where does the media get their information in cases like this? the government!

Originally posted by Clearskies
I've got a signed copy of Mr. Weaver's and his daughter's book.
It opened my eyes as a new christian.
Apparently the authorities were in the woods and when noticed by the dog, they shot it and since the Boy had a gun and 'supposedly' brought it up to fire it, they shot him.
One of the saddest parts after they shot Mrs. Weaver and her son, was when they sent a robot with a shotgun taped facing the phone it carried, asking for them to answer. The voice on the speaker told them as they were holed up, fearing for thier lives, "We're having pancakes, what's your mother fixing?" Or something like that, knowing her dead body was near her daughter!!!
I sent a note thanking Mr.Arlon Spector for his help that he gave the family. I believe if it wasn't for the friend's that were camped at the end of the driveway, I think Texx Mars was one of them, they would have all been killed.
What courage to take them to court and he came out with pretty good results.

[edit on 21-9-2007 by Clearskies]

:


I agree with you completely, if there had not been friends and news media camped all over the Weaver property I am almost 100% certain that the Feds would have decimated that house and butchered the entire family. They definately did not seem to have any problem with doing it in Waco, which was a different situation, but at the end of the day the ATF was responsible for the deaths of all of those people.

Face it folks, there is blood on the hands of the government storm troopers. Our tax dollars hard at work, used to trample the rights of American citizens and used to shut them up for good if need be. Just look at the recent surge in police violence against unarmed citizens. Tasering college kids, beating elderly women, attacking and electrocuting unarmed people, and these are only the occurances that we know about.

The Brown Shirts are everywhere, listening to your phone calls, curbing your rights to free speech, waiting for you to step out of line so they can come and "straighten you out". Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood law officer who was revered and looked upon with respect by all? What happened to the police officers who had an interest in upholding the motto Protect and Serve? Seems to me that most people are more fearful of the police than the criminals in this day and age.

The days of the helpful law enforcement officer have passed, they have now been replaced by jack booted thugs who beat handicapped people and shoot unarmed women and operate with no regard for human rights. I realize that ALL police and law enforcement are not like this, but the facts don't lie. I have never been one to put a lot of stock into claims of police mistreatment or unlawful arrest in the past, but knowing what I know today it makes me wonder just how many innocent people have been railroaded right into lengthy prison sentances by our corrupt police and our equally power mad judicial system. Makes you wonder how many innocent men are rotting away in our prisons as we speak.

dn:

Not being an American I had no idea about this. Thanks for sharing




Still in shock that your own government can do this.



Seems if you are self sufficient and not part of the system you are a threat.



Should give something for our ATS survivalists to think about, i doubt its in anyones game plan

Originally posted by Valhall
I agree.

I personally feel that Ruby Ridge and Waco were instances of the intolerance of those who are different.

Ruby Ridge indeed was a gross misjudgment of character but the Waco tragedy was not. The people of the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel were a obtaining a large number of weapons and were planning on some unspeakable things. I understand the situation could have been handled better but the complex had burst into flames because the members of the Branch Dividian had done this themselves. Vernon Wayne Howell, better known as David Koresh. Had also slept with the children of the Branch Dividian. These are facts I a have amassed from hours of research if any are wrong please tell me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Ruby Ridge conflict disgusts me because it was avoidable. Randy Weaver associated with Aryan Nations because he felt they shared a similar view of his own. He was then approached by undercover FBI officials and ask to saw off the barrels of the shotguns which he did for a large sum of money (This is the entrapment). He received a letter telling him the wrong court date and so he was home preparing for the Date. The spying began after Randy weaver failed to attend the court date. Instead of contacting Randy Weaver after learning of the typo they tried to apprehend him. Instead Weaver hunkered down in his rural home. The FBI began spying a short while after. (Cont. @ en.wikipedia.org... )

There a some books out that tell all about the seige at Ruby ridge.

The Federal Siege At Ruby Ridge: In Our Own Words (Paperback)
by Randy Weaver
Randy Weaver (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250879858&sr=1-1

Ruby Ridge: The Truth and Tragedy of the Randy Weaver Family
by Jess Walter
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250879858&sr=1-3

Ambush at Ruby Ridge : How Government Agents Set Randy Weaver Up and Took His Family Down
by Alan W. Bock
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250879858&sr=1-4

As a Patriotic American, my advice is that we never forget what our government, in the persons of the Federal Marshals, did to the Weaver family, without provocation, without probably cause, and without proper authority. This could happen to any one of you, just try leaving the "Grid" and living off the land, and speaking to a few fringe groups, and see what happens.

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Starred and Flagged!

Even in Australia this was a very big story and I followed it intently at the time but the only thing that was truly burned into my mind was the daughters response to a reporter who stupidly asked her if she felt good about her million $ settlement and she glared at him and said that she'd rather have her mum back thanks all the same! YOU GO GIRL!

Personal Disclosure: The actions of L.E.O's [AKA State sanctioned protection rackett] EVERYWHERE makes me so that I can't help but .
I'm NOT a Victim and I can take care of myself thanks all the same! It seems to me that even with ruined careers that the LEO's in this case got off lightly in comparision with their victims! Its so disgusting that these ego deficient anthropic throwbacks to the shallow end of the pool got treated as sacred cows! TOTALLY PATHETIC!

Edited Spelling.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by OmegaLogos]