To those survivalist willing to fight the government...

Originally posted by mushninja
Continuation....


The UN and American forces mentioned above now have years of experince fighting civilians that are defending their homeland in an urban setting. Whats more, they have RPGs, and a wide range of other stuff that you don't have. And they are kicking their asses. Do you reallly think you and you deer rifle are going to stop a unit of experinced soliders rolling tanks and 50 cal machine guns? I'm not saying we don't have a chance or shouldn't fight, # no. Just saying, it ain't going to be like the movies and it ain't going to be like you think. I think we are mostly screwed and mostly big talking cowards. I think we would do best to avoid such things by rising up and being heard NOW. Not taking this anymore, refusing to play this game while standing together. They only have the power and athority you give them. If we all stood up and spoke/acted as one tomorrow just think what we could do!!! Who is with me???!!!! Yeeeaaaahh, didn't think so.

A fair post, but one that is posted by someone who hasn't actually worked with UN troops.
I have, they are practically useless unless you use American or British troops to bolster them.
Believe me, we Brits have long memories and I can see a big 2 fingers going up if the UN told us we'd be deploying to the USA again on a 'peace-keeping role or otherwise'.
All other nations tend to be a lot more defensive and hate to go on the offensive. The reason? It's a lot more dangerous to go out and look for the enemy than it is to sit tight and do nothing in the bases.
Think I'm talking bs? Look at where all the major operations in Afganistan and Iraq are happening and look which nationalities are doing the offensive work. It is almost always Brits or US forces.
You want to see how effective the UN is at even being a defensive entity?
Then just look how the Dutch failed at doing that in Srebrenica, Bosnia.
And I'd wager that the local populace in the States would be a lot more defiant than meek civilians in Bosnia.

Being a soldier fighting civil inssurection is a major head-ache, the enemy is hidden and won't fight conventionally.
The Northern Island conflict would be a paradise compared to an army trying to pacify a US population.
A survivalist wouldn't have to fight. But he/she wouldn't have to co-operate either.
It's not rocket science to fight against an armies infrastructure.

If you want a historical example, just look at your very own war of independence. You fought against a government then and pulled victory out of the bag.
But it seems that threads like this bring out a fair few defeatists in you.

You all seem to forget one thing. A Government that is hell-bent on taking over its own population does not have to play by the rules. Do you think the Nazis in WW2 played by the rules with their own populace?

No matter how many of the populace has guns, only a small minority will actually use them. How so you say!

If the Government Forces drag your kids or wife out onto the street and threatens to shoot them, how quick are you going to be in surrendering your arms?

It would only need one small town to have its women and children massacred like the above scenario for the rest of the country to cave in.

Remember, everyone has a weak spot. The key to any force is to exploit it.

I don't know what Type of fantasy , movie bs is is playing in your heads , but this my friend is NOT reality. People in the Military are "PEOPLE" not mindless robots with blind obedience to orders... the reason It is easier to kill in other countries of other ethnicities is because the people are dehumanized... They are seen as animals and not humans like you or I , thats why they are given ethnic slurs. Ask yourself... is it harder to kill mohammed father of 2 boys and one girl who is happily maried and is a farmer...or that "Dirty Haji"? Its like hunting , only the prey shoot back. now take these same folks into anytown usa and have them shoot at people that speak in their drawl weather it be "Nawlins" , "Bah-ston" or New Yahk... and shoot at people that look like themselves. psychologically it becomes harder. In addition the federal government and the military don't intergrate smoothly. let alone the military by itself (anyone ever involved in CAX or Rimpac) can attest to that. SO now you are going to have small municipalities , county sheriffs , state police , national guard , Marines , Soldiers , Navy ,AF & coast guard all going by the same playbook?... not to mention the alphabet gangs CIA , NSA , FBI... our government is NOT that structured. I've been in the Marine Corps and my job was 0231 (Intel) , I've also worked for the local Sheriff's Department as a corrections officer. So on paper I probably look like "One OF Them" when I am anything but. Most people in the military and law enforcement are normal folk like you and I , It is actually a small percentage that could be catagorized as psychotic and actually enjoy killing. (SOCOM and other assorted operators)... My Loyalty (like most of us) is to my family and their protection at all costs. And yes I would lay my life down to protect them.

reply to post by infiltr8u


Joe Blow Redneck ain't stupid enough to pull a frontal assault on men armed with fully auto weapons. He's going to be set up just below the crest of a ridge in full hunting camo or from a blind with his quad setting out of view of the ambush for his getaway. He's going to take 1-5 shots with scoped bolt action rifle firing .300 WSM from 400-600 yards with his buddies sitting at 90 degrees from Blackwaters flank spraying them with covering fire. He will kill or wound with every one of his shots while his buddies spray the flank of the Blackwater goons. 20-30 seconds later, it's over and he's gone leaving more than one Blackwater Merc dead or bleeding.

JBR will be ex-Army or Marine infantry or Air Force Airbase Ground Defense with 2+plus tours of Iraq or Afghanistan. There are 24 million US vets and at least 10% were frontline combat troops from Vietnam, Desert Storm and Iraq/Afghanistan. Not some dress wearing jihadist bent on his own death.

The wannabees might get themselves killed fighting like the Jihadists but many veterans will plan an execute hit and run ambushes on Blackwater with little or no fear of casualties.

Blackwater was given protection and immunity from the Iraqis by the US military. They'll have no such protection in the US. I know quite a few Marines and Army infantry troops who really hated Blackwater for their butt clown behavior which only made things tougher for the Marines/Army to deal with once they skeedaddled back to the green zones. I've heard of at least one little band of Blackwater merc's who didn't make it back to the Green Zone but there wasn't any insurgents in the area on the way back if you get my drift.

Post removed because I've decided not to support this type of speculation that can be used for the wrong purposes.

[edit on 24-9-2008 by verylowfrequency]

Joe Blow Redneck ain't stupid enough to pull a frontal assault on men armed with fully auto weapons. He's going to be set up just below the crest of a ridge in full hunting camo or from a blind with his quad setting out of view of the ambush for his getaway. He's going to take 1-5 shots with scoped bolt action rifle firing .300 WSM from 400-600 yards with his buddies sitting at 90 degrees from Blackwaters flank spraying them with covering fire. He will kill or wound with every one of his shots while his buddies spray the flank of the Blackwater goons. 20-30 seconds later, it's over and he's gone leaving more than one Blackwater Merc dead or bleeding.

JBR will be ex-Army or Marine infantry or Air Force Airbase Ground Defense with 2+plus tours of Iraq or Afghanistan. There are 24 million US vets and at least 10% were frontline combat troops from Vietnam, Desert Storm and Iraq/Afghanistan. Not some dress wearing jihadist bent on his own death.

US combat vets would be friendly and get inside there compounds and slowly poison them. a little Mercury??, do they get drug tested small amounts of illegal drugs mixed with there food will fix that.
We would take diabetic syringes and use the needle to slowly bleed down the brake system on there vehicles. How would you like to be speeding to a firefight and find you have no brakes.
We would leave tampered ammo around there quarters for them to put in there weapons. a little C4 reload goes a long way.
Tamper with the electrical system in there barracks so that the system starts fires.
Maybe a little ball of C4 in the tail pipe.

The french resistance during WW2 killed more German troops by sabotage then in gunfights

Let the criminals get into the gunfights with the gov troops. Us veterans are smarter then that.

Though the single shot from the dark can have a use in warfare as it rattles nerves of your opponite even if it misses.

Any time a enemy sniper can fire one shot and get away troops start slowing down because they are waiting for the next shot.

Fire more then one shot at a time and the enemy will pinpoint you and return maximum firepower on you location.

vietnam vet

[edit on 5-11-2008 by ANNED]

[edit on 5-11-2008 by ANNED]

Originally posted by Wotan
You all seem to forget one thing. A Government that is hell-bent on taking over its own population does not have to play by the rules. Do you think the Nazis in WW2 played by the rules with their own populace?

No matter how many of the populace has guns, only a small minority will actually use them. How so you say!

If the Government Forces drag your kids or wife out onto the street and threatens to shoot them, how quick are you going to be in surrendering your arms?

lol when did the Nazis ever do that to those they deemed their citizens ? The reason the Nazi party rose in power was because of what the allies did after WW1. The french having a major say in what was effectively a war fought by the Commonwealth and yanks towards the end. Because they were afraid of it happening again.

yea they probably did that to the jewish population and the others they didn't want there, but they didn't consider them to be citizens.

If your going to use history as an example at least get it right!!

and threats like that will only fuel anger and hate in the populace. They may work in the short term but the people will develop a back bone and start to fight back.

And as for the soldiers turning on the population, I'd say some would. Take the UK many of our troops are not British. Why would they care about killing British civvies ? they wouldn't!
If the Army did attack then your kidding yourselves into thinking a few civvies with naff all experience to combat experienced soldiers could win. Yeah the few with military experience would know better and would bug out to wage a gorilla style war, but civvies doing that would lead to a lot of dead.

The film "red dawn" always made me laugh, a few kids taking on the USSR's elite troops and winning! It doesn't happen like that

You might kill a few but you wouldn't be able to take out the aircraft or armour, and how would you really respond to seeing a battalion of fully armed troops heading your way?!?!? Either you run or you die. There is no dishonour in retreating to survive and mount an effective defence.

I'd like to see anyone of the people on here without military background try and take on just 1 squaddy!



[edit on 5-11-2008 by IntoTheVortex]

Originally posted by ANNED

J
Maybe a little ball of C4 in the tail pipe.

demonstrates my point exactly!!!!!!! C4 doesnt explode through thermal reaction. It's detonated via an electrical impulse. You can burn and even eat C4 if you really wanted to and it wouldn't explode.

why not try a banana too for good measure! that ought to slow down the army!!!!!!!!!

sneaking in to a barracks....... WHAT!!!!! come on either you have the worlds most dumb army or you think your super human! that's the realms of the SAS and other special forces, not a pipe dream of some overly stimulated person!

draining the brake fluid ?? you seen any up armoured military vehicles ???? I guess not!

It's people like you that get others dead.

[edit on 5-11-2008 by IntoTheVortex]

demonstrates my point exactly!!!!!!! C4 doesnt explode through thermal reaction. It's detonated via an electrical impulse. You can burn and even eat C4 if you really wanted to and it wouldn't explode.

why not try a banana too for good measure! that ought to slow down the army!!!!!!!!!

sneaking in to a barracks....... WHAT!!!!! come on either you have the worlds most dumb army or you think your super human! that's the realms of the SAS and other special forces, not a pipe dream of some overly stimulated person!
up armoure
draining the brake fluid ?? you seen any of the up armered military vehicles ???? I guess not!

(one) i worked for years as a mine blaster and i am not going to give a step by step training course for the wannabee mad bomber out there but you can put C4 up the tailpipe of a car and get it to explode.(i left something out on purpose,)
en.wikipedia.org...(explosive)
troops in Vietnam found out that you did not want to put out C4 by stomping on it. With RDX the explosive in C4 Shock sensitivity and Friction sensitivity increase with temperature.
And electrical shock will not set it off in most cases.(it "might" detonate if hit with 450 VA or higher.or "lightning" but this is caused by point melting and friction)
The small wires you see coming from a set charge are from a electrical blasting cap

Eat C4 you are kidding again RDX is toxic and can cause seizures

(two)Sneaking in to a barracks. WHY you have to be kidding US military troops in combat zones have a long history of hiring locals to do the cleaning, cooking and washing around there bases.
Just ask any Vietnam Vet about the VC that worked on there bases and camps.
Only in Iraq has the US military got smart and hired Halliburton/KBR to do the dirty work instead of local in-digs. do you think that in the US the military is going to import workers.

(three) Not all troops use armored vehicles like tanks and APCs
The most common vehicles used are Humvee and it is easy to get to the brake lines on many of them. not all are up graded.
and most of the up armored military vehicles are in Iraq or afghanistan
most of the ones left in the states are the older versions

killing people(the enemy) is the idea


You should just read the post and not add you own interpretation to what is said.
trolls do that.

[edit on 6-11-2008 by ANNED]

[edit on 6-11-2008 by ANNED]

so your wanting a bunch of untrained people to infiltrate a military base ? regardless of who is doing the guarding it's still expecting a lot that those people wont get cut down very very quickly when spotted.

I never said you'd want to eat it, my point was that it wouldn't detonate! and maybe you can use c4 in that manner or not. But again how would a bunch of untrained people know that! let alone regular soldiers ?!?!

and do you really think if sitX happened and it was serious enough to cause massive social unrest the 'gov would leave all their best gear / combat hardened troops in some # hole war zone? and how often do you see the army leaving any vehicle unsupervised in a combat zone?

oh so lets sneak up on the soldiers in their heavily armoured humvee's cos obviously they've never been in fibua before and try and plant some C4 we've managed to acquire whilst assaulting a defended military base and blow up something even though we don't have a clue how to use the gear?? lol so yes obviously I am a troll, but at least I wouldn't get people killed on pointless assaults that they are ill trained and equipped to carry out..... DAM with civvies like that why do you even need special forces?

knowing what the people under you command can and cannot do is a pretty important in making sure they don't get killed in a pointless operation.

Originally posted by IntoTheVortex

Originally posted by Wotan
You all seem to forget one thing. A Government that is hell-bent on taking over its own population does not have to play by the rules. Do you think the Nazis in WW2 played by the rules with their own populace?

No matter how many of the populace has guns, only a small minority will actually use them. How so you say!

If the Government Forces drag your kids or wife out onto the street and threatens to shoot them, how quick are you going to be in surrendering your arms?

lol when did the Nazis ever do that to those they deemed their citizens ? The reason the Nazi party rose in power was because of what the allies did after WW1. The french having a major say in what was effectively a war fought by the Commonwealth and yanks towards the end. Because they were afraid of it happening again.

yea they probably did that to the jewish population and the others they didn't want there, but they didn't consider them to be citizens.

If your going to use history as an example at least get it right!!

and threats like that will only fuel anger and hate in the populace. They may work in the short term but the people will develop a back bone and start to fight back.

And as for the soldiers turning on the population, I'd say some would. Take the UK many of our troops are not British. Why would they care about killing British civvies ? they wouldn't!
If the Army did attack then your kidding yourselves into thinking a few civvies with naff all experience to combat experienced soldiers could win. Yeah the few with military experience would know better and would bug out to wage a gorilla style war, but civvies doing that would lead to a lot of dead.

The film "red dawn" always made me laugh, a few kids taking on the USSR's elite troops and winning! It doesn't happen like that

You might kill a few but you wouldn't be able to take out the aircraft or armour, and how would you really respond to seeing a battalion of fully armed troops heading your way?!?!? Either you run or you die. There is no dishonour in retreating to survive and mount an effective defence.

I'd like to see anyone of the people on here without military background try and take on just 1 squaddy!



[edit on 5-11-2008 by IntoTheVortex]

On the composition of British forces.

You do realise that an overwhelming majority of them are white caucasian British don't you? The only segment that may cause trouble against civilians are the Ghurkas, but they are typically friendly towards white British so would be reluctant to open fire on civvys.

Yes taking on a line-infantry county regiment soldier (aka a Squaddie) is probably unwise 1 on 1.
But plenty of non-teeth arm troops aren't usually as hardened and agressive.
You really do jump into the stake pit with some blaise comments.

However the rest of your post was ok though.

Why all of you even talk about killing each other when it's the government that's evil! Why not turn your guns to where it counts on the GOVERNMENT and other elite assholes that causes all this # in the first place. Let's go back to peace and helping our neighbours so we can live again without looking over our shoulders or trying to protect our loved ones! Sounds like none of you have a clue just a bunch of egos running around seeing who's tougher! Do what's actually right for a nice refreshing change. Do you like being controlled and killed by your own government? Wake the Hell up! Who's actually going to be the "real" and "big" men here? Not just boys with their toys.

I think the point is more of a question of "how" do you choose to live?

Scenario:
Your guns have been taken away and life goes on. An intruder breaks into your house. You are now having to defend not only your life but the life of you wife and kids, also. Not to mention if you die first, what atrocities they may instill on your wife before they decide to kill. Now, you have a few options for defending yourself: rely on a "Brinks" security to answer your house alarm if it was set off, tell the perpetrator to hold a moment while 911 is called and you wait for the police to arrive, grab a (baseball bat, knife, scissors, something to throw at them (shoes?)) since these are now your only options besides hand to hand combat.

I for one will do everything possible (legal or not) to defend any chance of this from happening.

This is yet one reason why cops and criminals should not be the only ones armed.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Why all of you even talk about killing each other when it's the government that's evil! Why not turn your guns to where it counts on the GOVERNMENT and other elite assholes that causes all this # in the first place. Let's go back to peace and helping our neighbours so we can live again without looking over our shoulders or trying to protect our loved ones!

Sounds like none of you have a clue just a bunch of egos running around seeing who's tougher! Do what's actually right for a nice refreshing change. Do you like being controlled and killed by your own government? Wake the Hell up! Who's actually going to be the "real" and "big" men here? Not just boys with their toys.

Erm both the US and Uk governments are democratically elected by the people, most anti government types I have come across tend to be Americans who dont think they should have to live under any laws, nor pay any taxes.

Originally posted by Amaxium
I think the point is more of a question of "how" do you choose to live?

Scenario:
Your guns have been taken away and life goes on. An intruder breaks into your house. You are now having to defend not only your life but the life of you wife and kids, also. Not to mention if you die first, what atrocities they may instill on your wife before they decide to kill. Now, you have a few options for defending yourself: rely on a "Brinks" security to answer your house alarm if it was set off, tell the perpetrator to hold a moment while 911 is called and you wait for the police to arrive, grab a (baseball bat, knife, scissors, something to throw at them (shoes?)) since these are now your only options besides hand to hand combat.

I for one will do everything possible (legal or not) to defend any chance of this from happening.

This is yet one reason why cops and criminals should not be the only ones armed.

Sadly there does not appear to be a sensible middle ground to gun ownership , In the Uk the laws have gone to far and people get arrested for trying to protect themselves, like Tony Martin the farmer who shot dead some scum breaking into his home for the fourth time, and after the police had told him they would niot attend burglary calls from his remote house, compared to the other end of the spectrum where 30,000 Americans each year die due to gun violence, including infants, tourists, family members, classrooms full of kids etc etc roughly 580 people a week get shot in the US. Theres no balance between the current american obseession of dealing with every problem or disagreement by shooting people, and the british problem of prosecuting people for smacking a burglars head in with a golf club. Its clear self defence laws in both countries need changing, Easing off in the UK, and drasdtically tightening up in the US.

I wish you were right but my guess is less than 1% of gun owners would use violence to protect their rights.

I don't plan to ether, My plan is to turn off the water and power to LA calif just to the south of me and when the riots start blackwater and any government troops are all tied up on that.
I will fade out of sight to somewhere in rural Nevada and by the time they get to me i will have my guns hidden so that they can not find them.

I have many ways to fight them without guns or combat.

Think infrastructure like transportation power water gas.
with out these everything comes to a halt.

Monkey wrenching was a favorite of the treehuggers.

I worked construction and i know a lot more about how thing work and how to break them.

May I check in here? I know many who are more than ready to fight, and some of them have machine guns that they have legally bought. There is a lot of firepower here in the backwaters, make no mistake about it. Now all I have is an antique Civil War pistol, but it will blow a hole the size of a silver dollar in a man, I have 6 shots, then I must manually reload. think that will stop me? think again. I may be old, and I may have an old gun, but to fire it just once at those who oppress the American People will make me very happy as I go down, I will join those who also gave their all for American freedom. If the military thinks for one second that Americas won't fire on them for siding with the oppressive government, they had better think again.
May I suggest the reader watch these videos?







Then watch this one, just for a related thought...



This country was fought for many times in the past, and Americans may seem to be lazy, but try and take away the the things the enjoy, and see what happens.