Ignorance and God

I started reading the bible, then I put it down when I started to come across things like the following, withing the bible. For some reason it does not make sense of a loving god...



While you are at it.









[edit on 29-8-2007 by souls]

Originally posted by JohnDoe43
without any doubt that God exists not from faith alone but also through experience.
[edit on 26-8-2007 by JohnDoe43]

faith is defying rationality, hence ignorant.
having absolute certainty on anything, or not having any doubt is also ignorant. its ignorant not to be subjective and challenge things.

your god loves
slavery
discrimination (homosexuality, sexism)
killing atheists

or is this just a misinterpretation?

I do not deny or accept the existance of a divine being.

I believe having faith in yourself is and always has been the most essential belief we need.

The biggest conspiracy in the world is the demoralizing of society and alienation and distance we feel from people we meet everyday.

It saddens me to read that fear determines belief. So many people thinking in their minds that believing by default out of fear of the unknown saves them from eternal damnation.

Do not live in fear, but acceptance and open-mindedness, and then find the divinity within yourself and then you will be capable of great things.

Back on topic:

These boards are for the skeptic and the believer alike. rather then coming here asking others to change their posts and ideas, come here and post your beliefs and share your experiences and let people take from it what they will.

I agree that both parties should just live and let be but that will never happen. I too was one who searched for God and I know the Bible better then most self professed good Christians. The biggest argument I have against the Christian God is simply this. Supposedly he is a being of love. I am only human. Yet, in my heart could I condemn anyone to suffer for all eternity? No, I couldn't. Even the worst people will eventually have served there sentence. If I a lowly mortal can think this way then what does that say about this God of love?

For those that say we have searched in the wrong places and asked the wrong people I provide this excerpt from one of Mother Theresa's letters.

"Where I try to raise my thoughts to heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul. Love -- the word -- it brings nothing,"

So then did she look in the wrong place too? They say this struggle was part of God's plan. He was testing her. Yeah, that's sounds real nice.
Be careful of experience. Just because you experience something personally doesn't necessarily make it real for everyone else.

[edit on 29-8-2007 by Metalmind]

reply to post by Jenna

would consider 8 years of reading the bible daily, going to every church service I could get to, and joining bible study groups counts as studying the bible. And I certainly looked for the answers to my questions in it, but found nothing to answer my questions.

I'm sorry that happened to you. I found someone that answered mine and it has opened my eyes and ears to understanding. I'm still learning but it is a joy.

The answer above applies here as well, and as I've said in a previous post my experience was very real to me. I was a true convert till I started thinking for myself.

You should think for yourself and ask questions. If they aren't answered keep searching and ask Father for help. What are you thinking that brings such unbelief to your mind?

Once again, read the first answer. I did study the bible. I've read it cover to cover more times than I can count. Believe what you will, but I did study it. As for the whole sin thing, I no longer believe that I am responsible for what two people supposedly did thousands of years before I was even born. I reject the assertion that we are all born guilty of something that we did not personally do. I'll take the blame for the things I have personally done wrong, but I refuse to be the whipping-boy for something I had no part in.

Of course I believe you studied - so did I, with the same result, until I found a terrific teacher. I have a difficult time with the Adam and Eve sin too. What it says to me is that because of what they did we all have to die a physical death. Some say Adam was to live forever until then. No one has to be a "whipping-boy" for another. That isn't what is meant by that. We are only responsible for what we do.

Actually, I blame the starving children and the ones being blown up on the people who are doing the starving and blowing up. It's apparent to me that if God was able to prevent those actions from happening, he would. Since he doesn't prevent it, that tells me that either he doesn't care or he has no power to prevent it. I would however like to know how you justify all the deaths that have been caused in the name of Christianity. One religion is not that different from the other if they both feel justified in killing in the name of their god. And once again, I don't believe in Satan/the devil/whatever you want to call him.

He cares and He has the power to prevent it. I can't justify the deaths done in the name of any religion. There are reasons for wars and will be until this age is over. We fight against Satan, whether you do or do not believe in him. He is real.

The problem I have here is that I am perfectly capable of not killing, stealing, or coveting anybody without the aid of a god or a list of "thou shalt not's". I am perfectly capable of not doing any of those things because I see them as wrong, and saw them as wrong prior to me becoming a believer. Becoming a nonbeliever didn't change that. I don't need some man in the sky to tell me that killing is wrong.

Good. If everyone was like that this would be heaven. It isn't.

No one, I repeat - no one, is condemned to hell until after the millennium, .....Well now that depends on who you ask and which particular version of Christianity you follow. The way I read the bible, if you believe you go to heaven, if you don't then your only remaining option is hell. Guess I know where I'm going!

Don't listen to religion. Read His Word and only go by that. Test everything you are taught against His Word. Read Rev. 20 about what happens before, during and after the millennium. You sound like a good person that is searching. What would you do to save a child of yours? God loves us like that. He won't give up on you so keep searching.

reply to post by souls

I started reading the bible, then I put it down when I started to come across things like the following, withing the bible. For some reason it does not make sense of a loving god...

Deu.21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
20.And they shall say unto the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.'
21.And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

God is a loving God but there are big "If's" attached to His love. A rebellious, gluttonous, stubborn, drunken child will not receive that love. What He is teaching here is that those that live a life like that will not be received by Him. Their death will be a spiritual death. It is our choice.

God is not a powderpuff. He tells us He is a vengeful and jealous God as well as being full of love and mercy - He will be obeyed. The rules are simple and are there for our benefit. Follow them or not but know there are repercussions.

reply to post by cheeser

faith is defying rationality, hence ignorant.
having absolute certainty on anything, or not having any doubt is also ignorant. its ignorant not to be subjective and challenge things.

Why do you believe a Christian wouldn't be subjective and challenge ideas? That usually brings greater understanding.

your god loves ...slavery ......discrimination (homosexuality, sexism) ...killing atheists ...or is this just a misinterpretation?

Why do you believe He loves slavery?

Homosexuality is an abomination. He doesn't discriminate against it He detests it. The wonderful part of Christianity is that a homosexual can stop living that way, repent and he is forgiven. It is his/her choice.

What specific part of sexism are you referring to?

"Killing atheists". Where does He say that?


...Whirlwind

reply to post by Metalmind

I too was one who searched for God and I know the Bible better then most self professed good Christians. The biggest argument I have against the Christian God is simply this. Supposedly he is a being of love. I am only human. Yet, in my heart could I condemn anyone to suffer for all eternity? No, I couldn't. Even the worst people will eventually have served there sentence. If I a lowly mortal can think this way then what does that say about this God of love?

He is not just a "God of love" but also a God of jealousy and vengeance . He has feelings just like we do and He has power over our souls. He requires very little - our love.

I'm sure you do know the Bible well but when it is written that they will be thrown in the lake of fire that is it. Their soul is gone, finished, over. Not frying in a fire like a piece of bacon. What kind of heaven would it be to see Aunt Kathy in constant agony?

For those that say we have searched in the wrong places and asked the wrong people I provide this excerpt from one of Mother Theresa's letters....."Where I try to raise my thoughts to heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul. Love -- the word -- it brings nothing,"....
So then did she look in the wrong place too? They say this struggle was part of God's plan. He was testing her. Yeah, that's sounds real nice.
Be careful of experience. Just because you experience something personally doesn't necessarily make it real for everyone else.

No one knows what another goes through or why. It is between that person and God. I'm not a Catholic and read a lot in the Bible that tells us their form of worship is against God's wishes. Perhaps He wasn't answering her because she was practicing worship in a way that He specifically told us, as His children, not to. I don't know.

Originally posted by whirlwind
Why do you believe a Christian wouldn't be subjective and challenge ideas? That usually brings greater understanding.

your god loves ...slavery ......discrimination (homosexuality, sexism) ...killing atheists ...or is this just a misinterpretation?

Why do you believe He loves slavery?

Homosexuality is an abomination. He doesn't discriminate against it He detests it. The wonderful part of Christianity is that a homosexual can stop living that way, repent and he is forgiven. It is his/her choice.

What specific part of sexism are you referring to?

"Killing atheists". Where does He say that?


...Whirlwind

Think about this deeply whirlwind, if you've ever met homosexuals, you'd know it's not a choice. it is the equivalent of me asking you to like another man sexually. You can't do that huh? You know why, because you're just not made up to like another man. Ask a homosexual to stop liking men and start liking women and he won't be able to do that either. That is who he is. Guess what? The Christian God says he makes all things. He has planned all things and all things happen as a result of his will! Is that correct? Yes, that is what he says. That also means that he creates homosexuals. People who are born as homosexuals are all part of his plan. He created them. He created the way they are. So...you God creates abominations? Is he not perfect? Ofcourse he is. Therefore, either the part about him being perfect is wrong, or the part that he creates all things as a result of his will is wrong, or the part that shunning & killing homosexuals is wrong. Something is wrong there. Because clearly homosexuality is not a choice my friend. This is why I truly believe the bible & the Christian God to be made by man. That god did not create us...we created him. Any real God will not have such faults in his literature that man can question. it will all be harmony. Everything would be...perfect. But it's clearly not so.

And yes, God says to kill all athiests...even people of other religions, simply because he says, who does not believe in him must die.

As for god's love of slavery...read the bible and you'll see time after time that he encourages it. Not to mention that women should have no right speaking in church. Your god is no God. He is a representation of an ignorant mind. A true metaphor of a foolish man. An @ssh**e!

reply to post by sdrawkcab

Think about this deeply whirlwind, if you've ever met homosexuals, you'd know it's not a choice. it is the equivalent of me asking you to like another man sexually. You can't do that huh? You know why, because you're just not made up to like another man. Ask a homosexual to stop liking men and start liking women and he won't be able to do that either. That is who he is. Guess what? The Christian God says he makes all things. He has planned all things and all things happen as a result of his will! Is that correct? Yes, that is what he says. That also means that he creates homosexuals. People who are born as homosexuals are all part of his plan. He created them. He created the way they are. So...you God creates abominations? Is he not perfect? Ofcourse he is. Therefore, either the part about him being perfect is wrong, or the part that he creates all things as a result of his will is wrong, or the part that shunning & killing homosexuals is wrong. Something is wrong there. Because clearly homosexuality is not a choice my friend. This is why I truly believe the bible & the Christian God to be made by man. That god did not create us...we created him. Any real God will not have such faults in his literature that man can question. it will all be harmony. Everything would be...perfect. But it's clearly not so.

I agree with some of what you are saying. Being a homosexual may be their cross to bear. They may be one but they do not have to act upon it. Someone may be an alcoholic or drug addict but they cannot continue to drink or take drugs. Someone may wish to kill but they cannot. Someone may want to steal a car but they cannot. There are rules to live this life by, regardless of what one wishes to do.

When you say "God creates abominations", I would answer - No, He doesn't. He created us and He loves us but the things we choose to do can be abominations, not us.

As far as "faults in His literature that man can question", did you ever consider that He wants us to question, to study, to learn? If it was simple we would become disinterested in a very short time.

And yes, God says to kill all athiests...even people of other religions, simply because he says, who does not believe in him must die.

They will die spiritually if they don't believe. Where does it say to kill all atheists?

As for god's love of slavery...read the bible and you'll see time after time that he encourages it. Not to mention that women should have no right speaking in church. Your god is no God. He is a representation of an ignorant mind. A true metaphor of a foolish man. An @ssh**e!

You will have to find the scripture about slavery. I haven't ever seen where He encourages it (I may be wrong but I need to be shown).

Paul does teach that a woman shouldn't speak in church. I would imagine a man speaking and interrupting the sermon would be frowned upon too. As far as teaching, Paul does say, "But I suffer not a woman to teach." But there are other places where women are teaching - So....I don't have an answer for you on that.


...Whirlwind

Originally posted by h3akalee

I AM AN ATHEIST YET I BELEIVE IN GOD WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ?

Is there an answer ?

[edit on 26-8-2007 by h3akalee]

Perhaps . . .

the answer is . . .

1. Your definitions are more permeable than most folks normally consider definitions to be.

Put another way . . .

You have a rubber dictionary. Words tend to mean what you wish them to mean at the moment.

2. That can make dialogue with folks who's dictionaries are more . . . consistent over time . . . dialogue with them can then be difficult.

3. It's not clear whether ATHEIST or GOD or both are most . . . rubbery

or

4. BELIEF/BELIEVE is most rubbery compared to the above two.

5. It might be that REBELLION is a more consistent but obscure, hidden, denied sort of term, reality, state . . .

and the other rubbery definitions are merely pretend . . . clever dancing and foot-work to justify the rebellion in pseudo-intellectual clothing.

&/or

6. It's all a charade to disguise, justify tweaking religionists . . . who . . . for family-of-origin/psychodynamic reasons are favorite targets.

Originally posted by whirlwind
I'm sorry that happened to you. I found someone that answered mine and it has opened my eyes and ears to understanding. I'm still learning but it is a joy. *SNIP* You should think for yourself and ask questions. If they aren't answered keep searching and ask Father for help. What are you thinking that brings such unbelief to your mind?

I won't share the experiences I've had beyond what I've previously stated about them. No offense, but they are between me and your God and if he exists then he knows exactly why I no longer believe in or follow him. I stopped believing/following him after a long time spent reading the bible and asking him for guidance. I got nothing.

Of course I believe you studied - so did I, with the same result, until I found a terrific teacher. I have a difficult time with the Adam and Eve sin too. What it says to me is that because of what they did we all have to die a physical death. Some say Adam was to live forever until then. No one has to be a "whipping-boy" for another. That isn't what is meant by that. We are only responsible for what we do.

I'm glad you found someone who was able to answer your questions. We aren't all as lucky and some of us just end up with more questions that can't be answered. I have trouble with the assertion that Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge. If that were true then there would have been no need for a tree of life. Since the tree of life was indeed in the garden of Eden, according to the Bible, that tells me that they were not created immortal. They were as mortal as you and me. And I have come across far too many people who do believe that we are all guilty of the "original sin", which is why I stated I won't be their whipping-boy.

He cares and He has the power to prevent it. I can't justify the deaths done in the name of any religion. There are reasons for wars and will be until this age is over. We fight against Satan, whether you do or do not believe in him. He is real.

If he cared and had the power to prevent it, he would do so. Seeing as how he does nothing to prevent it, he either doesn't care or doesn't have the power, as I've stated previously. Those are the only remaining options based on the state of the world we live in.

I don't believe in Satan because I have a hard time believing there's some guy with a pitchfork whispering in my ear and causing me to do bad things. The way I see it, if you do something wrong you did it because you wanted to at least a little bit. If I were to go outside and shoot a neighbor, it wouldn't be because I had a little devil on my shoulder telling me it was a good idea. It would be because I wanted to shoot them.

Don't listen to religion. Read His Word and only go by that. Test everything you are taught against His Word. Read Rev. 20 about what happens before, during and after the millennium. You sound like a good person that is searching. What would you do to save a child of yours? God loves us like that. He won't give up on you so keep searching.

I've read Revelations.. Multiple times actually. What would I do to save my child? I would kill to keep my child safe. I would do anything necessary to ensure my child was not harmed in any way. But I most certainly would not allow him to starve or die a horrible death because of something he didn't do. I would not tell him that if he didn't love me and believe in me he was going to be put in the oven to bake for all eternity. I would not manipulate my child into doing what I wanted him to do with threats of being cast away from me for disobeying a single thing I said. Why would I not do any of those things? Because that is not what a loving parent does.

Originally posted by JohnDoe43
Before you start your next thread about God and begin attacking religious text, read the text as I'm convinced a majority of you haven't, and then seriously consider what it says.

Excellent advice; I agree. I don't see it being heeded, much, but at any rate, it is a logical suggestion.

reply to post by Jenna

I won't share the experiences I've had beyond what I've previously stated about them. No offense, ...

None taken. I didn't mean to be nosy I just wondered if I might be able to help you with anything.

I'm glad you found someone who was able to answer your questions. We aren't all as lucky and some of us just end up with more questions that can't be answered. I have trouble with the assertion that Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge. If that were true then there would have been no need for a tree of life. Since the tree of life was indeed in the garden of Eden, according to the Bible, that tells me that they were not created immortal. They were as mortal as you and me. And I have come across far too many people who do believe that we are all guilty of the "original sin", which is why I stated I won't be their whipping-boy.

So do I. You may have to do what I did and realize a lot of what we have been taught is from men. They are fallible, just as we are. As far as I know the Bible doesn't say they were supposed to live forever:

Gen.3:22 And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

So....Was that saying they were supposed to live forever? I don't think so. Also, the Tree of Life is Christ and the tree of good and evil is Satan. Just something else to consider.

If he cared and had the power to prevent it, he would do so. Seeing as how he does nothing to prevent it, he either doesn't care or doesn't have the power, as I've stated previously. Those are the only remaining options based on the state of the world we live in.

He moves His elect to do what He wants done. He will not do that to others. They must find their way on their own unless they ask for Him to guide them - the good and the bad.

I don't believe in Satan because I have a hard time believing there's some guy with a pitchfork whispering in my ear and causing me to do bad things. The way I see it, if you do something wrong you did it because you wanted to at least a little bit. If I were to go outside and shoot a neighbor, it wouldn't be because I had a little devil on my shoulder telling me it was a good idea. It would be because I wanted to shoot them.

Satan would love for us to think of him like that. So much easier to fool us when he comes at the end of days pretending to be Christ. So many, including most Christians, will follow him, never knowing the truth.\

I've read Revelations.. Multiple times actually. What would I do to save my child? I would kill to keep my child safe. I would do anything necessary to ensure my child was not harmed in any way. But I most certainly would not allow him to starve or die a horrible death because of something he didn't do. I would not tell him that if he didn't love me and believe in me he was going to be put in the oven to bake for all eternity. I would not manipulate my child into doing what I wanted him to do with threats of being cast away from me for disobeying a single thing I said. Why would I not do any of those things? Because that is not what a loving parent does.

I go back to God will move His elect but He cannot, or will not, do anything to those of free will. There is a reason, a very deep lesson, but I don't know if you are ready or able to understand in your present frame of mind. It is terrible to see the suffering in this world but this is not heaven. One day.........


.......Whirlwind

reply to post by MajorMalfunction

Children believe there is a Santa Claus, and they actually have more "evidence" of that particular fictional character's existence than people have for god. But that doesn't mean there is a Santa Claus, and that doesn't mean there is a god either.

Simple question Major. Though based on past experience will probly not be answered or some wierd attempt at side stepping the question will happen.
Can you 100% prove that there is no god/goddess or gods/goddesses of any sort, not just the wrathful you will bow on your knees and stick your nose up my holy arse and those of my priesthood types while telling me what a swell thing I am? Yay or nay?

Oh and thread starter guy. Someone can read and read and read the text but thats just what it is TEXT. Might as well be reading a copy of Lord of the Rings written a gazillion years ago. That text maybe the cornerstone of your faith and thats fine, believe what you want. But don't expect your beliefs to bleed through to everyone else. Anyone who attempts to tell you your (or anyones whether or not they agree) beliefs are wrong is a fool for a great many reasons and even the smartest person can be a fool at times. And I might add no I am not christian but I strongly believe in people's right to believe what they want without the BS that usually happens (inquision, crusades, various forms of snobbery etc and so forth).

Oh and there is a historical basis for Santa Claus he was a real person. Saint Nicholis I think. But you probly already knew that.



[edit on 31-8-2007 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by Ellipsis
I do not deny or accept the existance of a divine being.

I believe having faith in yourself is and always has been the most essential belief we need.

The biggest conspiracy in the world is the demoralizing of society and alienation and distance we feel from people we meet everyday.

It saddens me to read that fear determines belief. So many people thinking in their minds that believing by default out of fear of the unknown saves them from eternal damnation.

Do not live in fear, but acceptance and open-mindedness, and then find the divinity within yourself and then you will be capable of great things.

Back on topic:

These boards are for the skeptic and the believer alike. rather then coming here asking others to change their posts and ideas, come here and post your beliefs and share your experiences and let people take from it what they will.

WELL SAID!

Originally posted by BO XIAN

Originally posted by h3akalee

I AM AN ATHEIST YET I BELEIVE IN GOD WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ?

Is there an answer ?

[edit on 26-8-2007 by h3akalee]

Perhaps . . .

the answer is . . .

1. Your definitions are more permeable than most folks normally consider definitions to be.

Put another way . . .

You have a rubber dictionary. Words tend to mean what you wish them to mean at the moment.

2. That can make dialogue with folks who's dictionaries are more . . . consistent over time . . . dialogue with them can then be difficult.

3. It's not clear whether ATHEIST or GOD or both are most . . . rubbery

or

4. BELIEF/BELIEVE is most rubbery compared to the above two.

5. It might be that REBELLION is a more consistent but obscure, hidden, denied sort of term, reality, state . . .

and the other rubbery definitions are merely pretend . . . clever dancing and foot-work to justify the rebellion in pseudo-intellectual clothing.

&/or

6. It's all a charade to disguise, justify tweaking religionists . . . who . . . for family-of-origin/psychodynamic reasons are favorite targets.

ANOTHER WELL SAID STATEMENT!!!!!!

Eh there is no clapping ones.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Anyone who attempts to tell you your (or anyones whether or not they agree) beliefs are wrong is a fool for a great many reasons and even the smartest person can be a fool at times. And I might add no I am not christian but I strongly believe in people's right to believe what they want without the BS that usually happens (inquision, crusades, various forms of snobbery etc and so forth).
[edit on 31-8-2007 by WraothAscendant]

Yeh i agree, but look what happened in the past when people had their own beliefs which are different to the church. That sure worked great
The people with the beliefs are they ones saying others are wrong. The other BS that happens is being burnt on the stakes.

The sad thing is, it is mostly the believers that's causing the problems.

reply to post by AncientVoid

Yeh i agree, but look what happened in the past when people had their own beliefs which are different to the church. That sure worked great
The people with the beliefs are they ones saying others are wrong. The other BS that happens is being burnt on the stakes.
The sad thing is, it is mostly the believers that's causing the problems.

Once again intolerance is a human trait, there are no mystical fields that make what a person believes change how much more or less tolerant they will be of whatever.

And yes, organized religion bad. I agree with you. But to let humanity off the hook by blaming it on big bad organized religion and pretending it is a exclusively a trait of organised religion is silly and completely disconnected from reality.

Do you blame Nazism on Germany and let racism off the hook?

You show a LARGE amount of intolerance (of religion) yourself and justify it by saying "Well they did it first", which is largely what your arguments say. Does that make it right? Ethically speaking.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by WraothAscendant]

Shouldn't religion always be correct? Since there's no way to prove god exists. If one part of it gets disproved, what are the chances the whole thing is wrong? I would say high. Especially when they go into loads of details.

At the heart of most wars, it comes down to religion...


[edit on 8-9-2007 by AncientVoid]

[edit on 8-9-2007 by AncientVoid]