Ignorance and God

reply to post by Jenna


"Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Maybe you thought you understood it. If you had truly understood, you never would have stopped believing. "

No, I understand it alright. I was a hardcore believer at one time until I started asking questions. That's when it started to fall apart for me. Once I started asking tough questions that none of the church leaders, or my family members, could answer without either contradicting themselves (while quoting the bible, I'd like to point out) or deciding that the devil was after me. It was only once I stopped being a blind follower and started thinking things through that I finally really understood the hypocrisy and lies I had bought into.

You should ask questions and those answers should be in the Bible. Perhaps you were asking the wrong people. Many, even church leaders, just don't know themselves. There are no lies in the bible, (the original manuscripts).

Being baptized doesn't mean you are automatically saved. Baptism is an outward expression of obedience to Jesus Christ. Without a prior salvation experience, and an unshakeable inward commitment to Christ, you are just getting wet.....Depends on your definition of a salvation experience. All experiences are subjective, and what I believe to qualify as a religious experience you may see as being nothing important and vice versa. The religious experiences I had prior to my baptism were real enough to me to convince me, at the time, that there was indeed a God.

Many times, not all, people are brought to God through emotion. Emotion fades. True conversion does not. Even with a true religious experience it must be followed up with study, prayer and learning the "meat" of His Word. That meat will sustain you, not the milk of salvation over and over again, which most churches seem to practice.

Basically, I came to the conclusion that I could no longer follow a God that can be likened to a parent heating up the oven while telling their child "Love me and do everything I say, or I'll put you in the oven." I no longer have it in me to follow a God who claims to want us all to be happy and be with him for all eternity after our death, yet allows hundreds of innocent children to die every day by starvation, being blown up, burning alive, etc., and resorts to threats of hell in order to assure our compliance with his rules.

I understand how you feel but that paragraph shows that you have not studied His Word. He sent His Only Son to die for our sins. He loves us. He gives us every chance, over and over again, to accept Him.

Do you blame the starving children in Africa and the children being blown up on Him? This country, this Christian Nation, sends food and who keeps it from the children, who blows their own child up in the name of their god? Those that are led by the adversary. This is an evil world, an evil time and we must endure it trying to make changes where and when we can. We are to make Satan His footstool. We, His children. How are we doing?

He does have rules and those are for us. If we follow them we will have a happy and productive life. We won't steal, kill each other, etc. The rules are for our benefit. No one, I repeat - no one, is condemned to hell until after the millennium, which is yet another chance He gives us, His unbelieving and undeserving children. God loves us and wants our love in return.

How did God send his only son?

I mean that's what I can't get my head around? If God is EVERYTHING?
Then how can Everything have a son?

Jesus didn't die for us either, he was murdered by us... nailed to a big cross.


Also this virgin birth thing doesn't wash with me either... Maybe Mary had been raped and was too ashamed to admit it?!

--

Also why has nobody answered my questions from PAGE 2 yet?

reply to post by mr-lizard


You answered that yourself. Here.

So many more questions... so little time.

I urge you to lift your questions up to the Lord via the translation of the Holy Spirit, in prayer. That is where all true answers can be found. The Lord answers our prayers via His Word, circumstance, and happenstance. Getting to know the Holy Spirit as your interpreter goes a long way toward answering those questions.

Also, I would suggest having some patience and asking your questions one or two at a time rather than shotgunning them into one post. That is one of the many beauties of ATS, the thread format, where discussions can draw out deep insight by carefully and patiently building on previous posts.

No offense intended, just trying to help.

reply to post by mr-lizard

What exactly is god anyway?

He is the great I AM.

Or are we talking about the more traditional god like the muslims and christians believe in, the creator, the judge and the bloke who sits in his magic castle in heaven.

There is no comparison in the two. There is God and there is their god. They are not the same.

Why if people swear by the holy book (quran or bible), why then do they still stick to the primitive belief that the world was created in seven days by a God who made humans in his own image? Why then do the book(s) fail to mention the fact that giant reptillian creatures wandered the planet for thousands upon thousands of years? Is this just a simple oversight or maybe a revelation that the books are just man made explanantions of a world they couldn't understand? ...Is there a god of dinosaurs?

They stick to primitive beliefs because they are not taught properly. I don't know much about the quran, nor do I wish to learn (what I did learn was enough to know who they worship). The Bible tells us that this world was billions of years old before the beginning of this age but the teachers don't realize that. They teach we are made in His image because it is true. There is no evolution, it is a theory, not a truth. The Bible does teach about dinosaurs - Job 40:15 .

What happened to Odin and Thor and Ares and Ramses and Thoth and all the gods of the old world? Did they die? Did they only apply to the Romans and Greeks and egyptians? What would happen if people started worshipping Thor again?

If anything lives in the flesh it dies. If they were real they would have been some of the giants Gen. 6 tells us about, the "men of renown".

Why do Christians/muslims only believe in one God? Yet Hindu's believe in thousands of Gods? Who is right?

There is only one God. He isn't a piece of wood, or idols (as Hindu's worship), nor is He the god muslims worship.

If an atheist is a person who disbelieves in God, yet the Christians disbelieve all the Hindu and pagan and greek gods, then surely Christianity is closer to atheism than Hinduism? After all they would only be one God away from atheism?

No. Christianity believes in the one true God. The other gods are not real and God warns us He is jealous.

Are hindu's going to go to hell for believing in fake gods? Or are the christians limiting themselves and thus denying themselves entrance to heaven due to the fact they have a very judgemental God?

No one is going to hell, at least until after the millennium. After they have been taught without the influence of Satan.

Why do Christians never ever see Vishnu or Kali or Shiva when they have holy visions? Why do muslims never see visions of Mary or the angels?

There is no Vishnu, etc. Why would a Christian want to see them? Muslims do have angels. Muhammad was visited by one - guess which one. As far as I know, only Catholics see Mary. Is she really appearing? I don't know.

Continued:


......Whirlwind

reply to post by mr-lizard


Part 2:

Why do some Christians believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

They don't know any better and believe if they think any differently it would mean they didn't believe in the Bible. There are references in the bible that tell of the age before the one we are presently in. Gen. 1:1 tells us that, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. It didn't say when that was but science tells us it was billions of years ago. This age started in the last 1/2 of vs. 2 - And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

If evolution has been proven on many an occasion, then did God create evolution as a way of improving his 'perfect' life forms?

Evolution has not been proven. At no time did a species become another species. There are changes, or evolving if you prefer, in one species. They adapt. That is a God given attribute but they do not become a new species. The skulls, etc. scientist tell us are ancient human are ancient ape. Schools teach this theory as if it is gospel and it is not. Do not be fooled.

Why does a merciful God allow child abuse and war and murders to happen on his gift to man (earth?)

This age is a spiritual war between good and evil. Until this age ends and Christ returns we will have to endure the evil and do what we can to fight it.

If as some religions would have us believe, we are the ONLY life in the Universe, then why did God bother making those BILLIONS and BILLIONS of other planets and suns and stars and galaxies?

Because religions are man made. Christianity is not a religion but is a way of life. The Bible contains many scriptures that tell us of visitors. Some are angels, some are fallen angels. Who knows if there are others.

What would happen if an atheist saved a paedophile priests life? Does the priest still got to heaven and the atheist go to hell?

Do you believe that anyone, even a so-called priest, would be allowed to be with righteous people after committing that crime? As I said before, no one (except Satan and his fallen angels) have been condemned to hell yet. All will be taught without the influence of Satan through the millennium and they will be tested at it's end to see where they go. Also, why would an atheist want to save the life of a paedophile? Why would anyone?

Reincarnation? If as the Christians and muslims believe that when we die we go to heaven/hell/limbo... then how on earth can reincarnation take place as believed by the buddhists etc?

It will not. There is no reincarnation. You are assuming that because these different religions believe in something that it is correct. It isn't. It doesn't mean buddhists are evil. They, as Muslims and many Christians, have not been taught the truth, as contained in His Word. That is what the millennium is for.

......Whirlwind

reply to post by mr-lizard

How did God send his only son? ...I mean that's what I can't get my head around? If God is EVERYTHING? Then how can Everything have a son?

The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not an easy concept. I understand it like this. In this dimension we cannot see the Father/ God. We must be in our spirit bodies for that. He sent/became Christ in this dimension so we know that what He expects us to do, how we are to live our lives, is possible because He too did it. He knows that we are not perfect so He endured the crucifixion in a flesh body for our sins. If we repent, we are forgiven. The Holy Spirit is our comforter. He watches over us, brings comfort and understanding. He leads, guides and directs our lives so we will be of use to God. We are of use by bringing His word to others.

Jesus didn't die for us either, he was murdered by us... nailed to a big cross.

Do you think He couldn't have avoided that? He came to earth for that purpose.

Also this virgin birth thing doesn't wash with me either... Maybe Mary had been raped and was too ashamed to admit it?!

Life and birth itself, in the normal way, is a great mystery. What makes a tiny seed germinate and become a beautiful flower. If we can't understand that but know it happens just extend that wonder to the birth of Christ. Know it happened. Some things are for us to know and understand, others are for us to hold in wonder.

.......Whirlwind

whirlwind
Christianity believes in the one true God. The other gods are not real and God warns us He is jealous.

There is only one God. He isn't a piece of wood, or idols (as Hindu's worship), nor is He the god muslims worship.

As I said before, religious people are atheists regarding all other 'gods'.

You go a step further in your ignorance and arrogance:

I don't know much about the quran, nor do I wish to learn (what I did learn was enough to know who they worship).

There is no Vishnu, etc. Why would a Christian want to see them? Muslims do have angels. Muhammad was visited by one - guess which one

Wow, and this one .......So, millennium is for a big 'crusade'!?

There is no reincarnation. You are assuming that because these different religions believe in something that it is correct. It isn't. It doesn't mean buddhists are evil. They, as Muslims and many Christians, have not been taught the truth, as contained in His Word. That is what the millennium is for.

[edit on 28-8-2007 by blue bird]

reply to post by blue bird

As I said before, religious people are atheists regarding all other 'gods'.

This statement is complete nonsense.

atheist - a person who believes there is no God

You can't just make up your own meaning for words and have them accepted by others. Well, you can if you want, but it makes you look like a complete fool.

As I understand it, the original Greek meaning for theos, the root of the word theist, was possibly "watcher, or one who sees." So, an atheist is someone who is not watching, not seeing, not paying attention. In other words, a fool.

Considering what was said above, it would seem that the word theos possibly meant something like "watcher", or, "he who sees". That agrees quite well with Greek mythology as well; there, the theoi, who were many, were often considered to be "watchers".
source

[edit on 28-8-2007 by Icarus Rising]

theist
1662, from Gk. theos "god" (see Thea) + -ist. The original senses was that later reserved to deist: "one who believes in a transcendant god but denies revelation." Later in 18c. theist was contrasted with deist, as allowing the possibility of revelation. Theism "belief in a deity" is recorded from 1678; meaning "belief in one god" (as opposed to polytheism) is recorded from 1711. Theistic is attested from 1780.

source

reply to post by JohnDoe43


You had me at ignorance.

Personally I am trying to figure out how this thread as well as many others are not moved to BTS, since I see nothing conspiratorial about them. Just people voicing their view of their beliefs and why everyone else is wrong.

That being said, why is it ignorance to deny something that a person may or may not believe in? This is a big assumption on your part don't you think? Why should I have to have the same faith and beliefs as you or anyone else? This is not a religious message board. This in not a place for you or anyone else to come a make broad generalizations about those who are different than you.

Try living outside of the box. There are many religions; there are no religions. One God; no God. But to say people are ignorant because they do not feel the same as you is inane.

reply to post by blue bird

As I said before, religious people are atheists regarding all other 'gods'....You go a step further in your ignorance and arrogance:

There are no other gods. There is one God. To believe otherwise is to be devoid of knowledge.

Wow, and this one .......So, millennium is for a big 'crusade'!?

Crusade? You show your ignorance. It would benefit you to read about the one that owns your soul - whether you believe He does or not.

reply to post by blue bird


Your point? Your incorrect usage of the word 'atheist' is only further underscored by the definition you posted. Not posting any commentary along with your definition leads me to believe you now know you are using the word incorrectly.

Thank you. Have a good day. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Peace!

reply to post by bobafett1972

Personally I am trying to figure out how this thread as well as many others are not moved to BTS, since I see nothing conspiratorial about them. Just people voicing their view of their beliefs and why everyone else is wrong.

I'm new - what is BTS?

Originally posted by whirlwind
You should ask questions and those answers should be in the Bible. Perhaps you were asking the wrong people. Many, even church leaders, just don't know themselves. There are no lies in the bible, (the original manuscripts).

I would consider 8 years of reading the bible daily, going to every church service I could get to, and joining bible study groups counts as studying the bible. And I certainly looked for the answers to my questions in it, but found nothing to answer my questions.

Many times, not all, people are brought to God through emotion. Emotion fades. True conversion does not. Even with a true religious experience it must be followed up with study, prayer and learning the "meat" of His Word. That meat will sustain you, not the milk of salvation over and over again, which most churches seem to practice.

The answer above applies here as well, and as I've said in a previous post my experience was very real to me. I was a true convert till I started thinking for myself.

I understand how you feel but that paragraph shows that you have not studied His Word. He sent His Only Son to die for our sins. He loves us. He gives us every chance, over and over again, to accept Him.

Once again, read the first answer. I did study the bible. I've read it cover to cover more times than I can count. Believe what you will, but I did study it. As for the whole sin thing, I no longer believe that I am responsible for what two people supposedly did thousands of years before I was even born. I reject the assertion that we are all born guilty of something that we did not personally do. I'll take the blame for the things I have personally done wrong, but I refuse to be the whipping-boy for something I had no part in.

Do you blame the starving children in Africa and the children being blown up on Him? This country, this Christian Nation, sends food and who keeps it from the children, who blows their own child up in the name of their god? Those that are led by the adversary. This is an evil world, an evil time and we must endure it trying to make changes where and when we can. We are to make Satan His footstool. We, His children. How are we doing?

Actually, I blame the starving children and the ones being blown up on the people who are doing the starving and blowing up. It's apparent to me that if God was able to prevent those actions from happening, he would. Since he doesn't prevent it, that tells me that either he doesn't care or he has no power to prevent it. I would however like to know how you justify all the deaths that have been caused in the name of Christianity. One religion is not that different from the other if they both feel justified in killing in the name of their god. And once again, I don't believe in Satan/the devil/whatever you want to call him.

He does have rules and those are for us. If we follow them we will have a happy and productive life. We won't steal, kill each other, etc. The rules are for our benefit.

The problem I have here is that I am perfectly capable of not killing, stealing, or coveting anybody without the aid of a god or a list of "thou shalt not's". I am perfectly capable of not doing any of those things because I see them as wrong, and saw them as wrong prior to me becoming a believer. Becoming a nonbeliever didn't change that. I don't need some man in the sky to tell me that killing is wrong.

No one, I repeat - no one, is condemned to hell until after the millennium, which is yet another chance He gives us, His unbelieving and undeserving children.

Well now that depends on who you ask and which particular version of Christianity you follow. The way I read the bible, if you believe you go to heaven, if you don't then your only remaining option is hell. Guess I know where I'm going!

Originally posted by Icarus Rising

As I understand it, the original Greek meaning for theos, the root of the word theist, was possibly "watcher, or one who sees." So, an atheist is someone who is not watching, not seeing, not paying attention. In other words, a fool.

Why don't we just let the ancient greeks determine the root of 'theos':

Soc. Ought we not to begin with the consideration of the Gods, and show that they are" rightly named Gods?

Her. Yes, that will be well.

Soc. My notion would be something of this sort:- I suspect that the sun, moon, earth, stars, and heaven, which are still the Gods of many barbarians, were the only Gods known to the aboriginal Hellenes. Seeing that they were always moving and running, from their running nature they were called Gods or runners (Theous, Theontas); and when men became acquainted with the other Gods, they proceeded to apply the same name to them all. Do you think that likely?

Her. I think it very likely indeed.

classics.mit.edu...

So, from the verb 'theo', to run.

So, maybe we could say that atheists are patient and still, watching. Whilst theists are running around scared of the punishments of gods...

But that would be rather silly. As the word 'theos' was related to the gods themselves. So, even if we take 'watcher' as the true etymology, it would be related to the god(s) (i.e. god watching over you) rather than the believers. Thus, you would be the watched, and atheists would be, I suppose, the ignored.

The term 'atheos', just meant godless. And I think it is fine to use it the way blue-bird is using it, as Xians used to call pagans atheist, and pagans used to call Xians atheist. It was a term of contempt. So, it can just mean without a particular god.


[edit on 28-8-2007 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


Did you read my link to source at all, or just shoot from the hip on that one? Also, we started with the word theist, remember?

Read the definitions. Think it over. The way the word atheist was used by bluebird was incorrect, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Did you read my link to source at all, or just shoot from the hip on that one? Also, we started with the word theist, remember?

Read the definitions. Think it over. The way the word atheist was used by bluebird was incorrect, plain and simple.

Of course I read it. It is just an unreferenced webpage. Wouldn't you think that Greeks living around 2300 years ago might have a good insight into the source of their own words?

Even reading your own source, we can see that the etymology is related to the gods themselves, and not the believers, so your little extension into insulting atheists was in error:

That agrees quite well with Greek mythology as well; there, the theoi, who were many, were often considered to be "watchers".

So, there were many gods, and they were considered the 'watchers'.

Therefore, you are the watched.

As I said, 'atheist' was also a term of contempt used between believers. It means godless or ungodly, and this could be used in the sense of having no gods, or not having the one specific god.

Why do you think pagans used to call Xians atheists, and vice versa?

But, I agree that in its current usage, an atheist is a person without belief in any god(s) or godess(es). But, you weren't using current usage for theist or atheist at times, so what does it matter...

[edit on 28-8-2007 by melatonin]

And I admit that I shouldn't have insinuated that Mr./Ms. bluebird on your shoulder was a complete fool. The Christians are atheists crap got to me a little, I guess.

My bad, and my apologies to you and bluebird.

Peace!

I just have one question...why is my post totally ignored?

I found your post interesting, though nearly entirely hypothetical. Mostly what ifs. Difficult for me to respond to in any meaningful way.

I am familiar with Amenhotep as a possible origin for the word amen. What about it?

I'm curious what you think of the possibility that an individual could be persecuted for their faith and punished for their sin at the same time? This may actually be the case for many, even most people that are experiencing great suffering over long periods of time. A sort of spiritual no-man's-land, if you will, under attack from both sides, justly from one side, unjustly from the other.

If this is the case, what is it about these folks that draws such attention? Are they highly prized for their spiritual attributes? Or are they just misery magnets, the Schleprocks of Creation?

I know what I think. How about you?